Aztec, Cibola, Zuni, Estevan Quivara and related gold-like conjecture

[Highmountain]

I have to agree wholeheartedly there....more of us are interested, even fascinated.....yet I feel I am not educated enough at this point to join in the discussion....I do, however, read and learn. I am enjoying this thread a great deal! Thanks!

HI HIGH: You posted --->

We seem to be the only ones interested in the subject.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Definitely not true, but with my limited experience on the subject, I am afraid that I could add nothing of importance at this moment. I already have formulated ideas and probabilities, but they need to mature a bit first.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Thanks to both of you. I'd honestly feel better about things if you were hanging it out over the edge with speculations and ideas same as I'm doing, but I can understand why you'd be reluctant to.

Somebody, Oroblanco, I think, mentioned corn and it's been slipping my mind to answer though I've had it earmarked.

I think our modern concepts of corn production methods might be one of the ways we've demonstrated how ghastly closed-minded we are because of our long European traditions of how it should be done.

Along the road east from Chichen Itza there are a series of lava flows keeping the jungle back. Over time soil's accumulated in the pockets all over them as will happen. But today the descendants of those ancient Mayans are farming corn in those pockets and getting what appears to be fairly good production from the effort.

A pocket of soil a couple of inches deep and three feet in diameter might produce four corn-stalks and more than a dozen ears of corn. Interestingly, they appear to put off harvesting it until it's needed, just leaving it on the stalks to cure in the weather.

If we moderns were doing things that way every yard flowerbed would be producing enough corn to cut down on the grocery bills, while keeping us from entirely losing seed stock that germinates [as has pretty well already happened] to be replaced by seed-corn hybridized to prohibit germination so's the farmers will have to buy seed corn every year.

The ancients everywhere were probably pretty good at maximizing food production by a lot of means we'd never consider today.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

"But the upper-Gila has more secrets than a monkey on a 50 foot rope has tricks."

Not sure how many secrets the upper-Gila holds, but there is much that is known.

"The country on all sides of those mountains would have been rich for growing crops and having a good life if the climate of the time was a bit more moist. On the other hand, in the Gallos to the north and northwest there are ruin complexes in areas that frequently don't see the ground from November/December until the spring melt. I've often wondered whether they got their water during those times by melting snow and ice, or whether even those were seasonal dwellings and only appeared to be year-'round to someone poking through their ruins. If they wintered there they were hardier folk than even the toughest a person might expect."

Perhaps some of the "secrets" you write about, can be explained with an examination of the Cochise culture that lived there. There is no way to compare the climatic conditions between then and now, other than to say they are worlds apart. Annual rainfall for the upper-Gila was around 70" as the glaciers were retreating from the area. The Paleo-Indians moved quickly (relatively speaking) into the mountains of the upper-Gila. They were "hardier folk" and used to cold weather living.

The corn seed was brought in from Mexico by traders. Zea Mexicana became the crop that allowed the Cochise people to stay in one place for a long period of time. In addition they planted beans, peppers, squash and melons.

"The Gila Cliff Dwellings site's been nagging at me. I've always believed it was some sort of supply-way-station for someone migrating, but always thought it was the folk living immediately northward. Everything about that site's always been a head-scratcher. Too much corn found stored there to have been grown there, still scads of corn stored when the site was abandoned, and it wasn't occupied long enough to make any sense."

If the Aztec migrated along the Gila River, they did so in large groups/tribes spread out over hundreds of years, just as the legends state. As they moved towards their final homeland, they would stop and build towns and always a temple. When that group got ready to move on, some of the people stayed behind. They would be expecting, eventually, another tribe of the family of Aztecs, to come over the same trail. If they wanted to survive, they might want to provide surplus stores of corn to keep those larger masses of people moving down the line.

Each time a tribe would pass through one of these "towns", they would leave behind the sick and the elderly. Those left would add to the town's workforce and they would continue to grow corn, and other crops. Once the last tribe of Aztecs passed through, this supply of workers would eventually die out completely. Thus the towns would also die.

