A Heap of Proof.

[Hal Croves]

Hi Hal, are you sure that it isn't Jugando' = game, playing.

Mendoza Jeguando is how it has been transcribed.
Hard to tell from this image.
Thank you for the help.


Image: G. Davis
View attachment 1193741

 

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[Not Peralta]

:NPcat:

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hal, so it is a family name. That is different, some have no meaning.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

N P, I have been giving your 'li'l map some thought lately, It definitely shows a mining operation in the approx locstion of the Superstitions AND it is dated long before the Dutchman, and indicates it with a heart ? .and, and --- There is a tie in.

Gotta mull this over------need coffee.

 

[somehiker]

That's way too much coffee, but could be a tie-in to a sort-of legend.
How about it's not to a mining complex....but to a warehouse ( almacén ) with a triangular entrance, where everything previously stored at the various locations shown was ultimately taken, and put away. A small carved heart, black in color with two points as illustrated on the diagram, is the key to the entrance and directly above.

Regards:SH.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi some hiker, excellent observation, but I would suggrst that it was taking a step backwards, however you make an excellent point

Better ?

 

[deducer]

N P, I have been giving your 'li'l map some thought lately, It definitely shows a mining operation in the approx locstion of the Superstitions AND it is dated long before the Dutchman, and indicates it with a heart ? .and, and --- There is a tie in.

Gotta mull this over------need coffee.

Which "lil map" is that? I tried looking through the thread and couldn't find it.

 

[sdcfia]

Which "lil map" is that? I tried looking through the thread and couldn't find it.

Reputedly came from the Noss Gang. No provenance. Self-serving. Good luck.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi SDC, you posted ---- No provenance. Self-serving. Good luck

perhaps not, but it has data that Noss could never have had in his time. Some of whch were positively ID'd in 1992.

It is of the type of format used earlier, and semi explains the fact that a no of mines contributed to the Caballos depositories on the long trip to Rome.

It was apparently made by a Jesuit, and the dates correspond to Tayopa's heyday, they cover the US civil war, when the depostories were abandoned with no hope of recovery.

Coffee ??

 

[deducer]

Reputedly came from the Noss Gang. No provenance. Self-serving. Good luck.

View attachment 1193970

Thanks.. am quite aware of that map but thought it was something TT had furnished a long time ago and not NP.

 

[somehiker]

Reputedly came from the Noss Gang. No provenance. Self-serving. Good luck.

View attachment 1193970

Reputedly yes. At least according to the person who originally posted it in the VP thread.
So self-serving to NP in a show and tell sort of way, though not so much for the Noss group IMO.
Noss may have owned a collection of maps and/or copies of maps, as many of us do. This doesn't mean that all need apply to our own own search area (s).
Even though I myself had, and still have some doubts about the provenance, due mainly to the "apache springs" wording, I still find this document very interesting.
Whoever made it....or the original it was based on.... had access to information IMO, that very few had at the time.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning some hiker, Yes, the lil map IS very interesting. It indicates that a number of mines contributed to the Caballo Mts depositories, via the long trip to Rome, and that it was made by a Jesuit. It is typical of the format used at that time, and possibly the dating is correct -- during the US civil war period.

coffee ?

Apache springs wording ? Clarify if possible please.

 

[sdcfia]

Reputedly yes. At least according to the person who originally posted it in the VP thread.
So self-serving to NP in a show and tell sort of way, though not so much for the Noss group IMO.
Noss may have owned a collection of maps and/or copies of maps, as many of us do. This doesn't mean that all need apply to our own own search area (s).
Even though I myself had, and still have some doubts about the provenance, due mainly to the "apache springs" wording, I still find this document very interesting.
Whoever made it....or the original it was based on.... had access to information IMO, that very few had at the time.

" ... information that very few had at the time." I guess this depends on when the map was drawn, who drew it, and why, eh?

