Atlantis

[Oroblanco]

Yer wrong, wrong, wrong, Oro that is atlantis, fulfills every description of Atlantis, now ground up, and explains logically why it met it's demise.

Im a single day and night glug glub gurgle

Seriously I can think of no other that begins to fulfil the description of Atlantis' end.t

You can't think of ANY other place that fills the bill? Hmm perhaps if you think about it?

Let us examine your site as a candidate for Atlantis; do we have any evidence that elephants, or some close relatives (like mammoths or mastodons) were living there? What about monkeys?

I would appreciate if you would point out specifically where I am wrong in my thinking? Thanks in advance;

Marticus wrote

Thats was kinda the hence my idea towards the caribbean area 10000bc pre ice age melt. Still off the americas. Island or archepelego islands.
Not to far from the mainland for their resources. If that mass sank like we have at port royal. Could work with the mud and sunked idea

Absolutely, will work for the muddy/sunken shoals etc. However, if Atlantis were located in the Caribbean, why would Plato have described it thus?

quote

there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean;

The Caribbean is not exactly "in front of the straits" although this particular description is very debatable. I think I posted in this thread some time ago but we have a similar example in the voyages of Hanno, in which the islands (Kerne, or Canary isles) were described as being "opposite" Carthage, and about the same distance from the straits as Carthage. The Canary islands are not really "opposite" of Carthage by any stretch of the imagination yet that was the choice of terms, but IS about the same distance away from the straits. Part of this MAY be rooted in that particular ancient text, was something originally written in Punic in the temple of Eshmun, and copied down by Polybius and then translated into Greek, then into English much later so the original MAY not have meant quite what we have today. <Garbling in translation??>

However we are left with another issue, in that statement of ".. and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent :"
If Atlantis were in the Caribbean, this description will not fit very well. A voyage to the Caribbean would involve a LONG passage over open sea, then arriving at numerous islands as did Columbus and other explorers of later centuries, there are really no "other islands" necessary or useful for sailing from the Caribbean to the Americas. However we know from Plutarch, that the northern route to the Americas, using the various islands of the Shetlands, Faeroes, Iceland, Greenland etc as "stepping stones" so that ships would not have to carry SO much fresh water (for one major concern of ancient sailing ships) which IF Atlantis were closer to Europe than to the Americas, then Plato's description will fit quite well.



I fear that I am repeating posts so if I am doing that, my apologies to our readers; please do continue.

 

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[marticus]

came across this site if anyone has some free time to flick through.

Answers to questions concerning Plato's Atlantis narratives

 

[marticus]

My bit of evening analyses.

In the first place, they dug out of the earth whatever was to be found there, mineral as well as metal, and that which is now only a name, and was then something more than a name -- orichalcum -- was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island, and, with the exception of gold, was esteemed the most precious of metals among the men of those days.

Copper, Brass, Tin

There was an abundance of wood for carpenters' work, and sufficient maintenance for tame and wild animals. Moreover, there were a great number of elephants in the island, and there was provision for animals of every kind, both for those which live in lakes and marshes and rivers, and also for those which live in mountains and on plains, and therefore for the animal which is the largest and most voracious of them.
Elephants and such makes me think it was bigger than an island, or at least close to a large mainland for hunting, fishing and provisons
Also, whatever fragrant things there are in the earth, whether roots, or herbage, or woods, or distilling drops of flowers or fruits, grew and thrived in that land; and again, the cultivated fruit of the earth, both the dry edible fruit and other species of food, which we call by the general name of legumes, and the fruits having a hard rind, affording drinks, and meats, and ointments, and good store of chestnuts and the like, which may be used to play with, and are fruits which spoil with keeping--and the pleasant kinds of dessert which console us after dinner, when we are full and tired of eating--all these that sacred island lying beneath the sun brought forth fair and wondrous in infinite abundance.

Hard rind-Coconuts?

