sdcfia
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- Sep 28, 2014
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Representation of a medieval halberd-type weapon ... ? Doesn't seem like a common tomahawk with that opposing point. Cookes Range, Sappo Canyon area.
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Interesting info, listo - thanks. Here's more. The photo I posted was cropped to show only the weapon. There's more nearby, see below. The "signature", "MARION . MC Y.B", was presumably added later, as the work was seemingly done with much better tools. We speculate the signature was of the person who built and occupied ruins of an old shelter nearly, and used other structures in the area - rock corral, rock spring box. Never able to find any record of a man with a name that fit the carving or various spellings of it.
Above the weapon's pointer side is an old faded pecking of a snake, presumably created before the weapon was. Above the snake are two bedrock mortars. I have my doubts about the accepted explanation for the use of bedrock mortars - at least in some cases. These photos were taken quite a few years ago and are unfortunately low resolution. You're right - this area deserves some more time.
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## From listopiedras:
## First off, I need some simple questions answered without getting too specific on information that you may understandably hold back.
I'm glad to answer what I can remember, however it's been 12-14 years since I was at this site. We documented quite a bit there with photos, but we had a primary destination nearby that day. This halberd site slipped into the "curiosity file" and never got any more attention.
## …..inside the structure that you call ‘cabin’ or shelter there’s a higher wall still standing. Does that wall have some sort of crude fireplace at the base? Also, …on the exterior side of the wall, is there a taller than usual flat stone that could have been used as an improvised altar?
As I recall, there was a crude fireplace in that corner. Here's another photo of it.
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## ……on the bedrock mortars, …do you remember how deep they are? (I do agree with you about them not being used for grain)
Didn't measure them, but inspected them and thought they were too deep to be easily worked and were located in a position that would have not been comfortable. Common metates and manos are obviously easier to make and use for grinding grains, IMO.
We’ll get to the ‘signature inscription’ and its time table and tools used, later.
## The Snake however, deserves a lot more attention. Do you happen to have a picture of it in its entirety? If you do, do you think you can post it?
I would, but I have no more photos of the snake.
## You do indeed have a few riddles that have to be solved, but you also have some helpful symbols ‘ad facia’ that are straight forward and true to the meaning. The most confusing is of course the coordinates given. I hope that your snake can clarify and straighten that meaning.
I’ll get back on it after spending a little time with your answers.
While intriguing, I have to say this site was not the most important riddle we spent time on in the Cookes Range - not by a long shot. However, the weapon petroglyph intrigued us. Also the rock corral and the odd "shrine" against the big boulder at its end (below). Your comments are rekindling my interest. Thanks for whatever ideas you have - might have to go back for a new looksee.
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And lost dogs too, ha ha.
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Well, the story gets complicated, listo. It's a big picture thing, and surveyed patterns seem to be a common thread connecting at least some of the parts. Is there anything you see that may indicate a specific azimuth angle in the items you've pointed out on "tomahawk rock"? For us, this site occupies a position on a specific azimuth that links to another interesting feature in the Cookes Range - one with another adjacent "old lilo". Who, what, when, why - we don't know the answers, but numbers don't lie and I don't believe in repeating coincidences. BTW, the azimuth is 337° (or -23° if you prefer).
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While looking at the pictogram of the weapon and the inscription under it, you must have seen the elliptical line/enclosure encompassing the snake, the weapon and the inscription itself. Why circled and enclosed?
Above the enclosure, the two bedrock mortars are situated on a much more eroded surface,…..and also stained on one side but clear and eroded on the opposite side.
That white powder-like stain is no organic matter from crushing grains.
It is ancient lime dust that got imbedded into the stone by a caustic chemical reaction. It did not wash away with acid rain and never will. But you can see the flaking stone surface a little farther behind, while the flowing or dripping surface in between is smooth and clean from repeated washing during the course of emptying that mortar by hand. It was a very labor intense work and repeated for a long time.
The circled area that has the message and pictogram was protected by two factors: …one…it was slightly elevated by applying a thin coat of mortar with a trowel and smoothed out. Second ….a coat of diluted acid mixed with iron oxide (possible black sand dissolved) was applied for protection. Upon the chemical reaction, a P/H equilibrium was reached and the surface was penetrated and hardened just enough for the last step,………………the beautiful carvings and inscription which was done while the surface was still wet and workable.