A good deal of the above is conjecture, but it is based on the archaeological and natural history of the Gila River and the legends of the Aztec Indians, as told to Fathers Duran and Sahagun by the those who survived the conquest.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Highmountain]

Gentlemen,

"But the upper-Gila has more secrets than a monkey on a 50 foot rope has tricks."

Not sure how many secrets the upper-Gila holds, but there is much that is known.

"The country on all sides of those mountains would have been rich for growing crops and having a good life if the climate of the time was a bit more moist. On the other hand, in the Gallos to the north and northwest there are ruin complexes in areas that frequently don't see the ground from November/December until the spring melt. I've often wondered whether they got their water during those times by melting snow and ice, or whether even those were seasonal dwellings and only appeared to be year-'round to someone poking through their ruins. If they wintered there they were hardier folk than even the toughest a person might expect."

Perhaps some of the "secrets" you write about, can be explained with an examination of the Cochise culture that lived there. There is no way to compare the climatic conditions between then and now, other than to say they are worlds apart. Annual rainfall for the upper-Gila was around 70" as the glaciers were retreating from the area. The Paleo-Indians moved quickly (relatively speaking) into the mountains of the upper-Gila. They were "hardier folk" and used to cold weather living.

The corn seed was brought in from Mexico by traders. Zea Mexicana became the crop that allowed the Cochise people to stay in one place for a long period of time. In addition they planted beans, peppers, squash and melons.

"The Gila Cliff Dwellings site's been nagging at me. I've always believed it was some sort of supply-way-station for someone migrating, but always thought it was the folk living immediately northward. Everything about that site's always been a head-scratcher. Too much corn found stored there to have been grown there, still scads of corn stored when the site was abandoned, and it wasn't occupied long enough to make any sense."

If the Aztec migrated along the Gila River, they did so in large groups/tribes spread out over hundreds of years, just as the legends state. As they moved towards their final homeland, they would stop and build towns and always a temple. When that group got ready to move on, some of the people stayed behind. They would be expecting, eventually, another tribe of the family of Aztecs, to come over the same trail. If they wanted to survive, they might want to provide surplus stores of corn to keep those larger masses of people moving down the line.

Each time a tribe would pass through one of these "towns", they would leave behind the sick and the elderly. Those left would add to the town's workforce and they would continue to grow corn, and other crops. Once the last tribe of Aztecs passed through, this supply of workers would eventually die out completely. Thus the towns would also die.

A good deal of the above is conjecture, but it is based on the archaeological and natural history of the Gila River and the legends of the Aztec Indians, as told to Fathers Duran and Sahagun by the those who survived the conquest.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Hi Joe: Thanks for the reply. I'm getting the impression you and I aren't referring to the same place when we use the terms 'upper Gila' and 'headwaters of the Gila'. I'm probably just somewhere upstream of you, which can create some confusion. I'm not familiar with the 'Cochise Culture'.

Chronology's also sometimes difficult to nail down. I haven't actually carried my thinking back to the paleos. Not to say they aren't somehow involved. Ooparts seem to have a way of showing up when and where they're least expected and can throw monkey-wrenches into discussions of chronology with the ease of a splined shaft slipping through a clutch assembly.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Jack

 

[cactusjumper]

Morning Jack,

"It may be that you only need to look at the area near the headwaters of the Gila River. The inland sea that existed there was 120 square miles in size. Should the Aztecs originally have lived on an island in this sea, the population may have become to large to continue living there, thus creating the need to migrate. You would need to adjust the actual time of the Aztec migrations to a much, much earlier date, but who's to say how old the legends really are. The Gila was both a trade and migration route. Once Highmountain starts considering the Gila River area as having an Aztec connection, it becomes a fertile field of investigation....IMHO."

The headwaters of the Gila originate from the Mogollon, Black, and Pinos Altos mountains. Three streams with their feeders gather together in the Gila Basin to form the birthplace of the Gila River. Is that the same place you are talking about?

Roy,

Pre-conquest number are always a bit of a crap shoot, but the methodology for estimating populations grows better every year, and with every turn of the spade. Early Aztec population figures, estimated by William T. Sanders, show a population for the Valley of Mexico of 175,000. Late Aztec numbers rise to 920,000.

