ANCIENT VOICES: Ditlihi's Journey Into The Truth Of Ancient Treasure In The Southwest

[sdcfia]

Not sure what your point is. Also, I'm not sure if there is a contradiction in your statement?

Do you, or don't you see Intent? Regardless of the time table.

Arcane? Perhaps. But do you see a connection to an intelligent work force? Or just natural and random formations?

Let me clarify. If you are claiming that the rock shapes shown in photos posted on this thread were created by an ancient culture, then I'm greatly alarmed by the lack of quality in the workmanship. It's too crude and doesn't hold up to the standards of ancient workmanship set and so prevalently found, say, anywhere in the greater Mediterranean Basin going back up to 6,000 years ago, maybe earlier at some sites. Without an explanation for the poor quality, the only conclusion I can draw is that the rock shapes are examples of pareiodolia.

If you are claiming these alleged relics originated even earlier, say in the pre-cataclysmic Atlantian era prior to 12,000 years ago, my opinion is that such things very likely could not be found on the surface of North America due to the apparent nature of the cataclysm. Genuine sophisticated remains possibly from this time period have been found in South America, the Middle East and elsewhere, but not in North America to my knowledge.

Therefore, no, I don't see "intent" with the photos presented so far. I'd be quite happy to change my mind with more convincing evidence. I'd also be interested in your suggestion of the identity of the creators of the alleged relics and their timeframe.

 

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[Ditlihi]

It seems to me that you guys are making all this stuff too arcane, too complicated, looking for BCE Old World significance in odd-shaped rocks. Go back 5,000 years and look at real Old World carvings that have survived over there. They're magnificent. The rocks you're displaying aren't even recognizable to many humans. Why?

Below, this rather stoic looking floppy-eared dog wasn't "put there". However, its existing natural form was once reshaped a bit (apparent tool marks evident at eye, chin and ears) in order to look more realistic and thus be easier for most humans to notice. Afterwards, the petroglyphs were carved directly where the pooch seems to be looking, in order to emphasize this particular panel to folks on the trail. Makes sense, given the trail and the canyon it's in.

The dog isn't the message, the carvings are - this is where the information is. If you're looking for metal caches, first go to where the metal occurs in the ground. Chances are, if there are caches, they're likely to be found somewhere near the source.

View attachment 1712482

View attachment 1712483

Steve, firstly, I appreciate your input more than I can say. Having freshly arrived home from Crete, and after viewing some of the finest ancient artwork to be found in the world at Heraklion, you are in a first hand position to have a valid opinion on the particular types of artwork we are discussing.

You are correct. Old World carvings over there are magnificent. There is no denying that what we are looking at here is not of the same quality...at all. To this I offer the thought that the people who "shaped" these were not skilled artisans, they were explorers. The artwork you've witnessed in Heraklion was created by Skilled Artisans....not the common man of the street, not soldiers, not clerics, not seafarers, not explorers. Skilled Artisans. I would not expect the same quality here in any way. I would find it incredible indeed if these 'immigrants' had created such as that. A boat load of Artists sent to explore a new world?

In my post to Markmar in answer to his inquiry for a name to the treasure I seek, I made mention of the possibility of multiple ancient groups having traveled these mountains and desert southwest. I have to tell you, so far in my journey I have not ran across any petroglyphs resembling the ones in your post, yet. Are we comparing apples to oranges? I could just as easily claim your "floppy eared dog" is not skillfully rendered either, and that I would have even noticed him if you hadn't pointed him out. As we explore these relics of the past we ALL have to rein in our human susceptibility to pareidolia. I am fully cognizant of this and have made every effort to stifle it. What I have posted is what I could not explain as natural. It has intent, tool marks, symmetry. I won't deny that a lot of what I have seen was questionable, but I have relegated those to my background files and not posted them.

Too Arcane, complicated. Possibly. Being "Right Brained" I tend to start with the Big Picture and work my way in. Time will tell, and that I have plenty of. I'm always open to alternative explanations and opinions so feel free to offer up anything you feel relevant. We may not always agree but I'll always consider your advice and input.


