🥇 BANNER Absolute find of a lifetime: 1786 New York NON VI VIRTUTE VICI

[CrazySlasher]

I'm still in absolute shock. I went out to place that I've been to dozens and have done really well. After digging a bunch of junk targets and a WWII button I decided to try the other side of the area where I've never had any luck. Previously I'd only dug trash targets out of there. But today I noticed a stonewall that I hadn't seen before. After a few minutes I got a strong signal and almost passed it over because of all the trash of my previous times being out there. Out popped this copper. I knew it was different and that I had seen it before but I wasn't sure what it was. I texted a friend the picture and that I thought it might be a bust of George Washington. When I got home I looked it up and almost felt faint. I remembered looking at it before and not thinking much of it because I assumed I would never find one. I will be going back tomorrow and spending the day there. I have no cleaned it and haven't really handled it. The first picture was when it was fresh out of the ground.

 

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[CrazySlasher]

Interesting to note that the cross reference in Breens on the small head was listed as a "Forgery" by the ANS in 2007.

Here is a picture of a forgery, which is different than mine: ANS Magazine | Summer07 / Liberty

 

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[hogge]

I feel stupid asking, but what does that mean? Also, you are correct that arm is pointing in a different location. You guys have made me extremely nervous.

The coin listed in Breens Encyclopedia was found to be a fake by The American Numismatic Society. It has nothing to do with yours. You could have something pretty special, or you could not. It's a nail biter! I hate when I do that. You should get some info in a day or two.....or three..... This is making for a great "Who Dunnit'"

 

[CrazySlasher]

The coin listed in Breens Encyclopedia was found to be a fake by The American Numismatic Society. It has nothing to do with yours. You could have something pretty special, or you could not. It's a nail biter! I hate when I do that. You should get some info in a day or two.....or three..... This is making for a great "Who Dunnit'"

It's also making me sick to my stomach. Literally.

 

[dfx-kevin]

i know the feeling, my profile picture is my best. i love the history our dug up coins tell what a great find! you'll remember it forever.

 

[tidetraveler]

Congrats on your Banner Find! Keep it for a while and then share it for $

 

[Bubba65]

Hi is there any more information on this great coin or is it still a mystery that IronPatch has uncovered .

Bubba65

 

[Iron Patch]

Hi is there any more information on this great coin or is it still a mystery that IronPatch has uncovered .

Bubba65

At least two very well known people in the Colonial coin world do think it looks different and has their interest, but I think it will be a little time before anything can be confirmed because it will almost certainly have to be looked at in person. So far everything is still looking really positive.

 

[ckrakowski]

hi cshufflepuff saw this on reddit

 

[hogge]

hi cshufflepuff saw this on reddit

What's it under or posted as?

 

[Silver Searcher]

Wow a great find, and the new information that IP has revealed has just sent it of the chart. Just wish I knew a little about the bugger On a more serious note about the cleaning, again great advice by IP and others, I wouldn't let anybody touch that unless there was some guarantee. But what I can tell you is when the BM cleaned the Staffordshire Gold Saxon hoard, they used natures own items,( Hawthorn spikes) so as not to scratch the delicate Gold artifacts.

SS

 

[Breezie]

OMGoodness what a find! You're right, that is a find of a lifetime!!! Congratulations on finding it and for making the BANNER with that coin. I look forward to an update on the grade. Breezie

 

[BuckleBoy]

If this could be a new variety, you MUST take it to someone reputable to look at in-person. Cleaning issues aside, the first thing is to figure out exactly what you've got.

P.S.--what you said about "not worth cleaning them" on the coppers you've dug in the past is absolutely wrong. IF any of them can be attributed by type, die variety, etc. then you must do that in order to know whether you have any $1000 coins hiding in there--regardless of the fact that they might look to you like a piece of junk now. AND, even if that weren't true--which it is!--those common ground-found coppers provide you with opportunities to experiment with cleaning methods, noting your successes and failures and honing your skills, so that you'd know how to proceed with cleaning a valuable copper like this one might be. All BS aside, that is just the SMART way to see things.

The best finds sometimes don't look like much. My oldest coin looked like a brass washer (1721 Colonies Francioses), and the US plate I dug today my hunting buddy said he probably would've just pocketed it as a bit of melted lead and not realized what it was.

-Buck

 

[CrazySlasher]

If this could be a new variety, you MUST take it to someone reputable to look at in-person. Cleaning issues aside, the first thing is to figure out exactly what you've got.

P.S.--what you said about "not worth cleaning them" on the coppers you've dug in the past is absolutely wrong. IF any of them can be attributed by type, die variety, etc. then you must do that in order to know whether you have any $1000 coins hiding in there--regardless of the fact that they might look to you like a piece of junk now. AND, even if that weren't true--which it is!--those common ground-found coppers provide you with opportunities to experiment with cleaning methods, noting your successes and failures and honing your skills, so that you'd know how to proceed with cleaning a valuable copper like this one might be. All BS aside, that is just the SMART way to see things.