The Aztec population underwent a huge surge between 1200 and 1500, partially brought about by the end of 500 years of abnormally dry conditions.

It's hard to imagine any migrations of groups larger than hundreds, but I suppose it's possible. That would be especially true if they stopped at likely places for decades at a time, as the legends suggest. If the Aztec calender was borrowed when they arrived in Mexico, their own estimates of the time it took to complete the migration may have been off......by a few thousand years.

Chapter 3 in Michael Smith's book, "The Aztecs" is labeled "People on the Landscape". It deals with "How Many Aztecs?" There is a wide disparity between the studies, but Smith lays out the conclusions in easy to read/understand terminology.

It does not seem that the Aztecs entered Mexico in a warlike manner. Rather, they seemed to drift in over generations and eventually grew into the dominate culture.

Gold was not at the top of the value list for the Aztec. They were puzzled by the Spanish lust for the yellow metal.

More opinions here, so nothing to get excited about.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Highmountain]

Gentlemen,

"But the upper-Gila has more secrets than a monkey on a 50 foot rope has tricks."

Not sure how many secrets the upper-Gila holds, but there is much that is known.

"The country on all sides of those mountains would have been rich for growing crops and having a good life if the climate of the time was a bit more moist. On the other hand, in the Gallos to the north and northwest there are ruin complexes in areas that frequently don't see the ground from November/December until the spring melt. I've often wondered whether they got their water during those times by melting snow and ice, or whether even those were seasonal dwellings and only appeared to be year-'round to someone poking through their ruins. If they wintered there they were hardier folk than even the toughest a person might expect."

Perhaps some of the "secrets" you write about, can be explained with an examination of the Cochise culture that lived there. There is no way to compare the climatic conditions between then and now, other than to say they are worlds apart. Annual rainfall for the upper-Gila was around 70" as the glaciers were retreating from the area. The Paleo-Indians moved quickly (relatively speaking) into the mountains of the upper-Gila. They were "hardier folk" and used to cold weather living.

The corn seed was brought in from Mexico by traders. Zea Mexicana became the crop that allowed the Cochise people to stay in one place for a long period of time. In addition they planted beans, peppers, squash and melons.

"The Gila Cliff Dwellings site's been nagging at me. I've always believed it was some sort of supply-way-station for someone migrating, but always thought it was the folk living immediately northward. Everything about that site's always been a head-scratcher. Too much corn found stored there to have been grown there, still scads of corn stored when the site was abandoned, and it wasn't occupied long enough to make any sense."

If the Aztec migrated along the Gila River, they did so in large groups/tribes spread out over hundreds of years, just as the legends state. As they moved towards their final homeland, they would stop and build towns and always a temple. When that group got ready to move on, some of the people stayed behind. They would be expecting, eventually, another tribe of the family of Aztecs, to come over the same trail. If they wanted to survive, they might want to provide surplus stores of corn to keep those larger masses of people moving down the line.

Each time a tribe would pass through one of these "towns", they would leave behind the sick and the elderly. Those left would add to the town's workforce and they would continue to grow corn, and other crops. Once the last tribe of Aztecs passed through, this supply of workers would eventually die out completely. Thus the towns would also die.

A good deal of the above is conjecture, but it is based on the archaeological and natural history of the Gila River and the legends of the Aztec Indians, as told to Fathers Duran and Sahagun by the those who survived the conquest.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe: I'm probably guilty of not having given as much study or weight to the various Aztec traditions reflected in codices as you have and do. In much the same way I don't entirely reject, say, the Zuni tradition that they emerged to the surface of the earth from a hole in the ground, I don't entirely reject it, but I don't rely on it too heavily in establishing the origins of the Zuni.

Just my particular prejudice.

Jack

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hio peeps: A few more random thoughts --->

A) Pyramids all have the same basic footprints simply because this was the max height to base factor that took in natural side / surface cohesion. until one goes to cut stone construction and surfacing, this is normally the max height structure that could be built with primitive construction techniques and materials.. It does not in itself indicate a passing of knowledge from one group to another.

B) If the Aztecs arrived only say a few 100 years before the Arrival of the Spanish - Bernal? - then there would be quite a bit of evidence still available today, including stories handed down from that time, however?