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which you call the Columns of Heracles (the Strait of Gibraltar, known as the Pillars of Hercules): the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from the islands you might pass through the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbor, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a continent.

Real Sea- Surrounding Land- Continent. The above Phrase doesn't say the island situated in front of the straits which you call the Columns of Heracles is the location of Atlantis, But merely mentions the location of an island

All these things they received from the earth, and they employed themselves in constructing their temples, and palaces, and harbors, and docks; and they arranged the whole country in the following manner: First of all they bridged over the zones of sea which surrounded the ancient metropolis, and made a passage into and out of the royal palace; they began to build the palace and then the habitation of the god and of their ancestors. This they continued to ornament in successive generations, every king surpassing the one who came before him to the utmost of his power, until they made the building a marvel to behold for size and for beauty.

And, beginning from the sea, they dug a canal three hundred feet in width and one hundred feet in depth, and fifty stadia in length, which they carried through to the outermost zone, making a passage from the sea up to this, which became a harbor, and leaving an opening sufficient to enable the largest vessels to find ingress. Moreover, they divided the zones of land which parted the zones of sea, constructing bridges of such a width as would leave a passage for a single trireme to pass out of one into another, and roofed them over; and there was a way underneath for the ships, for the banks of the zones were raised considerably above the water.

The size of the rings mentioned in Stadia only refer to the size of the city, not the whole of Atlantis

Now the largest of the zones into which a passage was cut from the sea was three stadia in breadth, and the zone of land which came next of equal breadth; but the next two, as well the zone of water as of land, were two stadia, and the one which surrounded the central island was a stadium only in width. The island in which the palace was situated had a diameter of five stadia.

This, and the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width, they surrounded by a stone wall, on either side placing towers, and gates on the bridges where the sea passed in. The stone which was used in the work they quarried from underneath the center island and from underneath the zones, on the outer as well as the inner side. One kind of stone was white, another black, and a third red; and, as they quarried, they at the same time hollowed out docks double within, having roofs formed out of the native rock. Some of their buildings were simple, but in others they put together different stones, which they intermingled for the sake of ornament, to be a natural source of delight.

Centre Island- Perhaps not the main island itself but a different island?



for the guys.
Ill have a Rum

 

[ECS]

...
I know some talk about bimini ...

http://www.atlantipedia.ie/samples/bmini-roadwall

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Marticus. a top post. I can find nothing in it to conflict with my Postulation on Atlantis and Planet X one for Oro

 

[Real of Tayopa]

ECS, I have been trying all combinations to view that, so far no luck also one for Oro, and marticus

 

[ECS]

Have no idea why?

 

[marticus]

http://www.atlantipedia.ie/samples/bmini-roadwall

I was able to get the page to work on my phone. I will have a better look at it from home later. It seemed to have alot of good information. As well as alot of speculation and theory.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[marticus]

You can't think of ANY other place that fills the bill? Hmm perhaps if you think about it?

Let us examine your site as a candidate for Atlantis; do we have any evidence that elephants, or some close relatives (like mammoths or mastodons) were living there? What about monkeys?

I would appreciate if you would point out specifically where I am wrong in my thinking? Thanks in advance;

Marticus wrote


Absolutely, will work for the muddy/sunken shoals etc. However, if Atlantis were located in the Caribbean, why would Plato have described it thus?

quote


The Caribbean is not exactly "in front of the straits" although this particular description is very debatable. I think I posted in this thread some time ago but we have a similar example in the voyages of Hanno, in which the islands (Kerne, or Canary isles) were described as being "opposite" Carthage, and about the same distance from the straits as Carthage. The Canary islands are not really "opposite" of Carthage by any stretch of the imagination yet that was the choice of terms, but IS about the same distance away from the straits. Part of this MAY be rooted in that particular ancient text, was something originally written in Punic in the temple of Eshmun, and copied down by Polybius and then translated into Greek, then into English much later so the original MAY not have meant quite what we have today. <Garbling in translation??>