P.S. I lost the opportunity to have a guided tour for the Cookes, bugged out to cooler climes.

 

[Ditlihi]

Let me clarify. If you are claiming that the rock shapes shown in photos posted on this thread were created by an ancient culture, then I'm greatly alarmed by the lack of quality in the workmanship. It's too crude and doesn't hold up to the standards of ancient workmanship set and so prevalently found, say, anywhere in the greater Mediterranean Basin going back up to 6,000 years ago, maybe earlier at some sites. Without an explanation for the poor quality, the only conclusion I can draw is that the rock shapes are examples of pareiodolia.

If you are claiming these alleged relics originated even earlier, say in the pre-cataclysmic Atlantian era prior to 12,000 years ago, my opinion is that such things very likely could not be found on the surface of North America due to the apparent nature of the cataclysm. Genuine sophisticated remains possibly from this time period have been found in South America, the Middle East and elsewhere, but not in North America to my knowledge.

Therefore, no, I don't see "intent" with the photos presented so far. I'd be quite happy to change my mind with more convincing evidence. I'd also be interested in your suggestion of the identity of the creators of the alleged relics and their timeframe.

Just to keep from blurring the lines....the photos Maverick is posting are from a different site, not the same one we are exploring here. Don't want to confuse the readers any more than necessary.

 

[Ditlihi]

I was looking in the treasure lore concerning Tres Hermanas region and I found one story very interesting.

Dit, are you still there?

I'm here now Markmar, please do share!

 

[sdcfia]

Steve, firstly, I appreciate your input more than I can say. Having freshly arrived home from Crete, and after viewing some of the finest ancient artwork to be found in the world at Heraklion, you are in a first hand position to have a valid opinion on the particular types of artwork we are discussing.

You are correct. Old World carvings over there are magnificent. There is no denying that what we are looking at here is not of the same quality...at all. To this I offer the thought that the people who "shaped" these were not skilled artisans, they were explorers. The artwork you've witnessed in Heraklion was created by Skilled Artisans....not the common man of the street, not soldiers, not clerics, not seafarers, not explorers. Skilled Artisans. I would not expect the same quality here in any way. I would find it incredible indeed if these 'immigrants' had created such as that. A boat load of Artists sent to explore a new world?

In my post to Markmar in answer to his inquiry for a name to the treasure I seek, I made mention of the possibility of multiple ancient groups having traveled these mountains and desert southwest. I have to tell you, so far in my journey I have not ran across any petroglyphs resembling the ones in your post, yet. Are we comparing apples to oranges? I could just as easily claim your "floppy eared dog" is not skillfully rendered either, and that I would have even noticed him if you hadn't pointed him out. As we explore these relics of the past we ALL have to rein in our human susceptibility to pareidolia. I am fully cognizant of this and have made every effort to stifle it. What I have posted is what I could not explain as natural. It has intent, tool marks, symmetry. I won't deny that a lot of what I have seen was questionable, but I have relegated those to my background files and not posted them.

Too Arcane, complicated. Possibly. Being "Right Brained" I tend to start with the Big Picture and work my way in. Time will tell, and that I have plenty of. I'm always open to alternative explanations and opinions so feel free to offer up anything you feel relevant. We may not always agree but I'll always consider your advice and input.


P.S. I lost the opportunity to have a guided tour for the Cookes, bugged out to cooler climes.

OK, fair enough. The intent is always to work towards a plausible explanation of evidence, though frankly, it's doubtful we'll ever know the "truth" of historical events whether in an ancient timeframe or even events that have occurred within the past hundred years. That doesn't mean we quit trying. I spent 20 years trying to solve a modern mystery with first-hand information personally provided by the protagonist. Yes, I achieved surprising verification and closure (alas no money though), but to this day I'm not sure exactly what the hell I was dealing with or who the protagonist really was. I've got ideas, but I'll likely never know for sure. The primary reason I'm on TNet is to monitor posts for information that may connect to my personal interest.

