Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO JOE: Agreed in principal, but when it comes to finally, legally, removing the bars from Tayopa, just how many would be needed to fulfill the Archaeological requirements 1 - 10 - 100 , or the entire lot?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[Highmountain]

You've sure posted some fascinating photos HM!

I understand where CJ is coming from regarding whatever artifacts (if any) are being taken from the site you have views of. That said, I mentioned once before that I may be pretty certain what I would do if I found myself in a situation such as yours, but I'm not, so you have to do what you have to do and live with, and it sounds like you are and can.

Lately I find myself thinking quite often about the whole world of archeology, treasure hunting, illegal artifact recovering, etc... and I have such mixed emotions. I know this is off topic a bit, but hopefully you'll give me a little slack and let me express my thoughts.

One of the biggest drawbacks to illegal artifact recoveries is the loss of knowledge that could come from trained professionals and scholars studying the items "in situ" so to speak. Volumes of information are gathered before the first artifact actually is removed and cataloged - in fact, I believe that from an archeological standpoint, the artifacts themselves are worth far less than the stories they can tell about those who made them, used them, discarded them, etc... It's sad to know that there is a disregard for that knowledge amongst those who are just out to collect and/or make a $.

Then of course there is always the argument that those artifacts should be housed and displayed for the world to see - after all, many should really belong to all of mankind, and not individuals. This is where I start to have more mixed feelings. I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of artifacts discovered end up catalogued and boxed/shelved in basements, archives and other storehouses to likely never see the light of day again. At least if they end up in an individual's collection, they can be displayed and admired on a regular basis - some of the individuals may be scholars or at the least folks such as us who would spend hours researching each item and enjoying the history behind them.

I know that technically, many of the items I've found over the years with my detector and/or just by exploring and searching should be turned over to the state as an antiquity - much as any other detectorist's finds. I'm "small potatos" though - the things I've found have minimal monetary value, but I can tell you that I look at many of them over and over again. I study them, research them, think about how they got there, who left them/lost them, etc... I'm positive they get more scrutiny by me than they would be any state or historical organization. I also show them to friends and fellow detectorists, we talk about them, compare them, etc... In short, they have a GREAT DEAL of meaning to me - more so than any government agency.

When it comes to large scale artifact discovery such as may be happening in your area, I guess it's a different story because of the value (both monetary and historical), but as you yourself have said, it could be the government, preservationists, etc... doing the work now anyways.

I guess I find myself in an ethical quandry - on one hand I believe if I were witness to what I suspect to be a large scale illegal artifact recovery, I would find a way to contact an authority to at least check into it. On the other hand, I have handled coins 200+ years old that legally should have been turned over to the government (despite the fact that the condition and value of the coin may be < $5) and I know they are in private collections.

I have a difficult time in my mind saying that one is not ok and should be reported, while the other is ok - they're both technically illegal, and it doesn't seem right to have "degrees" under which I would act differently.

Ahh well, I'm really just venting my frustration here - not really looking for any enlightenment or answer - it's just something that enters my mind when I read threads such as these.

Thanks for the reply, observations and ruminations. You and I think along the same lines in a lot of ways and share some of the same values. Mine might be mitigated to weigh in in favor of mistrust of government, archeologists, and one particularly wealthy American citizen [and the power each wields] more than you, but I've done my own hand-wringing about it.

My motto in later life has been, if I can't change it, it ain't my business. In this case I might be able to change it, or I mightn't. I weight the two possibilities to be about equal. But what I can most assuredly do is make some enemies and quite possibly get a bullet into my neck for my troubles next time I go into the woods or just out the front door. So for a 50/50 [or less] chance of changing things for the better I make a lot of waves, mess up my own prospects for enjoying myself in the woods, assure that whole area will have a battalion of Security all over it to keep me from doing legal gold prospecting anywhere within miles.

Added to that is the fact the people I'd be reporting it to have demonstrated time and again ad infinitum they hold values I hold in contempt and that they see me and everyone kindred of spirit to me as dogs to be whipped and kept at heel every way they have the power to do.

But I'd be rewarded. The reward I'd get would be knowing I was a low-down tattle-tale rat who was willing to act on those 50/50 odds in favor of getting a lot of people tossed into the slammer because I thought saving a bunch of rocks and minerals was worth more than the freedom of people I don't even know who are or why they're doing what they're doing.

For me it's not a tough call. But I do think it's a shame.

J

 

[cactusjumper]

Jose,

My concern is primarily with the carved Aztec deity, and other artifacts of that nature. I can see a decided difference between that and gold......or silver bars. Those items could have been cast by anyone. An authentic carving of Metztli would change history. The gold bars are a sidenote.

Considering the work that is said to be done there, it seems a bit of a stretch that the gold bars would be left behind while the perp's are taking a nap back home, or getting a fresh supply of cold beer. You would suspect they might, at least, throw a little dirt over the loot.

Considering the fact that they rode to the site, anyone following their tracks would end up at the site. One wonders how they found it in the first place, and how Jack found it in the second. Something led him to that spot.......and it was not cheap to get there. That much gold, and it would not be hard to put together a small group to steal it from under their absent noses.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Highmountain]

Jack,

assuming there is any truth in your story. I assume there is, so a moral judgement seems fair.