However we are left with another issue, in that statement of ".. and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent :"
If Atlantis were in the Caribbean, this description will not fit very well. A voyage to the Caribbean would involve a LONG passage over open sea, then arriving at numerous islands as did Columbus and other explorers of later centuries, there are really no "other islands" necessary or useful for sailing from the Caribbean to the Americas. However we know from Plutarch, that the northern route to the Americas, using the various islands of the Shetlands, Faeroes, Iceland, Greenland etc as "stepping stones" so that ships would not have to carry SO much fresh water (for one major concern of ancient sailing ships) which IF Atlantis were closer to Europe than to the Americas, then Plato's description will fit quite well.



I fear that I am repeating posts so if I am doing that, my apologies to our readers; please do continue.

Fear not Oro. With so little information to go off. We are all repeating ourselves and going around in circles. But thats alright. It may have been a year or two since your last posts. So new things may have arisen bringing new ideas and theory.

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[Oroblanco]

Fear not Oro. With so little information to go off. We are all repeating ourselves and going around in circles. But thats alright. It may have been a year or two since your last posts. So new things may have arisen bringing new ideas and theory.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

Well we might take a look at some of the other ancient sources on Atlantis. Strabo, the geographer wrote:

quote <referring to a work on geography by Poseidonius>

On the other hand, he correctly sets down in his work the fact that the earth sometimes rises and undergoes settling processes, and undergoes changes that result from earthquakes and the other similar agencies, all of which I too have enumerated above. And on this point he does well to cite the statement of Plato that it is possible that the story about the island of Atlantis is not a fiction. Concerning Atlantis Plato relates that Solon, after having made inquiry of the Egyptian priests, reported that Atlantis did once exist, but disappeared — an island no smaller in size than a continent; and Poseidonius thinks that it is better to put the matter in that way than to say of Atlantis: "Its inventor caused it to disappear, just as did the Poet the wall of the Achaeans."

<Strabo's Geography Book II, chapter 3. written about 25 BC>

Strabo interprets Poseidonius that Atlantis is no smaller than a continent, which is not really in agreement with what Plato actually wrote.

All of our ancient sources other than Plato are quite brief, unfortunately. This site:

Ancient sources of the Atlantis story

- lists most of the ancient sources and a summation of what they wrote. I would point out that we have Diodorus describing Atlantians living in the Americas as descendants of survivors from Atlantis, and mistook the Americas as somehow an extension of Africa. Diodorus is hardly the only ancient author to make that mistake, and some have asserted that the Norse also thought that America was somehow an extension of Africa; hence one of the demands for a tithe from Vinland expected the Christian Norse to somehow capture a pair of "Hippos"!

Side point here but it is not so ridiculous to consider the Americas as connected to Africa, as South America really WAS connected to Africa for millions of years. This makes the south Atlantic particularly unlikely as a location for Atlantis as a huge island however, although Canary Islanders preserved a tradition that their ancestors came from Atlantis according to Marcellus.

Hesiod is the most difficult (IMHO) to make sense of, but it is notable that an earthquake is mentioned as occurring in the height of the war between the Titans and Olympians, (remember Atlas was a Titan) and that the Titans are exiled to the "ends of the Earth". I would also point out that Hesiod mentions the Titans are "earth born" which indicates MEN, and not gods or goddesses, which makes sense.

Please do continue:

 

[sdcfia]

Well we might take a look at some of the other ancient sources on Atlantis. Strabo, the geographer wrote:

quote <referring to a work on geography by Poseidonius>

<Strabo's Geography Book II, chapter 3. written about 25 BC>

Strabo interprets Poseidonius that Atlantis is no smaller than a continent, which is not really in agreement with what Plato actually wrote.

All of our ancient sources other than Plato are quite brief, unfortunately. This site:

Ancient sources of the Atlantis story

Good list. I'm most intrigued with the earlier accounts (4,000BCE - 1190 BCE). The later accounts, beginning with Homer, become more susceptible to narrative errors resulting in too much hearsay and poetic license, IMO, and maybe even a degree of philosophic moralizing to boot.