The best finds sometimes don't look like much. My oldest coin looked like a brass washer (1721 Colonies Francioses), and the US plate I dug today my hunting buddy said he probably would've just pocketed it as a bit of melted lead and not realized what it was.

-Buck

I've been talking with IP and Don quite a bit and I will be contacting someone on Monday in my area to to take a look at it in person. As far as cleaning my other coppers, most are far beyond any recognition with cleaning. The soil where I live is extremely acidic and destroys almost any detail. Also, most of them I do know what they are. But you are right, I do have a some that I need to take some time with. Life is just very hectic as of late and I haven't been able to sit down and do a lot of things I'd like to do.

 

[hogge]

I would take the drive to Northeast Numismatics in Concord Ma. You would have to make an appointment, but he would be one of the best to look at it. Don't take it to some "schmuck" who knows nothing about colonials, as it would be a total waste of time. Although this guy, is one of the best, (Tom Caldwell or Chris Clements), he'll probably try and make an offer. Or....get you to make an offer to him. He's probably an hour away from you. Hogge

 

[Iron Patch]

he'll probably try and make an offer. Or....get you to make an offer to him.

Of course, who wouldn't. And even what sounds like a great deal you can almost be sure wouldn't be for a few reasons.

1) If it somehow turns out to be the same variety these have been going for a premium so the Redbook is basically out the window.

2) If it's a new variety the Redbook really goes out the window - hell just burn it.

3) There's at least one very big player in the wings interested in knowing more about it and to cut him out would be like chopping off your right foot before a 100 yard dash. Rushing a deal usually just creates a middle man to grab a huge cut because quite often the item eventually makes it's way to the top guys.... so you're far better to wait and deal with them yourself!

 

[hogge]

I wasn't implying he should go to Northeast for an offer, just telling him what to expect if he does take it there. It sounds like CRAZY is rushing things a bit. If he wants confirmation of it being authentic, take it to Tom Caldwell. He's close, and honest. A "regular" coin guy, will have little knowledge with this one. Patience!! Slow down a bit CRAZY. I'm sure some big colonial collectors have already heard this coin is out there. Don and IP will give advice you should follow. I wouldn't listen to anyone else! The Hogge

 

[hogge]

Have we even gotten a weight and measurement on this thing yet??

 

[CrazySlasher]

I wasn't implying he should go to Northeast for an offer, just telling him what to expect if he does take it there. It sounds like CRAZY is rushing things a bit. If he wants confirmation of it being authentic, take it to Tom Caldwell. He's close, and honest. A "regular" coin guy, will have little knowledge with this one. Patience!! Slow down a bit CRAZY. I'm sure some big colonial collectors have already heard this coin is out there. Don and IP will give advice you should follow. I wouldn't listen to anyone else! The Hogge

I'm not rushing anything. I'll send you a PM.

 

[Iron Patch]

I wasn't implying he should go to Northeast for an offer, just telling him what to expect if he does take it there. It sounds like CRAZY is rushing things a bit. If he wants confirmation of it being authentic, take it to Tom Caldwell. He's close, and honest. A "regular" coin guy, will have little knowledge with this one. Patience!! Slow down a bit CRAZY. I'm sure some big colonial collectors have already heard this coin is out there. Don and IP will give advice you should follow. I wouldn't listen to anyone else! The Hogge

Yeah he's good. Taking his time and thinking about my $500 offer.

 

[MiamiFox]

I found this:

1786 COPPER New York Copper, NON VI VIRTUTE VICI, Small Head XF40 PCGS. CAC. Baker-13, W-5730, R.6. Ex: F. Dabney Caldwell. The NON VI VIRTUTE VICI coppers are a significant rarity coveted by both Washingtonia and Early American collectors. Breen (1988) and Rulau and Fuld (1999) assert that James F. Atlee, later of Machin's Mills, was the engraver. The Whitman Encyclopedia simply states "minter and location unknown."

The legends are in Latin, as was the tradition during the late 18th century. The reverse legend, NEO-EBORACENSIS, is a belabored translation of New York. The obverse legend, NON VI VIRTUTE VICI, means "Not by violence but by excellence have I conquered." The portrait is almost certainly that of George Washington, since no other American in 1786 could command such praise.

Two other NON VI VIRTUTE VICI die pairs are known, the Large Head Baker-12 and the Shield Reverse Baker-13C. Both are extremely rare and neither is listed in the Guide Book.
Although Rulau and Ford estimate about 25 specimens are known for the Small Head Baker-13, the variety seldom surfaces. John J. Ford, Jr., had an example, of course, which sold for $37,375 in a 2004 Stack's auction