Beale Poll....Fact or Fiction?

[bigscoop]

True, I AM not gonna consider anything, other than Bedford County/Lynchburg, VIRGINIA...

 

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[Rebel - KGC]

SO! Let's "see" what YOU got, shall we... "unarguably conclusive" ("post" # 56)...

 

[bigscoop]

SO! Let's "see" what YOU got, shall we... "unarguably conclusive" ("post" # 56)...

Not just yet, but I didn't dust off the archives without reason.

 

[lastleg]

Group:

Are we still talking about the Beale party discovering a large amount of gold
in strata along with native silver? If we are I would like someone to tell me
where in Colorado or anywhere some 300 miles north of Santa Fe such deposits occur. Certainly not at Cherry Creek. The 1859 placers were of
minimum values and it was gold not silver. The large silver lodes discovered
in the late 1800's were confined to the Leadville cabonate mines and the
San Juan tellurides. The Aspen area contained silver and the famous Creede
deposits were devoid of significant gold values.
Zebulon Pike reported hearing of placer gold coming from what was later
called the South Park district which is west of Pikes Peak. The Teller county
boom was the last huge gold discovery in Colorado. No silver either.
Now we have Rebel speaking of an altogether separate source for the
'treasure' being coined gold from the Civil War era some 42 years after the
Santa Fe journey. Again, no silver/jewels as described in the 'job' pamplet.

Now here is where I have trouble believing a morsel of this yarn: IMHO
Why would a group of intelligent men in 1819-1821 bury a king's ransom
only to abandon it and persue something more interesting or of greater
value and never return to cash in their chips?
Another point I have not heard addressed: TJB says they exchanged a
hefty amount of silver for 'jewels' in old St Louis. Who in their right mind
would take sacks/barrels of unsmelted silver ore in exchange for precious
gems and cut diamonds?
You have to realize that every foot of mineralised land in the western US
has been explored by countless prospectors, none of which to my knowlege
found mixed gold and silver of such proportions.

Is that what you call 'out of the box' reasoning?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

TY, ll... I will let Franklin answer YOUR questions that takes literal "meaning" from the BEALE PAPERS. I "specialize" in the CSA "cover story" version of it, and can ONLY "deal" the "2nd year of the CONFEDERATE WAR..." aspect (1863 or so); after Richmond, VIRGINIA "fell"., Lynchburg, VIRGINIA became the LAST state capital of VIRINIA, and THAT is MY focus! MORE later... gonna STORM!

 

[lastleg]

Thanks Reb

 

[bigscoop]

Group:

Are we still talking about the Beale party discovering a large amount of gold
in strata along with native silver? If we are I would like someone to tell me
where in Colorado or anywhere some 300 miles north of Santa Fe such deposits occur. Certainly not at Cherry Creek. The 1859 placers were of
minimum values and it was gold not silver. The large silver lodes discovered
in the late 1800's were confined to the Leadville cabonate mines and the
San Juan tellurides. The Aspen area contained silver and the famous Creede
deposits were devoid of significant gold values.
Zebulon Pike reported hearing of placer gold coming from what was later
called the South Park district which is west of Pikes Peak. The Teller county
boom was the last huge gold discovery in Colorado. No silver either.
Now we have Rebel speaking of an altogether separate source for the
'treasure' being coined gold from the Civil War era some 42 years after the
Santa Fe journey. Again, no silver/jewels as described in the 'job' pamplet.

Now here is where I have trouble believing a morsel of this yarn: IMHO
Why would a group of intelligent men in 1819-1821 bury a king's ransom
only to abandon it and persue something more interesting or of greater
value and never return to cash in their chips?
Another point I have not heard addressed: TJB says they exchanged a
hefty amount of silver for 'jewels' in old St Louis. Who in their right mind
would take sacks/barrels of unsmelted silver ore in exchange for precious
gems and cut diamonds?
You have to realize that every foot of mineralised land in the western US
has been explored by countless prospectors, none of which to my knowlege
found mixed gold and silver of such proportions.

Is that what you call 'out of the box' reasoning?

All "FANTASTIC" points! I'd also like someone, anyone, to show me where it says that there will be thirty names and residences in C3? "associates, relatives, parties,".......everything else regarding there being "thirty" anything "in C3" has been ONLY an "assumption" bitten on and chewed on by a long line of researchers.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

http://bealesolved.tripod.com/id11.html

 

[bigscoop]

Reb, Reb, Reb......... ........that explains it.......always something in your eye blurring your vision!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

AH, SO true, Franklin... When others can not PROVE "their" points, they start attacking! Coffee? AND! bs... the BIBLE sezs (JESUS); DO NOT worry about the "mites" in the eyes of others, when YOU can't even see the "MOTE" in YOUR own...

