Atlantis

[Oroblanco]

PS found a reported ancient shipwreck with some 39 ingots of "orichalcum" off of Gela, Sicily. Perhaps this is the wreck you were thinking of Marticus? This particular load of ingots does not date to the time of Atlantis, unfortunately, and whether it is truly orichalcum or not would be difficult to say since Plato stated the metal was only a "name" by his time. The ingots were tested and found to be an alloy of copper, zinc, iron and lead, which resulted in a brassy reddish color. It may have been orichalcum, or it is also possible that the ancients were attempting to imitate the metal. Pliny recorded that orichalcum fell out of use because the mines of it were exhausted.

Please do continue;

 

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[sdcfia]

... Who or whom is trying to "match" the two ages? Plato is guilty of that. I am contending that a real Atlantis is far more likely to have been only a few steps advanced from the primitive hunter-gatherer peoples of the late Ice Age. We have great flood myths in virtually every culture world wide, yet only in Atlantis story do we find reference to advanced technologies at all, and even in Plato, those advanced technologies are not really SO advanced. ...

I guess that I've always placed the "gods" in the time before the Ice Age, not during it - assuming that the Ice Age was likely caused by the great cataclysm that allegedly destroyed Atlantis. Any evidence of the Atlantians' existence not destroyed by the cataclysm itself would possibly have been further obscured by the later retreat of the glaciers and melting of the ice. I consider Plato's story to be so far later than the "Atlantian" period (by many thousands of years in fact) that, while intriguing, is not much more than a tantalizing story. Now, if we could lay our hands on the alleged Egyptian records, perhaps we could gain some ground that has been severely gapped by the passage of too much time.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Well, MANY native cultures of "olden days" speak of their ppl emerging from the earth; reckon they went underground before the Ice Age/Glaciers...? It was ALL "oral Tradition". Dunno. Must have been "space rocks" hitting the Earth, causing much devastation; earthquakes... volcanoes eruptions... cloudy skies, NO Sun; FREEZING temperatures... WHERE have I read that before...?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

And if the POLES shifted... hot & cold temperatures MAY have been reversed; sorta like a 2012 "matrix".

 

[Oroblanco]

And if the POLES shifted... hot & cold temperatures MAY have been reversed; sorta like a 2012 "matrix".

Poles shifting - hmmm an interesting theory. What if the Earth itself, rolled over, end for end? How would this be witnessed by any humans standing on the ground? Herodotus wrote that he was informed by Egyptian priests that the Sun had twice rose and twice set in the wrong directions, and added that 'no damage was done to Egypt' by these odd incidents, which IMPLIES that perhaps great damages occurred elsewhere. This story from Herodotus is also mentioned by Pomponius Mela
“The Egyptians pride themselves on being the most ancient people in the world. In their authentic annals . . . one may read that since they have been in existence, the course of the stars has changed direction four times, and that the sun has set twice in that part of the sky where it rises today.”

If the Earth rotated end-over-end, and not in a 'snap' type of movement but fast enough to happen in a relatively short time (days or weeks) would it not appear that the Sun had reversed directions, to a witness standing on the ground?

Unfortunately neither Herodotus nor Pomponius Mela gave the date or time period when this oddity occurred, so it is left to speculation.

SDCFIA I would like to hear more about why you assign the period of the 'gods' SO much farther back in time, and also I would presume the destruction of Atlantis? Thanks in advance;

 

[marticus]

Hey Guys, Sorry been AFK for a while been flat out with work. So i'll have to do a bit of catch up.
Its good to see this thread gaining life again. Top Effort

so a few things
Oro you wrote
Thereupon one of the priests, who was of a very great age, said: O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. Solon in return asked him what he meant. I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and preserves us. When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you, live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. Whereas in this land, neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient.

I would have to agree and to my understanding of the text this does out lay some kind of planetary alignment or possible collision with a foreign body or moon.
Another thing i noticed, The description given in the destruction of early man and civilizations are almost a match to the description given to the destruction of Atlantis.


Oro you also wrote.
However we are left with another issue, in that statement of ".. and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent :"
If Atlantis were in the Caribbean, this description will not fit very well. A voyage to the Caribbean would involve a LONG passage over open sea, then arriving at numerous islands as did Columbus and other explorers of later centuries, there are really no "other islands" necessary or useful for sailing from the Caribbean to the Americas. However we know from Plutarch, that the northern route to the Americas, using the various islands of the Shetlands, Faeroes, Iceland, Greenland etc as "stepping stones" so that ships would not have to carry SO much fresh water (for one major concern of ancient sailing ships) which IF Atlantis were closer to Europe than to the Americas, then Plato's description will fit quite well.



