Ancient coin ? (Updated! more pics)

[history hunter]

I found this coin while metal detecting when I was a kid. I thought it was fake until I brought it to a coin show and a dealer said it was not necessarily fake. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about it?

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

Evidence for it being ancient was in the first link posted on page 1.

I went back and reread the story. She is stating that the Arkansas and Alabama coins are bronze copies of the original silver coin. Totten verified that the two coins had been struck from the same die, a very significant fact in his opinion. He also stated that coins of this particular type are very rare in the Old World (but I cant find a pic of this rare original online). So as to it being a plated copy, there is little doubt. The only part where we are in dispute is that they feel it is an ancient copy. That part I dont understand because it should be easy to prove. I think they will be in shock when they see the condition of HistoryHunter's childhood find. http://www.gloriafarley.com/chap11.htm



THE ALABAMA COIN

"This Phoenician copy of a half-dollar-size coin from ancient Syracuse may provide definitive evidence supporting Professor Mark McMenamin's theory that the ancient Phoenicians were the first Old World explorers in the New World."


THE ARKANSAS COIN

It appeared ancient indeed, worn and corroded, with a green patina in places against the copper color of the coin (Fig 11-2). It was about the size of a fifty-cent piece, but it was thick in the center and thin on the edges. There was a small round hole at top center, as if the coin might once have been worn as a pendant. On the obverse, a female profile with a straight high-bridged Grecian nose, faced left. In her curly hair was a three-pronged ornament. Around the edge swam four dolphins. The reverse bore the head and neck of a lively horse, facing left. He had erect ears and a short mane. His mouth was open, as if he were snorting. Behind his head was a stylized tree with eight branches, uprooted, showing five crooked roots. Under the horse head was a very worn inscription. Only four of the symbols were now plain. The edge of the coin had once been encircled with a row of tiny dots, worn off except on the sides.


Fig. 11-2 Arkansas coin, obverse (left) and reverse (right). Photographs by Richard Pruitt.

After two hours' conversation, Kelley allowed the coin to be mailed to Boston for identification. Totten and Fell both examined it closely, the former using a Zeiss binocular microscope, with a magnification of 40 power. Totten stated, "The coin is bronze, imperfectly round, measuring 29.5 by 25.0 millimeters in diameter, and weighing 7.63 grams. It has suffered from corrosion. There is no question of its antiquity or its authenticity. The patina on the coin and in the hole has several colors: green, oxblood, yellow, and tan. Indications are that it has remained buried for centuries."

HISTORY HUNTERS WISCONSIN COIN
It is smaller than the other two; about quarter size, 29 mm dia., 10 grams.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

The coin feels some what heavy and perhaps someone tried to put some sort of silver platting on the coin when turned into a medallion. The coin dealer seemed to think it was real. If it is real, then it's in great condition. Also the second pics of the coin were taken with a flash, the first pics shows more of some type of corrosion on the coin.

If you could take some more pics front, back and edge, taken in daylight, flash off with a colored background may help. The first 2 pics are blurry.

Also the diameter in mm and weight in grams to compare with the others found.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: Ancient coin ?

Just send it to David Sear.

There seems to be some people who think they are infallable without actually seeing what you have. Let an expert check it, and then decide - there are no David Sears here.


By the way - the picture was not the point - but the location etc. was the 'reading' I was referring to.

It may be real, it may not be - but - in my opinion - the idea that an ancient person would make a reproduction is funny - since, it would STILL be an ancient coin. Ancient fakes are well known, but they are STILL ancients. (and not necessarily fakes, as they may be for local circulation).
Athenian tetradrachmas struck during the war with Sparta were silver plated - and spendable - they WERE the coin of the realm - They were not the coin of the land, but they were - real, ancient and spendable - and worth money today.

Like I said - take it to an expert.

Much of what you will find here on this thread is that it cannot be real because YOU have it, and they don't.

B

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

I think he has already taken it to some "experts" and that is why he ended up here. Modern or ancient, I think its possible to command a high price. Right now you can get some big bucks. I believe only 2 are known in existance and neither in such excellent condition. Im sure they would love to study it. I believe this coin is a different size/different die. The identical denticals will be hard to explain. Once its verified as modern, it will be worth little. I may try to call the university tommorrow.

My guess is the reason they had to say its an ancient reproduction because the originals are all silver.

Whatever the outcome, I hope you will let us know HH.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: Ancient coin ?

I hope we find out also.

I site David Sears is because some 'experts' will put down a coin so they can buy it cheaper. (I've seen that happen).