 

[bigscoop]

AH, SO true, Franklin... When others can not PROVE "their" points, they start attacking! Coffee? AND! bs... the BIBLE sezs (JESUS); DO NOT worry about the "mites" in the eyes of others, when YOU can't even see the "MOTE" in YOUR own...

AH, SO true, Franklin... When others can not PROVE "their" points, they start attacking! Coffee? AND! bs... the BIBLE sezs (JESUS); DO NOT worry about the "mites" in the eyes of others, when YOU can't even see the "MOTE" in YOUR own...

Wasn't attacking, just having some fun. Personally, I like you good natured fellas.
But I think if you'll refer to the Beale Pamphlet you'll discover that "Beale" and "several of his friends" set upon gathering no less then thirty men, who, in order to be stated into the party, would have to meet certain requirements and "sign" an agreement.
Going back to the thirty portions that remained after Morriss took his "single share", these were to be distributed "in equal shares". Keep that in mind.
Throughout the story the "party" is "seperated" many times, and the listed transfers were brought back by only a "portion" of the party. Nowhere in the story or letters is it stated that there will be thirty names and residences in C3, only that the treasure was to be divided into 31 equal shares and distributed to the names on the list. So, "could be" that there are only "ten names" on that list, each to be given three equal shares. "Perhaps"....the remaining "signed on" members of the party had already been given their "agreed shares."
Again, NOWHERE in the Pamphlet or letters is it stated that C3 will contain thirty names.
Ask yourself this question: If all of the men in the party were from the Bedford area, then why didn't they all come back with each of the transfers and to winter in Virginia? Even in Beale's letter to Morriss he explains that, "parties you have never heard of or met". This letter was written after Beale showed up at Morriss' stay in the company of other men, so if these men, "who Morriss had seen", were not members to Beale's party, then, "who were they?" And given Morriss' business and stated popularity in the region, how is it that Beale was so confident that Morriss had, "never heard of or met" any of the men in the party. And this is all the "food for thought" I'm putting out here, what you do with it and where you go with it is up to you.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I can ONLY answer from MY "angle" of R & I; The MASONIC Lodge is mentioned in the BP (BEALE PAPERS); in the "old days" men of importance in the community were USUALLY members, and Lynchburg, VIRGINIA in 1885 had 2 "Blue Lodges",
Marshall (1793) & Hill City (1858); JB Ward was mentioned as being a member of one, and was PROBABLY suspended for non-payment of annual dues; (NOT KKK "crap"). There were also MANY CSA vets/Masons, such as Max Guggenheimer, ESQ (BEALE PAPERS), and Newton Hazlewood (HART PAPERS). MANY REBEL (CSA) spies were also FreeMasons (who COULD keep secrets); I suspect that by 1885, the "players" were "Blue Lodge" (Master Masons), "Red Lodge" (Royal Arch Masons aka RAM), and "Black Lodge" (Knights Templar aka KT). We FreeMasons may NOT know each other's names, at first... BUT! We know the "signs & passwords"; names can come LATER. THAT is why Robert MORRISS, didn't "know" others in the "party" or COMPANY. Thom. J. Beale was elected "Captain of the Host", which is an OLD RAM phase, and others in the company MAY have been members of a CSA/RAM "enterprise". As we know, Robert MORRISS was entrusted with the Iron Box & ciphers, and was to get a "piece of the pie"; HE was PROBABLY a FreeMason, also... AND! If you had "guards",
PROBABLY CSA/KT, they were known as SENTINELS... we know of "BUCK" WT Wright & "BEAR" Tolley; "BUCK" claimed to have been with the Cole Bros. Gang, and at death had the scars of FRANK JAMES (CSA) & MD. Less is known about "Bear", but he IS buried in Buchanon, VIRGINIA, and I think he was a CSA vet, also.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

We FreeMasons may NOT know each other's names, at first... BUT! We know the "signs & passwords"; names can come LATER. THAT is why Robert MORRISS, didn't "know" others in the "party" or COMPANY.

That doesn't explain WHY that many men would not be known in such a small community.

 

[bigscoop]

We FreeMasons may NOT know each other's names, at first... BUT! We know the "signs & passwords"; names can come LATER. THAT is why Robert MORRISS, didn't "know" others in the "party" or COMPANY.