If we use this image as a reference. take note of the Indonesian and Malaysian islands. They have become large mass body areas Pre ice melt.
My thoughts are the area around the Caribbean may have looked similar at this time.

 

[marticus]

Well it is not a "perhaps" anything that Plutarch stated Plato had EMBELLISHED the original history of Atlantis, which he also stated that Solon had attempted to write. It is also not "perhaps" that Pliny stated the Atlantians and Athenians fought with fire-hardened sharpened sticks for weapons. This would certainly support the contention of Atlantis as an Ice Age civilization, but not so advanced after all.


SDCFIA also wrote


Who or whom is trying to "match" the two ages? Plato is guilty of that. I am contending that a real Atlantis is far more likely to have been only a few steps advanced from the primitive hunter-gatherer peoples of the late Ice Age. We have great flood myths in virtually every culture world wide, yet only in Atlantis story do we find reference to advanced technologies at all, and even in Plato, those advanced technologies are not really SO advanced.

Perhaps a parallel may be found in the flood of Noah; here we have ten 'kings' or leaders as is common in many flood myths, pre-flood. No one would contend that the people of Noah were greatly advanced in technology. If they may be called a civilization at all, it was a pastoral, livestock-herding and largely nomadic culture, not one of great cities, high technologies etc. If these people had high tech devices of any kind, surely some of these devices must have been preserved as being rare and valuable, right? This brings me to the last point.

SDCFIA also wrote


This would be to contend that ALL traces of high tech 'power' devices were utterly destroyed in the same cataclysm. Also, it would mean that NO trading of any kind of high tech devices must have occurred, or these devices would turn up among those barbarian/savage cultures that survived the cataclysm. A vast trading empire as Plato described Atlantis, would be leaving SOME of its trade items among those barbarians.

We DO have evidence of some kind of far-reaching trade occurring in that very time period (late Ice Age) but of things which were necessary to life, like particular types of stone that could be made into weapons and tools, certain food items including cattle, for one example. These things are not high tech by any means.


Marticus wrote


Well I would point out that the Antikythera device, which is a type of mechanical computer, dates to thousands of years AFTER the time of Atlantis and thus is almost certainly not a relic of that culture. <for those not familiar with this enigma, here is the Wiki article>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
As amazing as this device is, it represents the flower of the technological advances which were being made in the Classical or late Hellenistic age. Other complex devices were also being made in this time period, such as automatic doors, vending machines and even a type of steam engine, not to mention the amazing inventions of Archimedes.

I do not think any ingots of orichalcum were found in this same shipwreck, you may be thinking of another ancient shipwreck found at Uluburun? This also does not have orichalcum as cargo but MIGHT be what you are thinking of?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluburun_shipwreck#Cargo

Please do continue;

Oro you where right they where from two different ships. I thought they where perhaps the same i remembered reading about them a while back on facebook. Mind must have played a trick on me.

I did find an interesting quote from a man about the Ingots-
Orichalcum is a golden-coloured bronze alloy. It was made by cementation through the reaction of zinc ore, charcoal and copper. Analysis of the 39 ingots showed they were made with about 75% copper, 15-20% zinc and small amounts of nickel, lead and iron.
However, not all experts are convinced of the nature of orichalcum. Enrico Mattievich, a retired physics professor and expert in mineralogy, palaeontology and archaeology, said he does not believe the mythical metal was brass-like.
Instead he believes it originated in the Peruvian Andes, where a set of metallic jaguars were found matching Plato's description of the metal. These were made of 9% copper, 76% gold and 15% silver.

 

[marticus]

Yes that was the correct one I was mistaken thinking they came from the same wreck, Also thought i saw a post about the Mechanism being made out of the same material which turned out to be untrue also.
I know the dates don't line up with our story but perhaps the technology was passed on.