He needs someone with no "personal interest" in the item, rather than - what is this, is it real, etc. (though, he may find a picture of his coin in a book somewhere in the future)


http://www.davidrsear.com/certification.html



B

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

This coin could ruin someones career.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Re: Ancient coin ?

Chek out this site for the weights, and dimentions http://www.s110120695.websitehome.c...rit_orde=fld_Ruler&crit_blok=20&crit_disp=sum

http://www.sylloge-nummorum-graecorum.org/



SS.

 

[CRUSADER]

Re: Ancient coin ?

I hope we find out also.

I site David Sears is because some 'experts' will put down a coin so they can buy it cheaper. (I've seen that happen).

He needs someone with no "personal interest" in the item, rather than - what is this, is it real, etc. (though, he may find a picture of his coin in a book somewhere in the future)


http://www.davidrsear.com/certification.html



B

I don't care who David is, but I beat even he could tell from the photo.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: Ancient coin ?

Maybe - but, its kind of hard to weigh and measure and see specific details from a photo.

B

 

[IronSpike]

Re: Ancient coin ?

Evidence for it being ancient was in the first link posted on page 1.

I went back and reread the story. She is stating that the Arkansas and Alabama coins are bronze copies of the original silver coin. Totten verified that the two coins had been struck from the same die, a very significant fact in his opinion. He also stated that coins of this particular type are very rare in the Old World (but I cant find a pic of this rare original online). So as to it being a plated copy, there is little doubt. The only part where we are in dispute is that they feel it is an ancient copy. That part I dont understand because it should be easy to prove. I think they will be in shock when they see the condition of HistoryHunter's childhood find. http://www.gloriafarley.com/chap11.htm



THE ALABAMA COIN


"This Phoenician copy of a half-dollar-size coin from ancient Syracuse may provide definitive evidence supporting Professor Mark McMenamin's theory that the ancient Phoenicians were the first Old World explorers in the New World."


THE ARKANSAS COIN

It appeared ancient indeed, worn and corroded, with a green patina in places against the copper color of the coin (Fig 11-2). It was about the size of a fifty-cent piece, but it was thick in the center and thin on the edges. There was a small round hole at top center, as if the coin might once have been worn as a pendant. On the obverse, a female profile with a straight high-bridged Grecian nose, faced left. In her curly hair was a three-pronged ornament. Around the edge swam four dolphins. The reverse bore the head and neck of a lively horse, facing left. He had erect ears and a short mane. His mouth was open, as if he were snorting. Behind his head was a stylized tree with eight branches, uprooted, showing five crooked roots. Under the horse head was a very worn inscription. Only four of the symbols were now plain. The edge of the coin had once been encircled with a row of tiny dots, worn off except on the sides.




Fig. 11-2 Arkansas coin, obverse (left) and reverse (right). Photographs by Richard Pruitt.

After two hours' conversation, Kelley allowed the coin to be mailed to Boston for identification. Totten and Fell both examined it closely, the former using a Zeiss binocular microscope, with a magnification of 40 power. Totten stated, "The coin is bronze, imperfectly round, measuring 29.5 by 25.0 millimeters in diameter, and weighing 7.63 grams. It has suffered from corrosion. There is no question of its antiquity or its authenticity. The patina on the coin and in the hole has several colors: green, oxblood, yellow, and tan. Indications are that it has remained buried for centuries."

HISTORY HUNTERS WISCONSIN COIN

It is smaller than the other two; about quarter size.

Great post and a good view of the 3 coins.

How come no better pics of the Arkansas coin? It was the Alabama coin that was lost.

 

[Dano Sverige]

Re: Ancient coin ?

As Mrs Oriblanco says,it's a Phoenecian copy of an ancient Syracusan coin,used in Carthage.It's STILL ancient! (my point all along lol)

As to the different size..does "dime" "nickel" "quarter" ring any bells? Maybe it's just smaller change?

My opinion on why the palm tree roots? - Maybe it signifies a coin being used away from it's place of origin (Phoenicia/Carthage) and into a "new world" (America's) ? As in "uprooted".

Questions questions

 

[history hunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

The coin feels some what heavy and perhaps someone tried to put some sort of silver platting on the coin when turned into a medallion. The coin dealer seemed to think it was real. If it is real, then it's in great condition. Also the second pics of the coin were taken with a flash, the first pics shows more of some type of corrosion on the coin.

If you could take some more pics front, back and edge, taken in daylight, flash off with a colored background may help. The first 2 pics are blurry.