 

[cactusjumper]

Well we might take a look at some of the other ancient sources on Atlantis. Strabo, the geographer wrote:

quote <referring to a work on geography by Poseidonius>

<Strabo's Geography Book II, chapter 3. written about 25 BC>

Strabo interprets Poseidonius that Atlantis is no smaller than a continent, which is not really in agreement with what Plato actually wrote.

All of our ancient sources other than Plato are quite brief, unfortunately. This site:

Ancient sources of the Atlantis story

- lists most of the ancient sources and a summation of what they wrote. I would point out that we have Diodorus describing Atlantians living in the Americas as descendants of survivors from Atlantis, and mistook the Americas as somehow an extension of Africa. Diodorus is hardly the only ancient author to make that mistake, and some have asserted that the Norse also thought that America was somehow an extension of Africa; hence one of the demands for a tithe from Vinland expected the Christian Norse to somehow capture a pair of "Hippos"!

Side point here but it is not so ridiculous to consider the Americas as connected to Africa, as South America really WAS connected to Africa for millions of years. This makes the south Atlantic particularly unlikely as a location for Atlantis as a huge island however, although Canary Islanders preserved a tradition that their ancestors came from Atlantis according to Marcellus.

Hesiod is the most difficult (IMHO) to make sense of, but it is notable that an earthquake is mentioned as occurring in the height of the war between the Titans and Olympians, (remember Atlas was a Titan) and that the Titans are exiled to the "ends of the Earth". I would also point out that Hesiod mentions the Titans are "earth born" which indicates MEN, and not gods or goddesses, which makes sense.

Please do continue:

Roy,

As usual, a great post. Having said that, I would only say that many/most of the ancient gods were born to mothers and fathers.

Take care,

Joe

 

[DeepseekerADS]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/23802...ozen-beneath-a-mile-of-ice-in-the-south-pole/

By JENNIFER HALE
12th December 2016, 1:05 pm

THE 'LOST CITY' OF ANTARCTICA Shock claims massive ancient civilisation lies frozen beneath mile of Antarctic ice – and could even be Atlantis

Conspiracy theorists believe that there is a secret city which has frozen over - and it could even be the Lost City of Atlantis

THERE could be a hidden city frozen underneath Antarctica, according to shock claims.

The huge continent is an icy mass, and is currently only inhabited by scientific researchers and penguins thanks to its freezing temperatures.

Rumors of a hidden city have been floating about for years, as conspiracy theorists and even some scientists claim the freezing continent is actually the home of the legendary Lost City of Atlantis.

One scientific theory claims that once upon a time Antarctica was ice-free and home to an ancient civilization.

The theory, called crustal displacement, alleges that movements in the Earth’s crust meant that large parts of Antarctica were ice-free 12,000 years ago and people could have lived there.

Allegedly, a society could have existed ‘prehistory’, coming to an end with the last Ice Age which froze over the continent.

And this could have been Atlantis, a mythical city founded by people who were half god and half human which was first mentioned by Greek philosopher Plato in 360BC.

Speculation over the location of the legendary long-lost city is rife, with others believing it to have been near the Greek island of Santorini.

Antarctica’s secret city was apparently ‘”confirmed” by an ancient map called the Piri Reis map, compiled in 1513 from military intelligence.

It appears to show the Antarctic coast hundreds of years before it was discovered, but was denounced by many scholars at the time.

However, earlier this year photos from NASA appeared to reveal traces of a human settlement underneath the ice.

The pictures, taken using remote sensing photography for NASA’s Operation IceBridge mission to Antarctica, show what online sleuths believe could be a city.

Google Earth images also appeared to show a pyramid poking out of the tundra, with enthusiasts claiming that it is proof humanity once lived in the area and built a man-made structure.