That is the mystery of your perfect carvings with no tool marks. Skill…? Yes.
It was all done at the same time by the same master mason/artist.
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The inscription has 2 C's instead of one,...it reads " MARION .M C C Y. B"
... An important fact to know and remember is that every time you see A Snake depicted (but not just a wavy line that ‘might’ be a snake) it is a crucially important key to the solve you’re after. It is usually the first thing I pay attention to,…and never regretted.
Have you ever heard of a compound that can be put on rock and becomes visible, as a shadow, when the Sun heats it up?
Very nice.
This rattler seems to go around and leave behind a peak or other landmark. Hard to know the context without more info. But it looks old and reversed.
It should go downward. Possibly Templar related.
The head should be pointing down and tail up
I tried to reverse the photo but it didn't come up on the post
A large portion above it is missing. Possibly vandalized or just natural erosion. It is the light color area in the picture below the tail
which should be above it if reversed.
Because of the damage, a large portion of Talil Latiorum is missing and the meaning is lost.
I'm not sure I quite understand your comments here. The carving is what it is. Head down, tail up depends on your perspective I guess - I'm unaware of the rule you quote. The viewer is standing where the photo was taken.
Myself, I wouldn't presume information is missing here due to spalling off of the rock patina. I guess it's possible, due to the damage near the 7-turtle (if it is damage and not intentional). My focus is on the combination of images and the mystery of the "hook"-looking and "compass"-looking carvings. I've seen something similar to the hook from an alleged Aztec site in Utah - I'll try to find it and post it later, although things from Utah are fraught with red flags, ha ha. One could call it another snake, IMO. The other symbol has some intentional embellishments within the lower half of the circle. I have ideas, but only speculative.
The turtle is a standard "treasure symbol" with legend-based implications. Yeah, sounds great, but who knows? The snake is spectacular, but the tongue is weird and wrong. Could simply be a warning to folks, considering the terrain, but I doubt it since people aren't stupid. Well, many aren't anyway. I think it's symbolic, but like all petroglyphs the meaning was only known for certain by its creator and that knowledge may or may not have been shared.
I would like to get some compass angles on these carvings to satisfy my curiosity. I haven't returned to the Cookes Range for many years, although it's an extremely intriguing destination. Avoid summer in there - too much heat and too many snakes.
Well, I’m not going to argue with you or anybody’s opinion and visual perception, especially if this is another Lilo project of sorts. You are –by all means- allowed to see it your way.
That image/message is supposed to be viewed reversed from how you look at it. Only then you will able to understand the following:… ‘the turtle to the right’ with Tabula Septimani on its back, the Shield of the 7th in line with the (black) triangle, and the Hebrew snake with six rattles. (Christian depictions show seven rattles)
The one you call a compass is actually the shield. The one you call the ‘hook’ is the symbol of ‘ors, orsus’ which is either ‘beginning’ or ‘ a new beginning ‘ depending on context.
The spots on the turtle’s shell are small round circles of equal size and the shield is also depicted round as a sign of equality between members of the same rank.
The shield has also a seven on the top right quadrant and the ‘ors’ symbol on the top left.
The snake’s tongue you were wondering about is an unfinished triangle. It would have to reach the ground to be whole. Usually that is associated with ‘unfinished business’ or not yet arrived to destination.
Except for being able to ID the group based of their insignia, the rest was lost due to the damage and it’s impossible to tie it all in.
So, there you go……just another man’s opinion if you wish.
By the way, if you keep this up then I may have to charge you a fee for my services. I’m going to send you a bill to the Lilo’s Corral . Hmm? Or maybe not, them people was French. Lol.
Well, I've heard as many opinions about the Cookes Range petroglyphs as there have been tellers of them. Keep it up, your ideas are unique and interesting for sure. I agree that this area is likely not the final destination for those who left carvings there. Lots of things seem to point north and west (or south and east if you prefer). I know from your style that you're not another Roger Snow alter ego, but here's a question: did you ever operate a snowcat in Colorado? Ha ha. Put a rock on that invoice - things get pretty windy this time of the year.