Also the diameter in mm and weight in grams to compare with the others found.

I will get the coin out of the safety deposit box and try to take some better pics and measure and weigh it. Thanks

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Ancient coin ?

I hope we find out also.

I site David Sears is because some 'experts' will put down a coin so they can buy it cheaper. (I've seen that happen).

He needs someone with no "personal interest" in the item, rather than - what is this, is it real, etc. (though, he may find a picture of his coin in a book somewhere in the future)


http://www.davidrsear.com/certification.html



B

I don't care who David is, but I beat even he could tell from the photo.

What this reminds me of is selling early coins on Ebay and the odd person asking me if it was authentic. That basically said to me some people really can't judge an old coin from new. Happened with relics too, I'd have 50 listings, all old stuff yet people would ask if one particular item was a reproduction. (when it very clearly was not)

You want to know how modern this coin is. Put it on Ebay with good pictures calling it ancient and rare and you'll be bombarbed with messages saying it's modern. Hell I'll buy you a new detector if it doesn't happen. Cru, you buy em one too?

 

[johnnyi]

Re: Ancient coin ?

Sverige, I think it's possible to prove with common logic that this coin is neither ancient nor is it an ancient reproduction. I know you understand how ancient coins like this one is supposed to be were manufactured; by placing a planchet between the two dies and striking it.

Look at the denticles (on both sides). This facsimile is intended to give the impression that the front edge was weakly struck, as the denticles (abruptly) end in the middle of nowhere. Yet the relief design in the nearest location to the "missing" denticles is crystal clear and in high relief. If you look at the verso of the coin you'll see what one might expect on an ancient coin, where the design is also high relief, and the missing denticles are "missing" on account of them falling off the edge of the planchet.

Then look at thousands of ancient coins which are boldly struck like this one is. Try to find any such example anywhere which shows the phenomenon of missing denticles (coupled with a high relief design) where they are not missing because the planchet was smaller than the denticles circumference, or missing because theentire relief strike was weak. I don't think you can find any example that shows this. If you can, then maybe you have the seed of an argument.

 

[Dano Sverige]

Re: Ancient coin ?

A fair enough point.Very well i bow to all the years of gathered coin experience from you all and will shut the hell up, lol.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

A fair enough point.Very well i bow to all the years of gathered coin experience from you all and will shut the hell up, lol.

Look Dano. if you have any links or evidence or any other reason to believe this is ancient, then please tell us. If you find evidence I will be the first to congratulate you. But you have nothing...zilch. In the first three posts all you talked about is close minded Americans. You are only making yourself look argumentative, amatuerish and foolish. Im sorry Dano, but this is the appearance you are portraying.

Some of our members have considerable experience. They may not always take the time to explain but they have a proven track record in the past over and again.

1-As Mrs Oriblanco says,it's a Phoenecian copy of an ancient Syracusan coin,used in Carthage.It's STILL ancient! (my point all along lol)

2-As to the different size..does "dime" "nickel" "quarter" ring any bells? Maybe it's just smaller change?

3-My opinion on why the palm tree roots? - Maybe it signifies a coin being used away from it's place of origin (Phoenicia/Carthage) and into a "new world" (America's) ? As in "uprooted".

Questions questions

1-We need a matching example of a known original before anyone can call it a copy. That is what I cant find and no picture has been presented. I say its a fantasy coin.

2-As to the different sizes. They all have the identical missing denticals. How can this be?

3-As to the trees, the professor has already come to the same theory about the uprooted palm.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

I will get the coin out of the safety deposit box and try to take some better pics and measure and weigh it. Thanks

Safe deposit box? When did you secure it there? Did you know of its importance before posting here?


Its cool. I really hope it is the real thing. I think its a banner find ancient or not because of its important connection to the "Carthaginians in America" theory. I VOTE BANNER!

 

[Dano Sverige]

Re: Ancient coin ?

That wasn't sarcasm my friend.Just me bowing to the wealth of superior knowledge and expertise.That's all.Sorry it came across to you the way it did.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Ancient coin ?

That wasn't sarcasm my friend.Just me bowing to the wealth of superior knowledge and expertise.That's all.Sorry it came across to you the way it did.

You have a sense of humor.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: Ancient coin ?

That wasn't sarcasm my friend.Just me bowing to the wealth of superior knowledge and expertise.That's all.Sorry it came across to you the way it did.

You have a sense of humor.

Is that course offered in the UK? Silver Searcher may want to enroll.