PS found a reported ancient shipwreck with some 39 ingots of "orichalcum" off of Gela, Sicily. Perhaps this is the wreck you were thinking of Marticus? This particular load of ingots does not date to the time of Atlantis, unfortunately, and whether it is truly orichalcum or not would be difficult to say since Plato stated the metal was only a "name" by his time. The ingots were tested and found to be an alloy of copper, zinc, iron and lead, which resulted in a brassy reddish color. It may have been orichalcum, or it is also possible that the ancients were attempting to imitate the metal. Pliny recorded that orichalcum fell out of use because the mines of it were exhausted.

Please do continue;

 

[sdcfia]

SDCFIA I would like to hear more about why you assign the period of the 'gods' SO much farther back in time, and also I would presume the destruction of Atlantis? Thanks in advance;

Primarily because of the fact that no physical proof remains of them, their accomplishments or their artifacts (well, maybe a few survivors to tell the tales and some enigmatic architectural ruins). This implies destruction of such a magnitude (be it pole shift, collision with Venus, Ice Age, The Flood or whatever) that, according to our accepted current sciences, presumably occurred pre-Ice Age and essentially obliterated everything on the planet. Afterward, the re-emergence of human culture began, progressing through the known "Ages" to the current times.

 

[Oroblanco]

Primarily because of the fact that no physical proof remains of them, their accomplishments or their artifacts (well, maybe a few survivors to tell the tales and some enigmatic architectural ruins). This implies destruction of such a magnitude (be it pole shift, collision with Venus, Ice Age, The Flood or whatever) that, according to our accepted current sciences, presumably occurred pre-Ice Age and essentially obliterated everything on the planet. Afterward, the re-emergence of human culture began, progressing through the known "Ages" to the current times.

Do you include the Egyptian gods Ra, Isis and Horus in the pre-Ice-Age super race? (Super here meaning having superior abilities, technologies etc not supermen literally) I ask because it may be possible to locate the actual tombs of at least two of these gods, perhaps in our own lifetimes if someone starts hunting for them. If and when one of these tombs are located and opened, my bet is that they will date no older than 10,000 BC.

In support of your very old origin theory, we do have those odd "great year" calculations of the Babylonians and others. What need or use led these astronomers to come up with these super-long "years" of either 3600 years or (according to Berossus) 432,000 years. Was someone keeping track that far back in time, to take notice of these kinds of 'year'? Other ancient cultures likewise had LONG types of 'year' from the Hebrew Jubilees of 50 or 49 years to the Mayan Great Year of 5,125.36 (quick Google for that one, could NOT remember it). Why did these cultures find they had need of such a long measure of time, and did they have someone keeping track long enough to notice the passing of more than one such 'great year'? Thanks in advance;

Marticus NO worries, I am lucky if my brain can control well enough to get my shoes tied most mornings, and I have the same trouble, can remember SOME details of something I read somewhere, and then later can NOT for the life of me recall exactly where I read it!

 

[Real of Tayopa]

As usual I agree with you ORO ------ I am lucky if my brain can control well enough to get my shoes tied most mornings

 

[sdcfia]

Do you include the Egyptian gods Ra, Isis and Horus in the pre-Ice-Age super race? (Super here meaning having superior abilities, technologies etc not supermen literally) I ask because it may be possible to locate the actual tombs of at least two of these gods, perhaps in our own lifetimes if someone starts hunting for them. If and when one of these tombs are located and opened, my bet is that they will date no older than 10,000 BC.

In support of your very old origin theory, we do have those odd "great year" calculations of the Babylonians and others. What need or use led these astronomers to come up with these super-long "years" of either 3600 years or (according to Berossus) 432,000 years. Was someone keeping track that far back in time, to take notice of these kinds of 'year'? Other ancient cultures likewise had LONG types of 'year' from the Hebrew Jubilees of 50 or 49 years to the Mayan Great Year of 5,125.36 (quick Google for that one, could NOT remember it). Why did these cultures find they had need of such a long measure of time, and did they have someone keeping track long enough to notice the passing of more than one such 'great year'? Thanks in advance;

Marticus NO worries, I am lucky if my brain can control well enough to get my shoes tied most mornings, and I have the same trouble, can remember SOME details of something I read somewhere, and then later can NOT for the life of me recall exactly where I read it!

I don't have my comparative mythology at hand, but it seems to me that the ancient Egyptian pantheon has been linked to most of the other ancient cultures' gods (Greek, Roman, Norse, et al), although there is plenty of overlap and differences of opinion as to who was whom, depending upon the source. Overall, I guess I couldn't prove it, but would put all of them into the antediluvian ages.