Yes, the chart is very interesting. POOF! - it suddenly appears on the Internet. Those who embrace the "lil map" are likely to accept it outright if their belief systems are focused solely on Jesuit "treasure legends". Those who aren't married to unproven "legends" tread more cautiously. Considering the alleged source here, this map doesn't qualify as even circumstantial evidence, IMO.

 

[somehiker]

"Apache Springs" is an English place name Joseph......doesn't suit the rest of what's on the doc.
That is why it's troubling, but maybe whoever made this copy added it because they thought it belonged there. Or misread it.
And I also think most folks will read this "map" as you do, and interpret "caballo" as meaning the "Caballo mtns." And that the seven places above the "Sierpe" refer to mines. Also that the two almacén are in separate locations, whereas they may be one and the same. That symbol at the bottom of the dashed line may answer that question, with one radial pointing to the relevant location of the heart.
I said over a year ago that I would hike out to a place in the mountains for a closer look at an area where I had previously been and had seen something resembling that particular heart symbol. I did, and spent the better part of the day out there. What I found gave me a whole different perspective on that diagram, and I will be going back in the future to see what else I may find.

 

[somehiker]

" ... information that very few had at the time." I guess this depends on when the map was drawn, who drew it, and why, eh?

Yes, the chart is very interesting. POOF! - it suddenly appears on the Internet. Those who embrace the "lil map" are likely to accept it outright if their belief systems are focused solely on Jesuit "treasure legends". Those who aren't married to unproven "legends" tread more cautiously. Considering the alleged source here, this map doesn't qualify as even circumstantial evidence, IMO.

I don't think its based on a Jesuit map, but it may be two or more versions removed from an older document that they themselves were interested in.
Perhaps something related to the pre-Jesuit era. Aztec treasures and the 7 cities, for example.

 

[Not Peralta]

sdcfia,,POOF,NO PROVENANCE?,I guess you mean PROVENANCE like the stone tablets have, or the stone crosses,or like the dutchmans map,or most of the treasure storiesthat have ever been put on TN, this map was introduced to TN several years ago by me, It was introduced to the public more than 20 years ago,It had been in a private collection for more than 70 years, and in the 1800's was copied by someone else from the original, Because of the broken promises behind this map being made public, people should be glad to even view it at all, no one is twisting any ones arm to use it for anything,If you don't like the Info it has to offer, don't use it, NP

 

[cactusjumper]

Reverse engineered maps are always interesting. Personally, I would place it right up there with the picture of the Burn's Ranch Jesuit mission. Both have the same provenance and type of age that makes them believable.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[sdcfia]

sdcfia,,POOF,NO PROVENANCE?,I guess you mean PROVENANCE like the stone tablets have, or the stone crosses,or like the dutchmans map,or most of the treasure storiesthat have ever been put on TN, this map was introduced to TN several years ago by me, It was introduced to the public more than 20 years ago,It had been in a private collection for more than 70 years, and in the 1800's was copied by someone else from the original, Because of the broken promises behind this map being made public, people should be glad to even view it at all, no one is twisting any ones arm to use it for anything,If you don't like the Info it has to offer, don't use it, NP

That's the problem I have with these things, NP. Why would this map have been "made public" at all if the owner felt it contained useful information? Just to help out all them treasure hunters out there? Give 'em something to look for? If you came across a "genuine treasure map", would you share it with the public?

 

[azdave35]

That's the problem I have with these things, NP. Why would this map have been "made public" at all if the owner felt it contained useful information? Just to help out all them treasure hunters out there? Give 'em something to look for? If you came across a "genuine treasure map", would you share it with the public?

these maps are made public because someone spent years trying to figure them out and finally gave up on them...usually those old maps are only of use to the person that made it

 

[sdcfia]

these maps are made public because someone spent years trying to figure them out and finally gave up on them...usually those old maps are only of use to the person that made it

Well, I'll agree with the second part of your reply, but the first part ... that's debatable, IMO.