I'm all in on the diffusionist arguments, although I've changed my big picture model considerably as new information becomes available. There's plenty of wishful blue sky speculation about ancients in America (treasure caches all over the place!!), but very little offered about who these people were, what their missions were and why or how all these marginal look-like rocks found in the deserts somehow alert to treasure vaults that were never recovered, or why they weren't recovered, for that matter. As I've mentioned before, if it wasn't for Roger Snow, there would be nothing to talk about, since he introduced the concept to the public twenty years ago and captured folks' imaginations.

I totally respect your attention to detail and dogged exposure of unproven ideas being pushed as fact. It's curious that, usually needing blue-ribbon corroboration, you are buying into seemingly arbitrary and unsupported theories. "Where's the beef?"

 

[Maverick1]

Let me clarify. If you are claiming that the rock shapes shown in photos posted on this thread were created by an ancient culture, then I'm greatly alarmed by the lack of quality in the workmanship. It's too crude and doesn't hold up to the standards of ancient workmanship set and so prevalently found, say, anywhere in the greater Mediterranean Basin going back up to 6,000 years ago, maybe earlier at some sites. Without an explanation for the poor quality, the only conclusion I can draw is that the rock shapes are examples of pareiodolia.

If you are claiming these alleged relics originated even earlier, say in the pre-cataclysmic Atlantian era prior to 12,000 years ago, my opinion is that such things very likely could not be found on the surface of North America due to the apparent nature of the cataclysm. Genuine sophisticated remains possibly from this time period have been found in South America, the Middle East and elsewhere, but not in North America to my knowledge.

Therefore, no, I don't see "intent" with the photos presented so far. I'd be quite happy to change my mind with more convincing evidence. I'd also be interested in your suggestion of the identity of the creators of the alleged relics and their timeframe.

Sorry, I have posted this reply in the wrong place.

It was meant for Ditlihi.

My apologies,
I will pot it again where it was intended

(the message stays the same)

 

[Maverick1]

Just to keep from blurring the lines....the photos Maverick is posting are from a different site, not the same one we are exploring here. Don't want to confuse the readers any more than necessary.

Dit, do you want me to remove my posts/pictures, in order to avoid confusion? I can do that easily if needed. Please advise.

 

[Maverick1]

Steve, firstly, I appreciate your input more than I can say. Having freshly arrived home from Crete, and after viewing some of the finest ancient artwork to be found in the world at Heraklion, you are in a first hand position to have a valid opinion on the particular types of artwork we are discussing.

You are correct. Old World carvings over there are magnificent. There is no denying that what we are looking at here is not of the same quality...at all. To this I offer the thought that the people who "shaped" these were not skilled artisans, they were explorers. The artwork you've witnessed in Heraklion was created by Skilled Artisans....not the common man of the street, not soldiers, not clerics, not seafarers, not explorers. Skilled Artisans. I would not expect the same quality here in any way. I would find it incredible indeed if these 'immigrants' had created such as that. A boat load of Artists sent to explore a new world?

In my post to Markmar in answer to his inquiry for a name to the treasure I seek, I made mention of the possibility of multiple ancient groups having traveled these mountains and desert southwest. I have to tell you, so far in my journey I have not ran across any petroglyphs resembling the ones in your post, yet. Are we comparing apples to oranges? I could just as easily claim your "floppy eared dog" is not skillfully rendered either, and that I would have even noticed him if you hadn't pointed him out. As we explore these relics of the past we ALL have to rein in our human susceptibility to pareidolia. I am fully cognizant of this and have made every effort to stifle it. What I have posted is what I could not explain as natural. It has intent, tool marks, symmetry. I won't deny that a lot of what I have seen was questionable, but I have relegated those to my background files and not posted them.

Too Arcane, complicated. Possibly. Being "Right Brained" I tend to start with the Big Picture and work my way in. Time will tell, and that I have plenty of. I'm always open to alternative explanations and opinions so feel free to offer up anything you feel relevant. We may not always agree but I'll always consider your advice and input.