The fascinating discovery comes just weeks after scientists revealed the Earth could be heading for another mini ice age caused by the Sun “going blank”.

Conspiracy theorists went wild earlier this year when a video claiming to be from the lost city emerged.

It appeared to show extensive ancient ruins hidden in the ice, and was a video supposedly ‘left behind’ by a California TV crew who have been missing since 2002.

Archaeologist Jonathan Gray claimed that the US government is trying to block the video from being seen because it reveals there is a “massive archaeological dig under way two miles beneath the ice”.

But that’s not the wildest claim – with several online websites claiming that there is a city in Antarctica and HITLER knew about it, making it a secret Nazi base.

The wild claims state that the Nazis claimed an area of Antarctica as German territory and sent an expedition there.

They then allegedly mapped the area and discovered a network of rivers and caves, one of which led to a large geothermal lake.

A city-sized base was built there, called “Base 22 or New Berlin”, and supposedly was home to not only Nazis but also the Illuminati.

However, things get even weirder, with suggestions that the Germans discovered abandoned alien technology OR contacted aliens, and used it to make super weapons.

And some people think the rumoured base still exists, with the Germans, aliens, and the Illuminati planning to launch a New World Order from it.

In October, explorers discovered the remnants of a secret Nazi base hidden deep in the Arctic, just 600 miles from the North Pole.

Whatever beings may be inhabiting the base, they’ll need to make sure to wrap up warm – with one unlucky Antarctic explorer revealing this week he is suffering from the painful-sounding condition Polar P****.

 

[sdcfia]

Roy,

As usual, a great post. Having said that, I would only say that many/most of the ancient gods were born to mothers and fathers.

Take care,

Joe

Of course they were - they were flesh and blood individuals or hybrids who possessed superior mental capacities, had access to advanced technology and applied a powerful political edge to rule the lesser beings.

 

[Oroblanco]

Of course they were - they were flesh and blood individuals or hybrids who possessed superior mental capacities, had access to advanced technology and applied a powerful political edge to rule the lesser beings.

First I have to agree with Cactusjumper, although I have not personally researched every single "god" of every ancient religious belief system, in pretty much every one that I have researched, those "gods" were not gods at all but human beings; another example (other than Greek) may be found in the Egyptian gods, Isis, Ra and Osiris, all were rulers of Egypt, Ra was killed (murdered) and like all of these early 'gods' was accorded the honors of being a god after their deaths. This holds true for Ouranos, Zeus etc right across the line. I merely was pointing out that these Titans of mythology were described as "earth born" by Hesiod, which is odd since the Titans were driven out of "Heaven" so how did these humans get IN to Heaven in the first place?

Now on the super-advanced Atlantians, we do have some argument against it in the form of other ancient sources. Plato alluded to their becoming rather degenerate, seeking power over virtue etc but Pliny the Elder mentioned that the war between Athens and Atlanteans involved both sides using fire-hardened sticks, (spears) as "modern" metal weapons had not yet been invented. This kind of weapon, a fire-hardened sharp stick, is exactly the type of weapons used by primitive peoples during the last Ice Age. Also, what evidence is there of such advanced technology? Plato only mentions some advanced plumbing, chariots and triremes; these are far above wooden clubs and bear skins but not exactly high tech, right?

Side point (grumble) but I had intended to simply post the exact relevant passage from Pliny the Elder's massive Natural History, but unfortunately I could not locate it again; his book is really 37 volumes and is well worth the trouble to read it, very entertaining and most will be surprised at some of the higher thinking that these ancients were capable of, and amused at some of the more ridiculous ideas they held to be true. Pliny's massive work is full of short stories and insights into his time; if you like Aulus Gellius 'Attic Nights' you will enjoy Pliny, if nothing else his descriptions of the art of gold mining and mine engineering in his time is worth the read.