As far as your questions pertaining to celestial observations, calendars, etc, I guess the ancients must have known much more about the earth's cycles than we can explain. Why they kept these records may have had some bearing on their "religions", which may have have also been their "science" in those days. It would be interesting to fully understand it all, no?

 

[marticus]

Anyone know any producers. We could turn this investigation into a tv show

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[Oroblanco]

Anyone know any producers. We could turn this investigation into a tv show

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Well, actually I do; they are often seeking new ideas for television series, and have been known to 'troll' our discussions here in the past fairly frequently. If they are interested, it is likely that they will contact you about it. How would you propose to take this from a verbal discussion (with some maps, images etc) into a video format?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Gotta include EASTERN Mythology, from India & China... Nuclear War in ANCIENT India...? Hmmm...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

As the SUN rises in the EAST, & sets in the WEST; ADVANCED TECH traveled from India/China to the WEST (Atlantis area); the "CLASH of the TITANS" from Greek Myths sounds like a NUCLEAR exchange that COULD have obliterated the capital city of Atlantis, causing diverse devastation in the outlying EMPIRE, such as earth-quakes, sea-quakes, tsunami of much violence, volcano eruptions, DISASTER! Look for THE "evidence(s)"... HH! Good Luck!

 

[sdcfia]

As the SUN rises in the EAST, & sets in the WEST; ADVANCED TECH traveled from India/China to the WEST (Atlantis area); the "CLASH of the TITANS" from Greek Myths sounds like a NUCLEAR exchange that COULD have obliterated the capital city of Atlantis, causing diverse devastation in the outlying EMPIRE, such as earth-quakes, sea-quakes, tsunami of much violence, volcano eruptions, DISASTER! Look for THE "evidence(s)"... HH! Good Luck!

Yes, the ancient Indian texts contain some mighty interesting stuff all right. Were they describing what they saw, or were they merely creating the science fiction of their times? What are the chances that the Scientology "texts" will still be read and pondered 3,000 years from now?

 

[marticus]

Well, actually I do; they are often seeking new ideas for television series, and have been known to 'troll' our discussions here in the past fairly frequently. If they are interested, it is likely that they will contact you about it. How would you propose to take this from a verbal discussion (with some maps, images etc) into a video format?

Well i guess a good start would be to lay out the clues for the audience. Then discus what we all have here. Bring in people for their ideas point of views. Bring in some experts in areas of geology. Techtonics and such. Make the show some sort of a journey following clues and leads.
I know there are other segments about it. But i mean do a few seasons or something. Like treasure quest. OI and superstition mounts.
If you could get some money behind it. Could help develope the case

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[marticus]

Yes, the ancient Indian texts contain some mighty interesting stuff all right. Were they describing what they saw, or were they merely creating the science fiction of their times? What are the chances that the Scientology "texts" will still be read and pondered 3,000 years from now?

Thats an interesting way to look at it. I guess all myths kind of started that way. I am in a way an Ancient Astronaught beleiver so i wont completely disagree with so called Gods and such and i wont rule them out either. I am now feeling more confident in our discussion about the relative time period of atlantis that i guess we can say we have established a 10 000 11150 date range. That it is possible that around this time the world may have been more connected then we believe. Not like we are today with high tec. But by means of travel and development. So there is no reason why other advanced developed nations may have arisen. But then i look at it like the black plaque. That wiped out 1/3 of europeans.

If a caticlismic even occured to a large and devestating degree which could cause the ice to melt. Large areas of land mass to be swollowed by water.
Most developed civiliastions would have been on the waters edge. Many if not all could have been taken out.

With so much gone and more then likely large amounts of the population gone.
Could all these stories of gods. Cities and power be handed down from survivors generation by generation.
Could the answers lie with the many od out of place stone structures left around the world

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[sdcfia]

...
If a caticlismic even occured to a large and devestating degree which could cause the ice to melt. Large areas of land mass to be swollowed by water.
Most developed civiliastions would have been on the waters edge. Many if not all could have been taken out.
...

That's the same thing they're saying now about the alleged upcoming "earth changes". The "safe zones" begin about 800 feet above sea level - supposedly. That would exclude half of the world's current population. Like all things, these current predictions (planet X causal effects, yada, yada) are controversial and subject to suspicion that it's just a ramped up political ploy to promote more fear into the lemmings and edge closer towards globalism. The global warming scare didn't gain the desired traction, maybe this one will.