At Tayopa they have stories from their great grandparents, which indicate that the mines and treasures are still intact.

In most primitive societies they used the elderly women as verbal references / depositiries of history, especially marriages and births. Even today, many elderly women can recite the lineage of almost everyone in their town or village.

C) The only body of water which could conceiveably fit the description is the Caribean. This poses the uncomfortable possibility of Atlantis. There is a curious similarity between , Aztlan - Atlantis ??

D) The curious legend of bearded men coming in boats during the Aztec time of Montezuma adds to it This legend probably would not have come from the mound builders, but --------?.

E) So if we are allowed a wide amount of wild speculation, I would say that the mysterious Aztlan/ Atlantis theory, while wild, is the most logical.

F) This is basically the only explanation which would account for the complete lack of any evidence of the Aztec evolution and emigration from the north.


Enough controversy for today hehehehh

Don Jose de La Mancha alias Danekin

 

[Cynangyl]

Hmmm definitely brings up a lot to contemplate controversial or not!

 

[Highmountain]

Gentlemen,

"But the upper-Gila has more secrets than a monkey on a 50 foot rope has tricks."

Not sure how many secrets the upper-Gila holds, but there is much that is known.

"The country on all sides of those mountains would have been rich for growing crops and having a good life if the climate of the time was a bit more moist. On the other hand, in the Gallos to the north and northwest there are ruin complexes in areas that frequently don't see the ground from November/December until the spring melt. I've often wondered whether they got their water during those times by melting snow and ice, or whether even those were seasonal dwellings and only appeared to be year-'round to someone poking through their ruins. If they wintered there they were hardier folk than even the toughest a person might expect."

Perhaps some of the "secrets" you write about, can be explained with an examination of the Cochise culture that lived there. There is no way to compare the climatic conditions between then and now, other than to say they are worlds apart. Annual rainfall for the upper-Gila was around 70" as the glaciers were retreating from the area. The Paleo-Indians moved quickly (relatively speaking) into the mountains of the upper-Gila. They were "hardier folk" and used to cold weather living.

The corn seed was brought in from Mexico by traders. Zea Mexicana became the crop that allowed the Cochise people to stay in one place for a long period of time. In addition they planted beans, peppers, squash and melons.

"The Gila Cliff Dwellings site's been nagging at me. I've always believed it was some sort of supply-way-station for someone migrating, but always thought it was the folk living immediately northward. Everything about that site's always been a head-scratcher. Too much corn found stored there to have been grown there, still scads of corn stored when the site was abandoned, and it wasn't occupied long enough to make any sense."

If the Aztec migrated along the Gila River, they did so in large groups/tribes spread out over hundreds of years, just as the legends state. As they moved towards their final homeland, they would stop and build towns and always a temple. When that group got ready to move on, some of the people stayed behind. They would be expecting, eventually, another tribe of the family of Aztecs, to come over the same trail. If they wanted to survive, they might want to provide surplus stores of corn to keep those larger masses of people moving down the line.

Each time a tribe would pass through one of these "towns", they would leave behind the sick and the elderly. Those left would add to the town's workforce and they would continue to grow corn, and other crops. Once the last tribe of Aztecs passed through, this supply of workers would eventually die out completely. Thus the towns would also die.

A good deal of the above is conjecture, but it is based on the archaeological and natural history of the Gila River and the legends of the Aztec Indians, as told to Fathers Duran and Sahagun by the those who survived the conquest.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe: I'm probably guilty of not having given as much study or weight to the various Aztec traditions reflected in codices as you have and do. In much the same way I don't entirely reject, say, the Zuni tradition that they emerged to the surface of the earth from a hole in the ground, I don't entirely reject it, but I don't rely on it too heavily in establishing the origins of the Zuni.

Just my particular prejudice.