P.S. I lost the opportunity to have a guided tour for the Cookes, bugged out to cooler climes.

I second that wholeheartedly. I’m (fully) of the opinion that you can make sense of everything in a sea of blur. My hat is off…

To Steve,
Lack of workmanship?

quote…..”then I'm greatly alarmed by the lack of quality in the workmanship. It's too crude and doesn't hold up to the standards of ancient workmanship set and so prevalently found, say, anywhere in the greater Mediterranean Basin going back up to 6,000 years ago,”……..end quote

Oh boy, are we comparing apples to oranges ! ! ! ?
So, …you expect exquisite workmanship in the middle of Nowhere, just to not-be-alarmed by the lack of such ?
The workmanship you have witnessed in European continent were performed by Artist/Tradesmen IN EXCHANGE FOR PAYMENT.
THEY WERE HIRED to build, or decorate, or paint …etc., etc., in Total Control by the paying customers that held them Responsible by the Quality of Workmanship.

The explorers in the New World (just like Dit has made clear sense) were mostly people with different missions. Time was valuable for other tasks, including survival, defense, food acquisition. Work, exploration, mapping etc……..let your imagination run wild here….
Exquisite detailed art work to rival that of Europe was secondary in their big scheme. Some did that too, but not en-masse. (I cannot show some of the paintings and sculptures as we move away from the scope of Dit’s thread)

Ditlihi has rightfully acknowledged that the pictures I posted come from another place than discussed in this present thread. I will stop posting any more pictures in order to avoid confusion.

 

[sdcfia]

The explorers in the New World (just like Dit has made clear sense) were mostly people with different missions. Time was valuable for other tasks, including survival, defense, food acquisition. Work, exploration, mapping etc……..let your imagination run wild here….

Ah, there's the rub. We can verify these motivations and tasks for the European explorations in the Americas - it was all documented for 300 years. But, the ancients? Where do you get your information about them, or is it all imagination running wild as you say? Sure, you can speculate that all explorers lead similar lives, but who is telling the ancients' story? I would like to get interested these rocks, but I'm not the type to take things on faith alone.

 

[releventchair]

Great thread.
Stay safe.
Savor the doins....
A ramble please , and I'll leave off going off topic after.

Genuine wealth was secured in the S.W..

Not always. Not by all.

A simple granary in use was worth at times more than the finest shiny stuff....

Pictographs near were not the work of the dead who lacked the wealth and knowledge (and fortune) of stored food. That is important. As were/are graphs/glyphs.
Agrarian civilization advanced beyond hand to mouth nomadic or semi nomadic by resource necessity was quite a leap. Not always a successful one. But a hint of greater permanence not only in locale , but place in the known universe and time . Only afforded by the luxury of a brief time not being focused solely on survival.
Nomadic folk had such luxury on rare occasion too it can be imagined. Sans the permanence however temporary though that made certain works too redundant for their benefit beyond seasonal visits.

Vaulted ceilings of natural rock above , some with sunburst designs and other curiosities already created by time and nature turning up again and again. As in Puebloan and others.

A jump to Utah and the theme continues.The Hogback

Yesterdays success was evident in granary's. Not unlike today's silo's ; kind of.
Only success fills them though. And despite efforts , sometimes a harvest fails. Without a reserve from previous harvest(s) , what option beyond finding other resources (without conflicting with other humans in the process or finding a lack of resources among them as well) by leaving the however temporary permanence exists?

A reserve is wealth.
Once food is assured , other wealth can be focused on at times. Not at the risk of empty granarys for those dependent on such though.
Yet in most societies there's a few who wander seeking wealth of another sort for reasons beyond tomorrows gruel or next years seed stash.....Whatever the sort of wealth they seek may be....