Please do continue;

 

[sdcfia]

... Now on the super-advanced Atlantians, we do have some argument against it in the form of other ancient sources. Plato alluded to their becoming rather degenerate, seeking power over virtue etc but Pliny the Elder mentioned that the war between Athens and Atlanteans involved both sides using fire-hardened sticks, (spears) as "modern" metal weapons had not yet been invented. This kind of weapon, a fire-hardened sharp stick, is exactly the type of weapons used by primitive peoples during the last Ice Age. Also, what evidence is there of such advanced technology? Plato only mentions some advanced plumbing, chariots and triremes; these are far above wooden clubs and bear skins but not exactly high tech, right?
...

Several of earth's alleged ancient "gods" - arguably the same bunch often identified with the so-called "Atlantean" antediluvian culture - were credited with apparent superhuman powers and accomplishments. Pick a following culture's descriptions of them, say the Greeks': Zeus had some sort of ray-gun thunderbolt weapon. Poseidon's trident was some sort of weather-controlling weapon. Hermes wore equipment that enabled him to fly. Hermes also used some sort of staff called a caduceus to heal people with. Cronus wielded a weapon made from a super metal called adamantine. And so on.

Were these myths and legends simply campfire tales or were they memory fragments that described a group of certain folks who were a superior race, compared to those that followed? I would suggest that the "god-like powers" were likely manifestations of a technological advantage that was simply lost in the destruction of the cataclysmic earth changes, seemingly ca 10,000-12,000 BCE. Pliny and Plato's notable "Athens vs Atlantis war" could obviously not have been waged against the antediluvian Atlantic power due to the timing. Maybe someone like the Phoenicians, but not the Kings of Atlantis.

 

[Oroblanco]

Several of earth's alleged ancient "gods" - arguably the same bunch often identified with the so-called "Atlantean" antediluvian culture - were credited with apparent superhuman powers and accomplishments. Pick a following culture's descriptions of them, say the Greeks': Zeus had some sort of ray-gun thunderbolt weapon. Poseidon's trident was some sort of weather-controlling weapon. Hermes wore equipment that enabled him to fly. Hermes also used some sort of staff called a caduceus to heal people with. Cronus wielded a weapon made from a super metal called adamantine. And so on.

Were these myths and legends simply campfire tales or were they memory fragments that described a group of certain folks who were a superior race, compared to those that followed? I would suggest that the "god-like powers" were likely manifestations of a technological advantage that was simply lost in the destruction of the cataclysmic earth changes, seemingly ca 10,000-12,000 BCE. Pliny and Plato's notable "Athens vs Atlantis war" could obviously not have been waged against the antediluvian Atlantic power due to the timing. Maybe someone like the Phoenicians, but not the Kings of Atlantis.

Were they memory fragments of a superior race, with "god-like" powers? Or are we trying to re-interpret the myths in that way?

Diodorus Siculus wrote that the 'ancients' (Bronze age) had literally "mixed up in allegory" the truth. Hence the myth of Atlas the Titan, being condemned to "carry the world on his shoulders" which he pointed out really referred to Atlas being the first to master the 'doctrine of the sphere' and spherical nature of the world (and Universe) but that the ancient poets that preserved history in their verbal poems, had mystically hinted at the truth. If Diodorus were correct, and he was living two thousand years closer to the original historians, then those ancient poets, whose oral histories became the god-myths, are likely all of the same nature. Zeus's terrible "thunderbolts" might have been a type of rock-thrower, like a catapult of ballista, Poseidon might have simply been the first great seafarer (which otherwise we are left with the odd aspect of Poseidon being a lover and trainer of horses, rather strange for a sea-dweller); Briarus the 'hundred-handed' might well have been more like the giant serpent of the castaway Greek text (1st century AD) and had fifty trained men that acted as one, just as the giant serpent turned out to be a column of armored soldiers whom were wearing scale armor. Never underestimate the way allegory can distort a true history. It is still in use today, we hear such things as "president X turned Europe on its ear" or "draining the swamp of DC" when we know that no man could literally turn Europe on its ear and there is no actual, physical wetland type swamp in DC. Two thousand years later however some historians might be hunting for the swamps of Washington DC that they read about or looking for the ear of Europe etc.