Jack

The overwhelming evidence probably supports Atlantis but it just seems more likely to me it was a hybridization between folk from the Folsom time and ancient Sumerians. They were transported to Mexico by helicopter in groups of seven as required by the sages and prophesies of the time.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI HIGH: Cute one, hehehehh--->

The overwhelming evidence probably supports Atlantis but it just seems more likely to me it was a hybridization between folk from the Folsom time and ancient Sumerians. They were transported to Mexico by helicopter in groups of seven as required by the sages and prophesies of the time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hehehe, Prob just an tongue in cheek joke which is possibly just accurate as the Atzlan / Atlantis theory whidh seems to have much more logic to back it up than the idea of originating in the north. The northern eveloution carries no evidence so far of this, nor does their curious lack of bringing any evidence with them in their migration.

So far, evidence of Aztec evoloution = zero., so the idea that they migrated from the north has zero actual evidence so far - odd..

Question, do you believe in the Atlantis thingie as having possibly existed??

Dopn Jose de La Mancha alias Danekin II

p.s. You wanted odd bits and questions tossed in here High, no? sooooo- you posted -->

The assumption would probably have been it's natural as the default choice.
~~~~~~~~~~
Any reason why this isn't correct?

 

[Highmountain]

HI HIGH: Cute one, hehehehh--->

The overwhelming evidence probably supports Atlantis but it just seems more likely to me it was a hybridization between folk from the Folsom time and ancient Sumerians. They were transported to Mexico by helicopter in groups of seven as required by the sages and prophesies of the time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hehehe, Prob just an tongue in cheek joke which is possibly just accurate as the Atzlan / Atlantis theory whidh seems to have much more logic to back it up than the idea of originating in the north. The northern eveloution carryies no evidence so far of this, nor does their curuous lack of bringing any evidence with them in their migration.

So far, evidence of Aztec evoloution = zero., so the idea that they migrated from the north has zero actual evidence so far - odd..

Question, do you believe in the Atlantis thingie as having possibly existed??

Dopn Jose de La Mancha alias Danekin II

p.s. You wanted odd bits and questions tossed in here High, no? sooooo- you posted -->

The assumption would probably have been it's natural as the default choice.
~~~~~~~~~~
Any reason why this isn't correct?

I don't generally include Atlantis among my speculations about history. Has nothing to do with Atlantis and whether it existed or didn't, so much as the fact I'm getting along in years and time's a bit limited for what I choose to explore, or don't.

Jack

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Jack: You posted -->

Has nothing to do with Atlantis
~~~~~~~~~~~

You know this for sure ? Since no other conflicting data has yet to be posted And it does have MORE logic to fit it than any of the others, -----? Whether I believe it or not is irrelevant, it must be disproved beyond a shadow of a doubt to eliminate it, this cannot be done easily.
**************************************************************************************

You also posted -->

the fact I'm getting along in years and time's a bit limited for what I choose to explore, or don't.
~~~~~~~~~~~

Obviously correct, but it applies equally to any age. However, progressive knowledge is always welcome to me in any form. Even if it is only how to make bitter acorns edible, or how to make curare poison and to use it safely. The why of cancer and it's treatments, which are effective and which are essentially useless. In other words, when I am dying I will probably be asking questions of the process.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Highmountain]

Jack: You posted -->

Has nothing to do with Atlantis
~~~~~~~~~~~

You know this for sure ? Since no other conflicting data has yet to be posted And it does have MORE logic to fit it than any of the others, -----? Whether I believe it or not is irrelevant, it must be disproved beyond a shadow of a doubt to eliminate it, this cannot be done easily.
**************************************************************************************

You also posted -->

the fact I'm getting along in years and time's a bit limited for what I choose to explore, or don't.
~~~~~~~~~~~

Obviously correct, but it applies equally to any age. However, progressive knowledge is always welcome to me in any form. Even if it is only how to make bitter acorns edible, or how to make curare poison and to use it safely. The why of cancer and it's treatments, which are effective and which are essentially useless. In other words, when I am dying I will probably be asking questions of the process.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Apologies. I was probably ambiguous. I probably should have said [My lack of interest] Has nothing to do with Atlantis and whether or not it existed.

As for cancer, there's no excuse for anyone dying of it. I haven't seen stats but I'd bet not many NAs do. A concoction of Red Clover, Bloodroot, Galangal and Sheep Sorrel is something I've never heard of failing for skin cancers. Sheep Sorrel, Black Burdock, Slippery Elm, and Turkey Rhubarb boiled long and left to sit for 12 hours, then taken an ounce morning and night has the medicos and their knives and poisons beat hollow for those doing their work inside.