 

[Maverick1]

Ah, there's the rub. We can verify these motivations and tasks for the European explorations in the Americas - it was all documented for 300 years. But, the ancients? Where do you get your information about them, or is it all imagination running wild as you say? Sure, you can speculate that all explorers lead similar lives, but who is telling the ancients' story? I would like to get interested these rocks, but I'm not the type to take things on faith alone.

OK, ...let's simplify the issue at hand.

This thread is Not about you and your frustrations and questions. It's also Not about me, or my stories or Imagination or whatever else rubs in.

This is Ditlihi's 'story' about her experience is a new and unusual place. Let her find out what is all about, and then you,.....and others will get a complete report on her findings.

Patience Sir, is a virtue. Everything in good time.

 

[sdcfia]

OK, ...let's simplify the issue at hand.

This thread is Not about you and your frustrations and questions. It also Not about me, or my stories or Imagination or whatever else rubs in.

This is Ditlihi's 'story' about her experience is a new and unusual place. Let her find out what is all about, and then you,.....and others will get a complete report on her findings.

Patience Sir, is a virtue. Everything in good time.

Well, Ditihi asked the following question in Post #1:

"... Who created these colossal stone Guardians, and why? What story do they tell? Is there a special significance to certain areas in these mountains, or to the mountains themselves? Do great Treasures lie buried beneath our feet as we tread silently above in awe at their magnificence? Or has Nature's Architect played a supreme joke on us, as improbable as it seems after witnessing such miraculous oddities? ... "

Being a forum thread, not a blog, it seemed like an invitation for discussion. I guess we'll just wait till she files her report. Simple enough?

 

[Ditlihi]

Dit, do you want me to remove my posts/pictures, in order to avoid confusion? I can do that easily if needed. Please advise.

I second that wholeheartedly. I’m (fully) of the opinion that you can make sense of everything in a sea of blur. My hat is off…

To Steve,
Lack of workmanship?

quote…..”then I'm greatly alarmed by the lack of quality in the workmanship. It's too crude and doesn't hold up to the standards of ancient workmanship set and so prevalently found, say, anywhere in the greater Mediterranean Basin going back up to 6,000 years ago,”……..end quote

Oh boy, are we comparing apples to oranges ! ! ! ?
So, …you expect exquisite workmanship in the middle of Nowhere, just to not-be-alarmed by the lack of such ?
The workmanship you have witnessed in European continent were performed by Artist/Tradesmen IN EXCHANGE FOR PAYMENT.
THEY WERE HIRED to build, or decorate, or paint …etc., etc., in Total Control by the paying customers that held them Responsible by the Quality of Workmanship.

The explorers in the New World (just like Dit has made clear sense) were mostly people with different missions. Time was valuable for other tasks, including survival, defense, food acquisition. Work, exploration, mapping etc……..let your imagination run wild here….
Exquisite detailed art work to rival that of Europe was secondary in their big scheme. Some did that too, but not en-masse. (I cannot show some of the paintings and sculptures as we move away from the scope of Dit’s thread)

Ditlihi has rightfully acknowledged that the pictures I posted come from another place than discussed in this present thread. I will stop posting any more pictures in order to avoid confusion.

No way Jose, was not my intention in the least. It was just that I was getting the feeling some were attributing your photos to Dogs site, getting things mixed together. I wanted to make sure they knew there were two separate sites (in two different states) with corresponding iconology. That was a point that I felt was being missed, blurred, and wanted to address it. Nothing more. And don't you dare delete them, I for one am enjoying your contributions!

 

[Maverick1]

Well, Ditihi asked the following question in Post #1:

"... Who created these colossal stone Guardians, and why? What story do they tell? Is there a special significance to certain areas in these mountains, or to the mountains themselves? Do great Treasures lie buried beneath our feet as we tread silently above in awe at their magnificence? Or has Nature's Architect played a supreme joke on us, as improbable as it seems after witnessing such miraculous oddities? ... "

Being a forum thread, not a blog, it seemed like an invitation for discussion. I guess we'll just wait till she files her report. Simple enough?

Yep. Way to go...