Bottom line is: Next week you will still need those tires. Maybe you should find another way to get them. Something that does not involve bars of gold or Aztec artifacts.

You may round-file this advise with the rest of my posts.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Assuming there's any truth to what you claim to believe and how you claim you'd act under these circumstances, I'll respond in the same spirit. I don't care a whit what you speculate you'd do.

Having said that, I did stretch out the limits of what I'd told myself I'd allow myself to post in hopes of giving you a more thorough look at some of the things you claim you want to see. Went to a considerable bit of trouble to do it. So if you can break yourself away from second-guessing and proselethyzing to me about what I ought to do long enough, feel free to study what I posted.

Take care
Jack

 

[Highmountain]

Jose,

Considering the fact that they rode to the site, anyone following their tracks would end up at the site. One wonders how they found it in the first place, and how Jack found it in the second. Something led him to that spot.......and it was not cheap to get there. That much gold, and it would not be hard to put together a small group to steal it from under their absent noses.

Take care,

Joe

I've been searching for a particular lost gold mine almost half my life. A good friend has been searching for something different, surprisingly so, an equally long while and spending a lot of money doing it, along with as much time and research as I've done.

As pieces of the two puzzles came together they led to a particular place.

I honestly don't know why I'm answering all this snide innuendo and holier-than-thou moralizing of yours or attempting to provide you with anything. Consider it at an end.

Jack

Edit: I haven't ended this topic. I've ended discussing it with one individual. If anyone else wants to continue in an atmosphere of mutual respect and civil discourse I'll do my best to reciprocate.

 

[cactusjumper]

Jack,

I don't have to assume what I would do here, and neither do you. Send me the coordinates and I will have no problems getting the information to the proper authorities. Should people start turning up missing or dead, there might be a fuss made by....someone.

Since it is already being looted, I should think you would not worry about me running over to New Mexico and adding to the miniature gold rush.

If Ted Turner is involved, it would all be gone already, not laying around for you to take pictures of. The pilot of your chopper would already be dead, likely you would be as well. Ted would have hauled all that gold into a big helicopter and it would be in his basement now. Same story with the government. They would not allow anyone to get close enough to take pictures.

Other than that, it's a great story. It will be interesting to see how it all ends. I see your next post has ended it. That's fine with me, and we can return to our other topics. Good luck and good hunting.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Cubfan64]

The photos you had up earlier of the 2 large "statue" rocks were really interesting. My gut tells me they are natural formations, but they sure do resemble persons.

I don't recall if there was alot of "debris" at the base of them - indicating of course that shaping of the rocks took place. You don't have to re-post the photos - I have a feeling you're concerned you may already be giving away too much information - but refresh my memory if you would - there wasn't a great deal of rock debris below them was there?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

GENTLEMEN?? My, my, my, It brings up an interesting thought, If I were to find Alladin's Lamp, would I turn it over to the gov't or the Academic groups??

You cottin pickin right I would, "after", I had fulfil ed my needs of females, gold, various possesions & toys, physical health, etc. etc. etc for the next 70 +years.

Hmm come to think of it, why even then? I could go for eternal beauty and youth, but then, shucks, I have that already.

Well I can always rejuvenate ORO to join me, heck why stop there , why not all of my friends and fellow THr's also both male and FEMALE..

Hmmm come to think of it, the gov't and Archaeologists can go find their own Lamp!

Don Jose de Mancha - Greedy possessor of Alladin's Lamp.

p.s. seriously CJ, if the gov'ts, and the present mind set of our Archaeological groups would only be reasonable and frankly, practical, things such as this would readily turn up. But as it is, the seeker takes all of the risks, expenditures of $ and limited life, but receives none of the benefits in return, not even recognition. Under these conditions what can one expect?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

CUNFAN: May I touch you with Alladin's Lamp also?

I agree 100%, the formations are 100% natural. It is fairly easy to establish this beyond your remarks on debris.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. HI MT, I presume that you want honest opinions, not yes people?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