We all make our choices constantly about what's of interest, what's a priority, what's absolutely necessary in our thinkings. Mine just don't include Atlantis. When I'm not doing this I'm doing astronomy, or trying to figure out the meaning of what a guy in Florida with a 4th grade education and a preoccupation with magnets and cutting and moving huge rocks by himself [Ed Leedskalknin] meant in his scribblings, or I'm meddling around with copper coils, magnets, and Nicola Tesla patents.

I when I need a break from those I study the behaviors of random numbers or read up on what the government's declassified lately concerning the encounters they had with UFOs over the past 50 years.

All a matter of priorities and choices.

Jack

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Jack: you posted ----.

concoction of Red Clover, Bloodroot, Galangal and Sheep Sorrel is something I've never heard of failing for skin cancers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sounds like a variation of Cansema, "black Salve".
************************************************************************************** I scragged my three cancers with Cesium Chloride. , I have officially been declared as to have had a miraculous remission heeheh.
**************************************************************************************

You posted -->

trying to figure out the meaning of what a guy in Florida with a 4th grade education and a preoccupation with magnets and cutting and moving huge rocks by himself [Ed Leedskalknin] meant in his scribblings,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He was / is fascinating, I agree Jack, let me know if you figure the Coral Castles thingie out, will buy you a case of San Miguel.. It seems as if tonal or magnetic frequencies can be out of phase with gravitational ones and so cancel?
**************************************************************************************

You posted -->

I'm meddling around with copper coils, magnets, and Nicola Tesla patents
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I do too ? sheesh
**************************************************************************************

You posted -->

I study the behaviors of random numbers
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I haven't gotten into statistics etc. heavily yet, but they do fascinate me also.
**************************************************************************************

I have seen an UFO for all practical purposes -

hmm we do seem to have a similar bent.

SOOO, it is "Azlantis" eh ?? hehhehe sorry, but couldn't resist Jack.

Don Jose de La Mancha alias Till Eulenspiegle

 

[Highmountain]

HI Jack: you posted ----.

concoction of Red Clover, Bloodroot, Galangal and Sheep Sorrel is something I've never heard of failing for skin cancers.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sounds like a variation of Cansema, "black Salve".
************************************************************************************** I scragged my three cancers with Cesium Chloride. , I have officially been declared as to have had a miraculous remission heeheh.
**************************************************************************************

You posted -->

trying to figure out the meaning of what a guy in Florida with a 4th grade education and a preoccupation with magnets and cutting and moving huge rocks by himself [Ed Leedskalknin] meant in his scribblings,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He was / is fascinating, I agree Jack, let me know if you figure the Coral Castles thingie out, will buy you a case of San Miguel.. It seems as if tonal or magnetic frequencies can be out of phase with gravitational ones and so cancel?
**************************************************************************************

You posted -->

I'm meddling around with copper coils, magnets, and Nicola Tesla patents
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I do too ? sheesh
**************************************************************************************

You posted -->

I study the behaviors of random numbers
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I haven't gotten into statistics etc. heavily yet, but they do fascinate me also.
**************************************************************************************

I have seen an UFO for all practical purposes -

hmm we do seem to have a similar bent.

SOOO, it is "Azlantis" eh ?? hehhehe sorry, but couldn't resist Jack.

Don Jose de La Mancha alias Till Eulenspiegle

Small world . Got the stuff burning a couple of basal cells off the back of my hand, or doing the afterwork of it, as I type.

As for old Ed, you might have a look at the Florida site for the artist rendition of it as it was when Ed was there. Got a notion Ed had that done so's it wouldn't be lost in the plant-life if anyone ever got to wondering. Notice the emphasis on the shadows and where they are. Lots to be learned from that and the positioning of the 'rocker'. The man was a genius in more ways than one. The pictures he allowed to have taken of himself 'working' also provide a lot of info a person might be surprised with. I harbor the notion he came up with the second cousin to cold fusion.