(..by the way, can't you grasp a Rhetorical question when you see one?)

 

[Maverick1]

No way Jose, was not my intention in the least. It was just that I was getting the feeling some where attributing your photos to Dogs site, getting things mixed together. I wanted to make sure they knew there were two separate sites (in two different states) with corresponding iconology. That was a point that I felt was being missed, blurred, and wanted to address it. Nothing more. And don't you dare delete them, I for one am enjoying your contributions!

Muchisimas Gracias, Senora

no hay problemas

Jose

 

[Ditlihi]

OK, ...let's simplify the issue at hand.

This thread is Not about you and your frustrations and questions. It's also Not about me, or my stories or Imagination or whatever else rubs in.

This is Ditlihi's 'story' about her experience is a new and unusual place. Let her find out what is all about, and then you,.....and others will get a complete report on her findings.

Patience Sir, is a virtue. Everything in good time.

Well, Ditihi asked the following question in Post #1:

"... Who created these colossal stone Guardians, and why? What story do they tell? Is there a special significance to certain areas in these mountains, or to the mountains themselves? Do great Treasures lie buried beneath our feet as we tread silently above in awe at their magnificence? Or has Nature's Architect played a supreme joke on us, as improbable as it seems after witnessing such miraculous oddities? ... "

Being a forum thread, not a blog, it seemed like an invitation for discussion. I guess we'll just wait till she files her report. Simple enough?

Let me know when you two are done with your pissing match and I'll be back.

 

[Maverick1]

Let me know when you two are done with your pissing match and I'll be back.

...ha terminado el pipi....(mas o menos)

 

[Ditlihi]

...ha terminado el pipi....(mas o menos)

תודה רבה לך
(Toda)

 

[Maverick1]

תודה רבה לך
(Toda)

exquisite skill

(de-nada)

 

[Ditlihi]

OK, fair enough. The intent is always to work towards a plausible explanation of evidence, though frankly, it's doubtful we'll ever know the "truth" of historical events whether in an ancient timeframe or even events that have occurred within the past hundred years. That doesn't mean we quit trying. I spent 20 years trying to solve a modern mystery with first-hand information personally provided by the protagonist. Yes, I achieved surprising verification and closure (alas no money though), but to this day I'm not sure exactly what the hell I was dealing with or who the protagonist really was. I've got ideas, but I'll likely never know for sure. The primary reason I'm on TNet is to monitor posts for information that may connect to my personal interest.

I'm all in on the diffusionist arguments, although I've changed my big picture model considerably as new information becomes available. There's plenty of wishful blue sky speculation about ancients in America (treasure caches all over the place!!), but very little offered about who these people were, what their missions were and why or how all these marginal look-like rocks found in the deserts somehow alert to treasure vaults that were never recovered, or why they weren't recovered, for that matter. As I've mentioned before, if it wasn't for Roger Snow, there would be nothing to talk about, since he introduced the concept to the public twenty years ago and captured folks' imaginations.

I totally respect your attention to detail and dogged exposure of unproven ideas being pushed as fact. It's curious that, usually needing blue-ribbon corroboration, you are buying into seemingly arbitrary and unsupported theories. "Where's the beef?"

I see. That is an awful big assumption. Short of clairvoyance, how would you know what I am "buying into"? I don't believe I have made any attempt to persuade anyone of anything, I have merely been posting my observations and experiences. Nor have I stated anything as FACT. If my conversation is making you feel uncomfortable, it's not my intent, and you are free to come and go as you please. In my opening post I stated that I am on a Journey. If I travel into zones that are seemingly difficult for you to process, just turn away, don't look. I close my eyes when I'm on an elevator, lol. But I don't avoid them and take the stairs. Your choice. But I won't sit in the car til you can make up your mind. I've already made it plain I have little patience. So excuse me while I travel onward, eh?


" The primary reason I'm on TNet is to monitor posts for information that may connect to my personal interest. "

Then why are you on this thread? What IS your personal interest?