That doesn't explain WHY that many men would not be known in such a small community.

I think it's also important to understand that, "the unknown author" wasn't confided in, "until after he agreed to certain contingencies". And this is prior to the later contingencies he explains in the pamphlet. This should give you a good idea as to who/what the unknown author was, and likewise explain his, "important business in Richmond." It should also explain why he couldn't risk using his own name.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

KK, not all FreeMasons do "advertise" themselves as such; even here in Lynchburg, VIRGINIA, I don't know ALL of 'em by name. You looking for 30 men? I COULD probably find "membership" in lodges from the Grand Lodge of VIRGINIA during the times of interest, if records were not destroyed, and some were... during the CONFEDERATE WAR.
bs, the "important business in Richmond"... COULD have been the pending "downfall" of Richmond, VIRGINIA (CW), and the importance of Lynchburg, VIRGINIA "readying itself"... to be the LAST state capital of VIRGINIA. I think Thom. J. Beale is a "cover name" for a "cover game" against the FEDS (US Gov't); too many REBEL (CSA) leaders living in the Lynchburg/Bedford County area, after the CONFEDERATE WAR, that NEVER surrendered... EARLY, MUNFORD, etc.

 

[lastleg]

Franklin,

Sorry but I can find no active silver mines still operating in CO. All the remaining gold producers naturally find silver as a by-product. The Cresson
mine at Victor is reworking the old gold producing mines with new technology
but silver is not the objective. Gold at $1500 per troy oz vs silver at less than
$50. The ore there is calaverite or sylvanite and does not look like the pictures
of gold nuggets you have seen. I have some of this ore and it appears as
shiny brass colored. The values are locked in a ditelluride volcanic rock
aggregation. The Pikes Peak rush in 1859 started around Denver as you
stated but those placers were exhausted rapidly and miners moved west to
Gregory Gulch, Blackhawk, Central City and others.

If you have some inside knowlege of producing silver mines on the west side
of Pikes Peak I would enjoy learning their location for my next trip to Cripple
Creek.

Thanks,
lastleg

 

[Rebel - KGC]

HA! My 34 going on 35 year(s) old nephew told me that he was a part-owner of a GOLD mine near Denver, Colorado (he lived there); it was STILL "producing"; his BD is Friday, so will ask him which mine (if I see him).

 

[lastleg]

Thanks Reb.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

An update R & I from Lynchburg, VIRGINIA library, today; in "post" (topic) # 82, I mentioned "Buck" WT Wright as a SENTINEL (aka "guard") of the BEALE TREASURE; also known as the "mystery man" (Mountain Man) of Upper Goose Creek Valley; a doctor noticed his scars AND Masonic Ring! Then TODAY, I researched the rosters of local REBEL units, and found p. 77 of LYNCHBURG IN THE CIVIL WAR by G. Morris/S. Foutz... THOMAS W. Wright of the
11th VIRGINIA Infantry - The JEFF DAVIS GUARD, Co. H! Is THIS THE "Buck" Wright of Upper Goose Creek
Valley, NORTH of Bufords/Montvale, VIRGINIA? Co. H of the 11th VIRGINIA Infantry! JEFF DAVIS GUARD!
AND! Max Guggenheimer (BEALE PAPERS) HOME GUARD, Co. G (Lynchburg area) (p. 67). Newton Hazlewood (HART PAPERS), was a SGT! H. GREY'S/LATHAM's BATTERY... 38th Battalion , Co. D - VIRGINIA LIGHT ARTILLERY
(Lynchburg Artillery) (p. 96). Will look at Franklin's list, and do R & I... looking into other info, too!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Hmmm... THOMAS Taylor Munford (CSA Gen.) & Jubal Early (CSA Gen.) NEVER surrendered after the CONFEDERATE WAR; THOMAS J. BEALE/BEALL; was the "treasure" named in honor of John Yates BEALE/BEALL, who was hung by the yanks? THOMAS J. BEALE/BEALL. TT Munford was WEALTHY after the CW, and so was JA Early; BOTH buried in Lynchburg, VIRGINIA! LGA! Jubal Early WAS the HEAD of the CSA Dept. of WESTERN VIRGINIA (appointed by Gen. Robert E. Lee), who DID visit Lynchburg, Peaks of Otter, Bedford County... Gen. Lee was a FRIEND of Pachal Bufford, and stayed over-night with him, in 1868, I think.