Cactusjumper wrote
Roy,
I don't think I have asked for any proof, just pointed out that the story, as you have just stated, could not exist in the era that Plato indicated.
In our previous discussions, I have gotten the distinct impression that you wished to see proof, in the form of chariots, triremes, metal working etc that dates to the time of Atlantis, or perhaps I was completely mistaken by your meaning.

I have discussed the topic with other folks whom were far less inclined to even consider the possibility that Atlantis is based on real events, so the frustration sometimes carries over to you, however un-deserved.
Cactusjumper also wrote
Since Plato is our sole source for this story it gets a bit dicey to stray from his account and assign other possibilities as to what he really meant.
Have to respectfully disagree that Plato is not our sole source, however his highly embellished account is singular. I also must respectfully disagree that it is at all risky to look at other possibilties, especially if these possibilities will conform to Plato's account, in those portions of his account which can be verified by alternate sources. So for example, when Plato refers to the Atlantians as the sons of Atlas, one of the Titans, we can find in other ancient texts references not only to the Titans but to Atlas as well. I would say that this is not twisting Plato to conclude that this portion of his story (that Atlas and his progeny existed) is more likely true. another example would be that the basic frame of the story, and island empire located in the Atlantic, is supported in other sources as well, though when Plato describes such things as chariots, it is an anachronism, since none of the other sources include that.
Cactusjumper also wrote
Whether Plato's account is truth or fiction. it remains his and his alone. For us to bend his story to fit our own notions of what he really meant, seems a bit presumptuous. On the other hand, since he is no longer around to ask and we know the story is not possible, as written, we must stray from what he wrote. Others have been doing that for many, many years, so we see some incredible yarns being concocted.
Have to agree in part, and respectfully disagree in part. I don't think it is wise to start bending his story to fit out notions, as in moving the location to a tiny islet in the Aegean sea for instance, which could never have herds of elephants nor support a large population (Thera) and yet I do not see it as "bending" the story to filter out those features which by the evidence, appear to be embellishments - like the chariots, fountains etc. These features are all in the Critias, not in Timaeus. But YES people have been building utterly incredible tales out of the frame of Atlantis, to include space ships and dimension-doors etc. Certainly not mentioned by Plato, nor any other ancient source. However again I would point out that other ancient sources do refer to Atlantis, Plato is hardly our sole source.
Cactusjumper also wrote
From what you wrote, I think we probably agree on more than what we disagree on here. While I agree that Dolce Vestonici was a good example of what humans were capable of thousands of years before Atlantis, I don't agree that they could have advanced much beyond the basic needs of food and protection. That kind of lifestyle (arrested development) can be seen in the modern era still.
Hmm - have to again agree in part, and disagree in part. While arrested civilizations are fairly common, the obvious reasons for such results are that they have reached a 'statis' level, they are able to provide for their own needs, and nothing is driving further development. Human civilizations often show their greatest growth in technologies and culture when faced by tremendous challenges, most usually wars, leading to new technologies and organizations - and again is not the tale of Plato, telling us that the Atlantians were very much a warlike people, attempting to conquer as far as they were able? And that this very attribute was what angered the gods?
In support of this, let us follow Ignatius Donnelly for a moment, and compare the story in Genesis told of the great flood. Prior to this flood, humans had increased greatly in numbers; sons of Adam had developed most of the arts assigned to "civilization" even though these statements are refuted by modern historians, these arts included metal working, music etc. This is not at variance with Plato's account of Atlantis. There is even a hint in Genesis, that may be telling the very same story as Plato too - quote
6 1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth
<Genesis 6:2-5, 6:22:13 KJV>
Note especially chapters 2 and 4; "giants in the earth" and "mighty men, men of renown". The people at the heart of Plato's story are the Titans; and what is the definition of that term:
1. Greek Mythology
One of a family of giants, the children of Uranus and Gaea, who sought to rule heaven and were overthrown and supplanted by the family of Zeus.
2. titan
One of prodigious size, strength, or achievement:
Where is there a conflict, to simply replace the word Titans into that story of the flood in Genesis?
Note also that these people were filling the Earth with violence, which is also not greatly at variance with the Atlantians of Plato; carrying the sword and fire where ever they went.
We can also point to another aspect of Plato's story, which is supported in earlier texts - the war between the titans and the Olympians. The Titans were supreme, and the Olympians, Greeks, defeated them. Hesiod (several centuries before Plato) told of the Titans who, after losing a ten-year war, were imprisoned beneath the waters of the Ocean in the far West.
Homer wrote about the imprisonment of the Titan Cronos at the "far end of the earth" beneath the "waters of the restless sea."
Now remember that Diodorus explained how the "ancients" (for Homer and Hesiod were ancient in his own day) would tell the true stories of the gods, but
in the form of allegory; an example quote
After the death of Hyperion,29 the myth relates, the kingdom was divided among the sons of Uranus, the most renowned of whom were Atlas and Cronus. Of these sons Atlas received as his part the regions on the coast of the ocean, and he not only gave the name of Atlantians to his peoples but likewise called the greatest mountain in the land Atlas. 2 They also say that he perfected the science of astrology and was the first to publish to mankind the doctrine of the sphere;30 and it was for this reason that the idea was held that the entire heavens were supported upon the shoulders of Atlas, the myth darkly hinting in this way at his discovery and description of the sphere.
<Diodorus Siculus, Library of History, book III chap 60>
We could also take note of the way Diodorus describes the "sons of Uranus" which Uranus means "heaven" <Root word is Phoenician "Ouranos" meaning "heaven"> It would be equally correct to translate this sentence to read "the sons of heaven" and this same phrase is found in the book of Enoch, which also records the great flood, the destruction of the evil men etc.
I will go even further here, as you would sooner debate the story as given by Plato with ALL of the trappings regardless of the fact they are not mentioned by any other source, and say that it is hardly possible to prove that the Atlantians could not have had chariots, horses, triremes, metal plated walls or even mysterious power crystals and flying machines. It is nearly impossible to prove a negative, and we could also note that most high-tech devices do not survive long in the elements. If Atlantis had paper-thin sheets of metal plating the walls, for example, how long would that survive in the elements, if not tended and maintained by men? Finding a chariot that is 2000 years old is extremely rare today, even though we now know that chariots were used in the thousands - they were built of materials that would not survive unless under exceptional circumstances. I do not believe that Atlantis had all the stuff listed in Critias by any means, however it is certainly not impossible either.
Well I got carried away there - was mainly trying to show that Plato is not really our sole source, that most elements of the story are found in other ancient sources including sources which predate him by centuries.
Cactusjumper also wrote
I am shivering just thinking about the weather back there right now. Not sure three dogs are enough.
Now if I could just get you to help argue that point with Beth, as I have been telling her you need at least eight Huskies to haul a decent load on a sled. Otherwise the deep freeze has departed for the time being, hit 35 today in fact, and just to show you how nice a guy I am, I will say this -
"wish YOU were HERE!"
Reb - thank you for the link, interesting read! <two thumbs up - they need to add a smiley for that here>


I hope you did not get too hammered by that ugly storm. Warm weather is on the way to you now - should be there in a few days.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco


