Agreement between Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar (8/8/1878) - what was it all about?

[Hal Croves]

I am dizzy from trying to keep up with this thread.

waltz, was an antique at the time of this agreement...since there was no social security, an old man traded off his property for physical accommodation at the end of his life.
to be comfortable at the end of his life.

Dead on. So, why wasn't the agreement enforced? Why wouldn't the Starars insist that Waltz Walzer recover at their home. Even if the Starar home was slightly damaged in the flood, after a few weeks they should have been prepared and chomping on the bit to get control over over the old man (and what he might reveal to others). Forget the mine, there was land to be had with one signature and a pending death. It smells like something bad. I think that Julia and others may have worked to keep Waltz from the Starars. That is speculation, but long term, it would have been inappropriate for Waltz Walzer to stay with a woman who was not white. That is, if Julia was something other than white. I am honestly not sure anymore.

 

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[chlsbrns]

goldmine you seem to have gotten your facts wrong.

Tewksberry news articles:

Son Died at Starar's: Chronicling America - The Library of Congress

Real Estate Transaction: Chronicling America - The Library of Congress

James & John Tewksberry died: Chronicling America - The Library of Congress

Wounded: Chronicling America - The Library of Congress

Convicted Cattle Theft: Chronicling America - The Library of Congress

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal:

I don't recall the circumstances exactly, but by "washed away" I don't mean totally obliterated without a trace remaining. What remained of his home may very well have been an adobe ruin. The tree in which Rheiney found Waltz was probably still standing, as well as other things things which may have helped him find the box, based on Waltz's directions. I don't see any problem with that scenario at all.

I am sorry for not responding sooner to this. It was not from a lack of interest. I needed to think about your scenario and to compare it with what there is of the event.
If the home, a modest adobe structure, was completely - lets say destroyed, how would Rhiney find the exact location? Even with some ruin, the deposit of soils must have been huge when the waters receded. Adobe turns to liquid in running water and I think that the recovery, after a flood of several feet, would have been very difficult for one young man who as it appears lacked the sense to record the directions to a fortune. He had Waltz Walzer's trust, but Jacob knew Rhiney was limited.. hence the drawing. The recovery as Higham tells us, was from an old adobe ruin. Waltz Walzer directed Rhieny to the ruins where in the corner of one room, he found "three canvas sacks of gold ore".

Now that is from Higham, who interviewed many of the important survivors. Rhiney's brother Herman included. It is what I consider to be one of the few "original" clues with a very credible and clear provenance.
So, will you name the source of your story? It is not for me as I could make a reasonable guess but some reading this might be wondering what the heck it is we are debating.
Post the name and then we can attempt to see which character is was more credible.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

I don't know that a lot of Dutch Hunters consider Higham to be a "credible" source. Believe you could start with him calling Waltz......Walzer. Heck, I thought it was Waltzer......

Take care and Happy New Year!

Joe

 

[Garry]

I am dizzy from trying to keep up with this thread.

waltz, was an antique at the time of this agreement...since there was no social security, an old man traded off his property for physical accommodation at the end of his life.
to be comfortable at the end of his life.

Pip,

Waltz was about 68. I'm am offended that you would resort to referring to those of us over 68 as antiques!! I know you have a reputation

with the moderators for this type of activity and I hope they ignore this attack but you could be more considerate of those of us in our senior years.

You will notice it's usually us "old men" who strive to be cute with our one-liners on the forums.

Paul, it looks like some of us cats may be out of the herd!!

Garry

 

[roadrunner]

Was the ruins Rhiney was sent to his house, or the ruins or house in the canyon where Waltz stayed at before going to his mine. Or where they camped at.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I don't know that a lot of Dutch Hunters consider Higham to be a "credible" source. Believe you could start with him calling Waltz......Walzer. Heck, I thought it was Waltzer......

Take care and Happy New Year!

Joe

You have written that about Higham on more than one occasion and I can not help but wonder why. You perhaps more than most people understand the game that is being played out there and you crack quite a few nuts when you feel someone is being disengerous or intentionally misleading but, and this is only my opinion, you have certain limits on what you are willing to openly write about and challange. I am not writing about a cave of gold bars or directions to some useless hole in the ground, I am writing about truth, historical truth about the people who settled the area and their roll in this mystery.
Why don't you post what really happened to Higham. How his work was taken from him, how it was intentionally altered to conceal information and confused with lies.
What group was responsible for that and how come talk about them is off limits?
What they did to Higham was down right wrong and at some point, that truth will be known by everyone who cares.

 

[cactusjumper]

You have written that about Higham on more than one occasion and I can not help but wonder why. You perhaps more than most people understand the game that is being played out there and you crack quite a few nuts when you feel someone is being disengerous or intentionally misleading but, and this is only my opinion, you have certain limits on what you are willing to openly write about and challange. I am not writing about a cave of gold bars or directions to some useless hole in the ground, I am writing about truth, historical truth about the people who settled the area and their roll in this mystery.
Why don't you post what really happened to Higham. How his work was taken from him, how it was intentionally altered to conceal information and confused with lies.
What group was responsible for that and how come talk about them is off limits?
What they did to Higham was down right wrong and at some point, that truth will be known by everyone who cares.

Hal,

As I have personal connections with LaFrance's cave of gold bars, I don't agree with your equating it with a "useless hole in the ground". Having friends and family who held the LaFrance gold bar in their hands, takes it a step farther for me.

Since Higham is long since dead, I can't understand why you don't write what really happened to him? I have heard it before, but assume you have more than just another story.

Happy New Year,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Matt:

You and Hal appear to be suggesting the same thing. That Waltz kept no gold at his homestead.
Seems obvious that if Rhiney had been sent to the ruins/foundation of the old house at the head of the canyon, and that from there he successfully recovered one of Waltz's caches, then Rhiney was indeed a fool. For he had been within a short distance of the mine (Clay believes within 1/4 mile). Once his father and brother showed up, he should have been able to take them right to it.

Hal:" Post the name and then we can attempt to see which character is was more credible."
Joe might be right.. "something Waltzer said".
But I'm pretty sure, without looking, Bark or Ely....maybe both.

 

[FEMF]

Hal,

As I have personal connections with LaFrance's cave of gold bars, I don't agree with your equating it with a "useless hole in the ground". Having friends and family who held the LaFrance gold bar in their hands, takes it a step farther for me.

Since Higham is long since dead, I can't understand why you don't write what really happened to him? I have heard it before, but assume you have more than just another story.

Happy New Year,

Joe

Hello Joe
Can you, or anyone hear, tell from Jacob's hand wtitting, if he was left handed, or right?
Thanks in advance, FEMF

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

As I have personal connections with LaFrance's cave of gold bars, I don't agree with your equating it with a "useless hole in the ground". Having friends and family who held the LaFrance gold bar in their hands, takes it a step farther for me.

Since Higham is long since dead, I can't understand why you don't write what really happened to him? I have heard it before, but assume you have more than just another story.

Happy New Year,

Joe

Ya, you missed that one. I wasn't dismissing and idea of the cave of gold bars, in fact I find it more than believable.
The Dutchman's "hole in the ground" is what I was describing as useless. And it is for anyone who finds it and reports it.

But honestly, gold is a useless thing. I was trying to explain to you that these things are secondary to those of us who only want to learn the "truth" and have no real hope of finding treasure.

Those who are too far from the Superstitions to give it a regular go depend on the tidbits of information gathered from people like yourself... people who have spent a lifetime thinking about and living the mystery.

So, what I am troubled over is your lack of fairness when it comes to openly looking at all the groups involved.

Can you understand that? That your word has some weight on TN, and that there are people who look to you for illumination?

When your gone, and all that remains of your research is theses posts, eventually some eager newbie is going to look at your roll in all this and perhaps delve into your life. They will see your silence on this topic or your refusal to comment on the group in question and wonder what held you back. Family? Friends? Faith? You will not be there to explain yourself and the answers will have been lost.