All of which also does not mean these allegorical distortions of factual events makes the factual events false. As with our examples, there is a real Europe and a real Washington DC; but as to those Bronze age gods and goddesses, I would propose that all of them (in the Mediterranean basin anyway) are actual people that lived in the period before written histories in those regions. No need for them to have super-powers, or super weapons, if they were a great warrior that could very easily have gotten magnified into magical powers etc.

I must respectfully disagree on your conclusion concerning Pliny's mention of the Atlantian war with Athens and the use of fire-hardened sharp sticks as due to timing. Many humans of 10,000 BC were living in very primitive conditions and were in fact using weapons of that very type. Now recall Herakles, and how he is usually depicted on ancient Greek coins - he is wearing a lion skin (the Nemean lion) and carrying a wooden club. These are quite literally accurate for Ice Age humans, or 'cave men' if you like. The wars between Greeks and Phoenicians certainly were not using sharpened sticks hardened in fires as weapons, they had metal weapons, armor and warships.

If the Atlantians and/or Titans were so superior and had advanced technology, why has none of that technology been found?

 

[marticus]

Just to tag into your last sentence oro. Maybe we should look into this device the Antikythera Mechanism.

Found on a ship wreck with 39 orichalcum ingots along side it

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

 

[sdcfia]

Were they memory fragments of a superior race, with "god-like" powers? Or are we trying to re-interpret the myths in that way?

Maybe it's simply a matter of less advanced folks trying to describe the actions of superior technology.

Diodorus Siculus wrote that the 'ancients' (Bronze age) had literally "mixed up in allegory" the truth. Hence the myth of Atlas the Titan, being condemned to "carry the world on his shoulders" which he pointed out really referred to Atlas being the first to master the 'doctrine of the sphere' and spherical nature of the world (and Universe) but that the ancient poets that preserved history in their verbal poems, had mystically hinted at the truth. If Diodorus were correct, and he was living two thousand years closer to the original historians, then those ancient poets, whose oral histories became the god-myths, are likely all of the same nature. Zeus's terrible "thunderbolts" might have been a type of rock-thrower, like a catapult of ballista, Poseidon might have simply been the first great seafarer (which otherwise we are left with the odd aspect of Poseidon being a lover and trainer of horses, rather strange for a sea-dweller); Briarus the 'hundred-handed' might well have been more like the giant serpent of the castaway Greek text (1st century AD) and had fifty trained men that acted as one, just as the giant serpent turned out to be a column of armored soldiers whom were wearing scale armor. Never underestimate the way allegory can distort a true history. It is still in use today, we hear such things as "president X turned Europe on its ear" or "draining the swamp of DC" when we know that no man could literally turn Europe on its ear and there is no actual, physical wetland type swamp in DC. Two thousand years later however some historians might be hunting for the swamps of Washington DC that they read about or looking for the ear of Europe etc.

Yes, perhaps this or maybe that. Or, applying Occam's Razor, they were describing what was. Maybe.

All of which also does not mean these allegorical distortions of factual events makes the factual events false. As with our examples, there is a real Europe and a real Washington DC; but as to those Bronze age gods and goddesses, I would propose that all of them (in the Mediterranean basin anyway) are actual people that lived in the period before written histories in those regions. No need for them to have super-powers, or super weapons, if they were a great warrior that could very easily have gotten magnified into magical powers etc.

I must respectfully disagree on your conclusion concerning Pliny's mention of the Atlantian war with Athens and the use of fire-hardened sharp sticks as due to timing. Many humans of 10,000 BC were living in very primitive conditions and were in fact using weapons of that very type. Now recall Herakles, and how he is usually depicted on ancient Greek coins - he is wearing a lion skin (the Nemean lion) and carrying a wooden club. These are quite literally accurate for Ice Age humans, or 'cave men' if you like. The wars between Greeks and Phoenicians certainly were not using sharpened sticks hardened in fires as weapons, they had metal weapons, armor and warships.