Random numbers? Statistics? I call your hee hee hee and raise.

-------------------------------

You probably won't accept it as such, but I think I could provide you with some pics of what I think can only be Aztec copper and silver smelting operations, along with pictures of their ingots [a surprisingly wide range of sizes though the shapes remain generally the same]. My impression is the silver ingots were utilitarian, that they used them for hammering out gold plate.

Maybe that wasn't part of this thread discussion though. I'm losing track.

But if you decide you want the pic/smelting thing you can contace me offlist.

Jack

 

[Highmountain]

Greetings friends,

Much interesting ground has been covered, so I beg your indulgence.

Highmountain wrote:

Best we all sing from the same songbook if we're going to make sense of one another.

A bit like “preaching to the choir”? Will it be fruitful not to examine alternate possibilities?

Highmountain also wrote:

In much the same way I don't entirely reject, say, the Zuni tradition that they emerged to the surface of the earth from a hole in the ground, I don't entirely reject it, but I don't rely on it too heavily in establishing the origins of the Zuni.

Hmm – is it fair to put the Zuni oral/mythical tradition on a par with the written record of the Aztecs? There are no magical beings involved or anthropomorphized animal-beings involved in the Aztec codices telling of their origin after all. Most “myths” are in fact allegorized and/or parable-ized reports of historical events, I would suggest reading Diodorus for excellent examples, or the ancient “Egyptian Sailor’s Tale” which tells of a shipwrecked sailor encountering a giant scaled serpent – which turns out to be a troop of armored soldiers moving in single file. In my opinion, the Aztec codices are worthy of greater trust in the veracity than myths such as found among the Zuni people.

Highmountain also wrote:

We all make our choices constantly about what's of interest, what's a priority, what's absolutely necessary in our thinkings. Mine just don't include Atlantis. When I'm not doing this I'm doing astronomy, or trying to figure out the meaning of what a guy in Florida with a 4th grade education and a preoccupation with magnets and cutting and moving huge rocks by himself [Ed Leedskalknin] meant in his scribblings, or I'm meddling around with copper coils, magnets, and Nicola Tesla patents.

I when I need a break from those I study the behaviors of random numbers or read up on what the government's declassified lately concerning the encounters they had with UFOs over the past 50 years.

If we are trying to find the origins of the Aztecs, is it not wise to keep the door open to many possibilities? Some possibilities are more likely than others of course, but if we constrain ourselves to a very narrow range of possibilities, we are restricting the outcome as well. So for instance - if we limit the possible location of Aztlan to Etowah Georgia, if the facts do not prove up this possibility, what then? Do we dismiss Aztlan as never having existed, since it could not be proven to exist in Georgia? I don’t mind some reasonable limits though, when they can be readily justified.

If Cactusjumper’s proposition about the timeline of Aztec history being possibly off by a factor of ten or more, it might be possible to trace not only the true location of Aztlan but the route taken as well. Otherwise we are left with the Aztecs seeming to appear from “nowhere” on the scene in central Mexico.

Highmountain also wrote:

<snip>along with pictures of their ingots<snip>

If you would not mind posting a pic or two publicly, I would sure appreciate a chance to see them.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Your friend,
Oroblanco

I'm going to have to re-examine the pics carefully to decide whether they can be posted on this forum. I've been surprised on previous pictures I've posted how adept some of the members are at learning a lot from what seems nothing in terms of locations.

But if after considering it a while I think I can do it without drawing a map and putting up neon road signs for someone I'll post it.

As for the rest, I've tried to convey about my own direction and inclinations that I'm not locked to any scenario about the origin or migration paths or numbers of or anything else about the Aztec and their origins. You and me posting back and forth to one another a litany of, "I don't have an opinion!" "Yes you do!" "No I don't!" "Yes you do!" doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere much, most particularly toward understanding where each of us is coming from.

Just my thinking on it all
Jack

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SOOO AZLANTIS it is eh? heehe

S eriously my friends, this could be interesting, IF we keep an open mind and not have a fixation on our pet theory / theories.

HI, want the original Cansema "black salve " formula?