Why?

 

[Somero]

Hal

I'm not defending Cactus Jumper, but going to throw out a thought. I think many of the older Dutch Hunters have already shared their ideas with us and most do not have some "secret agenda" Perhaps more of a reluctance to get involved on the internet because of the number of "Trolls" waiting to discredit anybody they feel might be a threat to them. Constant badgering by less scrupulous people could get tiresome after a few years, I would think.

That said and after meeting a few Dutch Hunters, everyone has information they would not discuss with random people, it takes time to get to know who you are dealing with and build some trust. I have lots of ideas and theories but will not share them since I have no idea who could be reading and might just go find what I'm looking for before I do. So I really don't blame anyone for not "opening up" especially if others have given them a hard time and accused them of dishonesty over the years.

The Joys of Dutch Hunting who can you trust, maybe the guy in the pink dress who got his information 3rd hand

 

[cactusjumper]

Ya, you missed that one. I wasn't dismissing and idea of the cave of gold bars, in fact I find it more than believable.
The Dutchman's "hole in the ground" is what I was describing as useless. And it is for anyone who finds it and reports it.

But honestly, gold is a useless thing. I was trying to explain to you that these things are secondary to those of us who only want to learn the "truth" and have no real hope of finding treasure.

Those who are too far from the Superstitions to give it a regular go depend on the tidbits of information gathered from people like yourself... people who have spent a lifetime thinking about and living the mystery.

So, what I am troubled over is your lack of fairness when it comes to openly looking at all the groups involved.

Can you understand that? That your word has some weight on TN, and that there are people who look to you for illumination?

When your gone, and all that remains of your research is theses posts, eventually some eager newbie is going to look at your roll in all this and perhaps delve into your life. They will see your silence on this topic or your refusal to comment on the group in question and wonder what held you back. Family? Friends? Faith? You will not be there to explain yourself and the answers will have been lost.

Why?

Hal,

First of all, you are giving me way too much credit. Remember, I never searched for the LDM......on my own. On the other hand, I have been with others who were after Waltz's mine, as well as doing as much research as possible over the last 60 or so years.

If, by group, you mean the folks who worked on the Pit Mine, it's well know by most in the community who they are. It's been more than hinted at here, any number of times. You are just not paying close enough attention. I don't mention their names because I consider them personal friends.

There are some people who give my word some weight but many more who don't consider it at all.

I'm sorry you don't think I am being fair. Many people discuss the Pit Mine and who worked it at the Rendezvous. Those kinds of discussions are why I started the event. IMHO, it don't get any fairer than that. My mind has been failing for a number of years now. Realizing that, I try not to lead people in any direction. I know I slip and fail at that endeavor now and again, but I have good intentions.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Yes a lot of info! A 1892 Phoenix directory that does not contain Waltz or the Starar Brothers. Surely someone as influential as Starar would be in the directory if he was in the Phoenix area. Court records from California. A Biography, California land & claim transfers and a few other bits of info. Nothing that you can look up for yourself.

What do you have to back up your statement:

"If Jacob did return to CA in 1892, he must have returned back to AZ in 1893 where he died"

What is the basis for your statement? Surely there must be a newspaper report, tax report, tax record, diary entry or other source that causes you to believe it's a fact and not just your belief.

Busy day today!

Merry Christmas All!

Still hoping to get additional information from chlsbrns regarding Andrew's return to California and all the specifics on the California public records and documents that can help flesh out the Starar's lives.

In the meantime, Greg Davis was kind enough to send me copies of the Arizona obituaries and death related information for both Jacob and Andrew Starar while I was away for Christmas. Sorry I was unable to provide that documentation until now.

The following are the newspaper reports indicating that Andrew Starar (Starr) passed away in Phoenix on June 2, 1883 and his funeral was on June 6. There is also a newspaper report of the passing of Jacob Starar (Starr) on March 21, 1893 which was ruled a suicide by strychnine poisoning.