PEEPS: BB, I thought that you had sold the farm some months ago to finance the dutchman hunt?? so ?----> i got some work to do on the farm and dont have as much time as i had
~~~~~~~~~~~~H
hmmmm
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High Mt, you posted --->

There's a broken D-Handle shovel in the upper right for comparison.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Can you clarify this? All I can see is a natural play of shadows and cofigurations

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI PEEPS: For general information, the 7 ciudades of Cibola were finally found in the Barranca of Conijaqui on the Sinaloa / Durango border. Semi-officially established as such in the 1940's.

They used iron pyrites (fools Gold) to paint their buildings with. Large deposits and stucco remains were full of it. In the Sun it would appear to be Gold, especially from a distance.

All 7 areas have extensive Buffalo - "Cibalo" - figures carved and drawn in them as well as figurines..

It is now a National preserve, reachable by Aircraft, Mule or foot, but last that I had heard, not by wheeled vehicles.

Soo, in many ways Estaben WAS telling the truth, just had his directions and distances mixed up.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. LilOrpahnAnnie, do you know of this?

.

 

[Highmountain]

The photos you had up earlier of the 2 large "statue" rocks were really interesting. My gut tells me they are natural formations, but they sure do resemble persons.

I don't recall if there was alot of "debris" at the base of them - indicating of course that shaping of the rocks took place. You don't have to re-post the photos - I have a feeling you're concerned you may already be giving away too much information - but refresh my memory if you would - there wasn't a great deal of rock debris below them was there?

The two are located on a fairly steep slope and the camera didn't catch the bottom, so it's hard to tell. A lot of the sides and backs of each of them have weathered rock with a lot of patina, while the [hypothetically] 'worked' parts are entirely free of patina, or almost so. There's considerable amount of the weathered rock in chunks behind them, somewhat less at the base of the right one, which is the only one of the two giving a view of the base. There's a lot of small rubble so small a person can't tell much about it at the base of the right one, but it mightn't have have anything to do with the shape of the big rock. Sort of wedged at the base of the left one there's a cement-like conglomerate consisting of what might, or mightn't have been worked off the big ones.

If the rocks are actually worked I have the feeling it was more by a rasping or sanding of the surface than by chipping and chiselling. But if they're worked, I also have a stong suspicion neither was ever finished.

If they're worked at all the best evidence is probably found on the stone slab next to them. Bottom corner has what appears to be a bas-relief lizard and above and larger a bas-relieve torso of something with a face and helmetlike headgear.

 

[Highmountain]

*************************************************************************************

High Mt, you posted --->

There's a broken D-Handle shovel in the upper right for comparison.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Can you clarify this? All I can see is a natural play of shadows and cofigurations

Don Jose de La Mancha

Nope. Sorry.

Thanks for the opinion and observations

J

 

[Highmountain]

CUNFAN: May I touch you with Alladin's Lamp also?

I agree 100%, the formations are 100% natural. It is fairly easy to establish this beyond your remarks on debris.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. HI MT, I presume that you want honest opinions, not yes people?

Interested in knowing your viewpoint but indifferent as to what it might be. Those rocks aren't going anywhere. Whether they're natural or worked will be determined by a closer look on the ground. The outcome probably won't be the result of a tallying of votes by those of us who had to settle for a view from a distance.

Thanks for the comments
J

 

[Highmountain]

HI PEEPS: For general information, the 7 ciudades of Cibola were finally found in the Barranca of Conijaqui on the Sinaloa / Durango border. Semi-officially established as such in the 1940's.

They used iron pyrites (fools Gold) to paint their buildings with. Large deposits and stucco remains were full of it. In the Sun it would appear to be Gold, especially from a distance.

All 7 areas have extensive Buffalo - "Cibalo" - figures carved and drawn in them as well as figurines..

It is now a National preserve, reachable by Aircraft, Mule or foot, but last that I had heard, not by wheeled vehicles.

Soo, in many ways Estaben WAS telling the truth, just had his directions and distances mixed up.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Sounds pretty iffy to me Jose. The archeologists of the 1940s still had a lot to learn and these had the incentive to find what they hoped to find so's to get on the map. I'd have strong reservations about believing it's actually Cibola.

Just my thinking.
J

 

[cactusjumper]

Jose,

"HI PEEPS: For general information, the 7 ciudades of Cibola were finally found in the Barranca of Conijaqui on the Sinaloa / Durango border. Semi-officially established as such in the 1940's."

The legend of Cibola originally dates back to 1150. Special attention should be paid to that date.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good afternoon CJ mi buddy: you posted --->

The legend of Cibola originally dates back to 1150. Special attention should be paid to that date.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Obviously, but to date, I had assumed that the basic knowledge and been given to the Spanish by Estaben

I also believe that it was gloriied by the crown to stimulate private explorations to the north at no expense to the crown itself..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI HIGH MT: you posted--->

Interested in knowing your viewpoint but indifferent as to what it might be.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interesting divergence factor here.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi high my friend: You posted --->

Can you clarify this? All I can see is a natural play of shadows and cofigurations

Don Jose de La Mancha

Nope. Sorry.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
HI, by "clarify" I only wished for you to place it accurately on your photograph, nothing more. I do not pry at anyone's secrets.. Just as I haven't posted 1 / 4 of my data on Tayopa, nor will I until it is over.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI HIGH Mountain: you posted --->

Sounds pretty iffy to me Jose. The archeologists of the 1940s still had a lot to learn and these had the incentive to find what they hoped to find so's to get on the map. I'd have strong reservations about believing it's actually Cibola.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is very true even today.

I have yet to find an accepted archaeological paper "denying" that this may well be the true 7 Ciudades of Cibola..

As a matter of fact, overwhelming evidence points to this as being it. None of the others have come up with a single bit of physical evidence comparable to this, to disprove it.

As another example, whether I believe Azlantis existed or not, is immaterial. So far, it , as wild as it seems, has far more logic to back it up than the theory that the Aztecs came from the mound builder areas.

Don Jose de La Mancha