As for our little friend in Florida, I believe that he said that his explanation is quite clea, but a bit coded.

Pictures are always welcome, even if they cannot be proven as to locality.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[point hunter]

Hi. The mention of the Carribean was interesting to me. I was thinking along the lines of the Gulf of Mexico. It wouldn't be that hard to travel overland to the Mississippi River from the southern states. Then down the Mississippi River to the Gulf of Mexico. From there, simply follow the coastline, to Mexico and South America. There would be plenty of food readily available and fresh water until they were in the Gulf. However, if they were staying fairly close to the coast there would be plenty of places along the way to stop and replenish supplies and get fresh water. It could also help explain the practice of Cannibalism of the Indians that lived around South Padre Island ,Texas for instance. I don't remember the name of the tribe off the the top of my head, but it would be easy to research.
With that said, the Mound Builders themselves could possibly have been survivors/descendants of the lost Atlantean culture. IMHO, it would be a fairly simple migration from the Atlantic Ocean to the east coast of the U.S. There are plenty of OOP artifacts all over the east coast. Then you have the Mound Builder culture disappearing fairly quickly. Where did all the people go? Again I'm writing from memory here, so a close look at timelines, artifact comparison, and DNA of existing tribes could help prove or disprove this theory. It would also be much easier and in some ways safer to migrate by water routes than overland.
The question of why the Aztec migrated to Mexico in the first place should be looked at closely. My best guess would be due to their practices of human sacrifice and/or cannibalism. Or possibly the belief in different gods and the freedom to worship as they saw fit. I haven't spent much time researching their culture so these are purely theories at this point.

 

[Highmountain]

Hi. The mention of the Carribean was interesting to me. I was thinking along the lines of the Gulf of Mexico. It wouldn't be that hard to travel overland to the Mississippi River from the southern states. Then down the Mississippi River to the Gulf of Mexico. From there, simply follow the coastline, to Mexico and South America. There would be plenty of food readily available and fresh water until they were in the Gulf. However, if they were staying fairly close to the coast there would be plenty of places along the way to stop and replenish supplies and get fresh water. It could also help explain the practice of Cannibalism of the Indians that lived around South Padre Island ,Texas for instance. I don't remember the name of the tribe off the the top of my head, but it would be easy to research.
With that said, the Mound Builders themselves could possibly have been survivors/descendants of the lost Atlantean culture. IMHO, it would be a fairly simple migration from the Atlantic Ocean to the east coast of the U.S. There are plenty of OOP artifacts all over the east coast. Then you have the Mound Builder culture disappearing fairly quickly. Where did all the people go? Again I'm writing from memory here, so a close look at timelines, artifact comparison, and DNA of existing tribes could help prove or disprove this theory. It would also be much easier and in some ways safer to migrate by water routes than overland.
The question of why the Aztec migrated to Mexico in the first place should be looked at closely. My best guess would be due to their practices of human sacrifice and/or cannibalism. Or possibly the belief in different gods and the freedom to worship as they saw fit. I haven't spent much time researching their culture so these are purely theories at this point.

Point hunter: Interesting observations and some valid ones worthy of thinking about. Thanks for contributing to the thread.

J

 

[Highmountain]

HIghmountain wrote:

I'm going to have to re-examine the pics carefully to decide whether they can be posted on this forum.

If you don't feel comfortable posting photos of the ingots/bars, I would be satisfied with a physical description of them - dimensions, shape, thickness, weight any physical information that could be accessed. In fact this might actually be more useful to me than seeing photos of the gold, come to think about it. Can you post a description, as much info as you feel safe in doing? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

White circle lower left

 

[Springfield]

....Assuming you're finished looking at that pic I'm going to take it down so's it mightn't show up all the other possible places it might

Ooops! Picture's gone - sorry I missed the party.

The only rough-cast ingots I've heard described that I know existed (1930's) were 24" long and cast in sand molds with yucca sticks used as the molds. The half-moon cross-sections (rounded bottoms and flat tops) were a couple inches thick and weighed about 60 pounds per full bar. One was used as a door-stop/conversation piece at a barber shop in Silver City in those days. Didn't see it myself, but have talked to a couple old-timers who did.