If one or both of the brothers did return to California, it appears that returned back to Arizona again prior to their deaths.

 

[chlsbrns]

Still hoping to get additional information from chlsbrns regarding Andrew's return to California and all the specifics on the California public records and documents that can help flesh out the Starar's lives.

In the meantime, Greg Davis was kind enough to send me copies of the Arizona obituaries and death related information for both Jacob and Andrew Starar while I was away for Christmas. Sorry I was unable to provide that documentation until now.

The following are the newspaper reports indicating that Andrew Starar (Starr) passed away in Phoenix on June 2, 1883 and his funeral was on June 6. There is also a newspaper report of the passing of Jacob Starar (Starr) on March 21, 1893 which was ruled a suicide by strychnine poisoning.

If one or both of the brothers did return to California, it appears that returned back to Arizona again prior to their deaths.

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Are you really going to make me point out the numerous problems with the obituaries?

Or can i just say that someone (not you) obviously fabricated them?

 

[cactusjumper]

Are you really going to make me point out the numerous problems with the obituaries?

Or can i just say that someone (not you) obviously fabricated them?

Chis,

For what possible reason Is that also obvious?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Joe - I think you already know the answer to your question.

 

[Cubfan64]

Are you really going to make me point out the numerous problems with the obituaries?

Or can i just say that someone (not you) obviously fabricated them?

Newspaper articles are notorious for having errors in them. I have geneology of my own family dating back more than a hundred years and I doubt a single article is completely accurate - either misspelled names, wrong dates, etc... Because of that, I don't consider newspaper articles to be primary sources for anything, however they often are either the only information we have to go on, or they provide clues that can lead one to real primary sources.

You believe someone fabricated these. Do you mean prior to the newspapers printing the information, or do you mean someone completely fabricated the newspaper articles themselves?

Incidentally, there is a History of Humboldt County available online which consists of ~1300 pages of text written in 1915. The name Starrar appears only one time when it's mentioned that a Mr. Casper Ricks purchased the Starrar claim for $1150 in June of 1862. There is also the mention of a woman from that area marrying a Dr. Starr (dentist) at Reno Nevada (seems to me you mentioned something about Dr. Andrew Starar at one point didn't you?).

It's curious to me that as "famous" as the Starar's are supposed to be in that area (a hotel was supposedly named after them? Andrew supposedly owned almost all of Fortuna at one time?) that they wouldn't be mentioned more than 1 time.

I've seen nothing whatsoever to even begin to suggest that Andrew and/or Jacob ever returned to California once they set up in Phoenix, but I'm certainly open to other theories if there's any evidence to back them up.

 

[cw0909]

who owned/owns jacob wally / Jacob Waltz land part # 1

i found some info about the land listed in the para below ill do it in partsi used this site
Search - BLM GLO Records
part # 1
using the info below, i did not find a land patent issued to Ferdinand Magdeburg
or jacob waltz/wally




Continued on top of page 323
party of the second part and the further consideration
of the sum of fifty dollars to him in hand paid
by the party of the second part the receipt whereof is
hereby acknowledged hath sold granted confirmed
remised and released to the said party of the second
part the following property real and personal towit;
all the right title and interest of the said party of
the first part in and to the north east quarter of
section sixteen (16) in in township one (1) north
of Range three (3) east of the Gila and salt River
meridian and of the district of lands subject to
sale at the Land office at Florence Arizona with all
the improvements and appurtenances thereunto belong –
ing or in any wise appertaining Also all the grain now
due and owing from the estate of Ferdinand Magde –
burg deceased be the same more or less also all the chick –
ens now on said Ranch or land above described and con –
veyed also two horses now owned by said party
of the first part and all other personal property of every
kind and description now owned by said party of the
first part whether legal equtable whether real personal
or mixed giving to the said party of the second part
full possession and property in all of the said estate
and property above described.
jacob wally
Maricopa County Recorder


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