But you're missing my point. The Bronze Age, and let's say for argument early Greece/Athens, may be assigned to the time period back as far as, say, about 3,000 BCE. "Atlantis", or the "gods", allegedly active let's say 10,000 BCE, is separated from the Bronze Age by at least 7,000 years! Trying to match the two ages is meaningless.

If the Atlantians and/or Titans were so superior and had advanced technology, why has none of that technology been found?

Maybe for the same reason Atlantis itself has not been found.

 

[Oroblanco]

Maybe it's simply a matter of less advanced folks trying to describe the actions of superior technology.



Yes, perhaps this or maybe that. Or, applying Occam's Razor, they were describing what was. Maybe.

Well it is not a "perhaps" anything that Plutarch stated Plato had EMBELLISHED the original history of Atlantis, which he also stated that Solon had attempted to write. It is also not "perhaps" that Pliny stated the Atlantians and Athenians fought with fire-hardened sharpened sticks for weapons. This would certainly support the contention of Atlantis as an Ice Age civilization, but not so advanced after all.


SDCFIA also wrote

But you're missing my point. The Bronze Age, and let's say for argument early Greece/Athens, may be assigned to the time period back as far as, say, about 3,000 BCE. "Atlantis", or the "gods", allegedly active let's say 10,000 BCE, is separated from the Bronze Age by at least 7,000 years! Trying to match the two ages is meaningless.

Who or whom is trying to "match" the two ages? Plato is guilty of that. I am contending that a real Atlantis is far more likely to have been only a few steps advanced from the primitive hunter-gatherer peoples of the late Ice Age. We have great flood myths in virtually every culture world wide, yet only in Atlantis story do we find reference to advanced technologies at all, and even in Plato, those advanced technologies are not really SO advanced.

Perhaps a parallel may be found in the flood of Noah; here we have ten 'kings' or leaders as is common in many flood myths, pre-flood. No one would contend that the people of Noah were greatly advanced in technology. If they may be called a civilization at all, it was a pastoral, livestock-herding and largely nomadic culture, not one of great cities, high technologies etc. If these people had high tech devices of any kind, surely some of these devices must have been preserved as being rare and valuable, right? This brings me to the last point.

SDCFIA also wrote

Maybe for the same reason Atlantis itself has not been found.

This would be to contend that ALL traces of high tech 'power' devices were utterly destroyed in the same cataclysm. Also, it would mean that NO trading of any kind of high tech devices must have occurred, or these devices would turn up among those barbarian/savage cultures that survived the cataclysm. A vast trading empire as Plato described Atlantis, would be leaving SOME of its trade items among those barbarians.

We DO have evidence of some kind of far-reaching trade occurring in that very time period (late Ice Age) but of things which were necessary to life, like particular types of stone that could be made into weapons and tools, certain food items including cattle, for one example. These things are not high tech by any means.


Marticus wrote

Just to tag into your last sentence oro. Maybe we should look into this device the Antikythera Mechanism.

Found on a ship wreck with 39 orichalcum ingots along side it

Well I would point out that the Antikythera device, which is a type of mechanical computer, dates to thousands of years AFTER the time of Atlantis and thus is almost certainly not a relic of that culture. <for those not familiar with this enigma, here is the Wiki article>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
As amazing as this device is, it represents the flower of the technological advances which were being made in the Classical or late Hellenistic age. Other complex devices were also being made in this time period, such as automatic doors, vending machines and even a type of steam engine, not to mention the amazing inventions of Archimedes.

I do not think any ingots of orichalcum were found in this same shipwreck, you may be thinking of another ancient shipwreck found at Uluburun? This also does not have orichalcum as cargo but MIGHT be what you are thinking of?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluburun_shipwreck#Cargo

Please do continue;