A Heap of Proof.

[Hal Croves]

Morning Hal: The 1847 prob. came when they gave up on retrieving anything within the newly formed boundries of the US.

Yes, but who gave up?
The Jesuits were long gone by 1848.
Most don't know that 300 Texans tried to take Santa Fe in 1841. It was a complete disaster that General Sibley duplicated twenty years later.

Kearny marched to CA in 46 with not much in the way to stop him. So, where did they, the resistance, the northern Mexican Army go?

 

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[Hal Croves]

For those of you who are on the fence about this particular solution to the stone maps, a little meat on the bone. Of course, without an intimate knowledge of the Superstitions, this image will mean nothing. But, for those who have it, this image may seem impossible. Its not.

FORNIX (Arch) Vaulted Arch, something high that can be passed under. (Jim H.)

If this is all just a clever hoax, the person who devised it was absolutely brilliant.

View attachment 1190908


​

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hal, the jesuit society as an entity ceased in 1767, , but their coajutors continued, not all were rounded up, so it was business as usual, sides they had to worry about those deposits at, Tayopa and the Caballos.

The evidence of one in the Super's is weak but the heart seems to be one.

 

[starman 1]

The Latin Heart

Hello Hal,

You may want to consider that the two most important words on the Latin Heart are:

Transeo

Ecclesia

These two words may lead you to the gate that suggests an understanding of the Heart is not in its value as a treasure hunting artifact but in its value as History. A history that leads to a church for those who worship. One might call it a temple.

Good luck,

starman

 

[Hal Croves]

Hello Hal,

You may want to consider that the two most important words on the Latin Heart are:

Transeo

Ecclesia

These two words may lead you to the gate that suggests an understanding of the Heart is not in its value as a treasure hunting artifact but in its value as History. A history that leads to a church for those who worship. One might call it a temple.

Good luck,

starman

You may be correct.

Right now, I understand what (where) four of the words represent if this is correct. I can see where Transeo Ecclesia falls on the map but don't find anything to support the idea in an aerial photo but, I will certainly have a look on the ground soon. Not that I know what to look for.... hint, hint.

If Ryan is correct about the "ground map" and the stones being part of something much larger, it certainly lends credence to what you have already told us.

 

[markmar]

Hal

The area of your Latin heart's overlay is too large . The FORNIX is an arch ( under passable ) . You can see the Latin heart's arch and the " house of God's Sacred " in my picture .

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal

The area of your Latin heart's overlay is too large . The FORNIX is an arch ( under passable ) . You can see the Latin heart's arch and the " house of God Sacred " in my picture .

View attachment 1191191

Could be.
They way I am looking at the Latin Heart, so far four of it's words fall on top of or next to four logical landmarks that I am familiar with. This is only my opinion. Fornix is an Arch. Ojo de Aguila is the most obvious one in that area. I think. And when you use Ojo de Aguila as "the" arch, other things in the landscape seem to confirm it as being the correct one.

The picture you posted is heavily pixel-ed. I can see what appears to be the arch of a cave or overhang in shadow (lower right). I honestly cant be sure.

Still, the Latin Heart could be unrelated to the stone maps and a modern hoax as cactusjumper suggests.
And remember this... there are at least two visual examples of the Latin Heart that survive. They are almost identical but not exactly the same and, like the differences between the stone maps and the "Peralta" paper map, that creates a huge problem.

DESILIENS AQUA AURUM

CRATER

MEUS

SPECUS

CACUMEN

NOTO MEDULLA

FAUCES

TABULA

TRANSEO ECCLESIA

NOTO

DOMUS

FORNIX

INTER SEPTENTRIONES ET OCCASUM SOLIS

NOTO TRIANGULUM

MERIDIES CACUMEN

MONETA

CAVERNA AURUMBARATHRUM
​

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

I do think the Latin Heart is a hoax. As I have posted before, this picture is of a copy of the heart made by Jim Hatt. It was gifted to me by someone else.



Good luck,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Hal

One more time the arch picture

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I do think the Latin Heart is a hoax. As I have posted before, this picture is of a copy of the heart made by Jim Hatt. It was gifted to me by someone else.



Good luck,

Joe

cactusjumper,
Here is Jim's take on things. Which man do you suspect, Tom, Jim, Al, Bob, or Tom's friend in Texas?
You are suspicious but offer no explanation. That's not like you.

Could it be someone else?


"Out of frustration, I finally said to Al that I didn't need his copy because there was one in Bob Ward’s book. Al grinned and made a remark that suggested his copy was in some way different from the one in Ward’s book. For months I tried to locate someone else who had a copy of the heart other than the one in Ward’s book. Then one afternoon I received a phone call from Tom Kollenborn, a local well-known historian and author, who knew I was searching for a copy of the Latin Heart other than the one that was in Bob Ward’s book. During the conversation he announced that he had located a copy, which was in the possession of a friend, whom he did not name, but said was currently living in Texas. Within three days Tom presented me with the copies of the Latin Heart shown above."

Jim Hatt
The other bus station.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

cactusjumper,
Here is Jim's take on things. Which man do you suspect, Tom, Jim, Al, Bob, or Tom's friend in Texas?
You are suspicious but offer no explanation. That's not like you.

Could it be someone else?


"Out of frustration, I finally said to Al that I didn't need his copy because there was one in Bob Ward’s book. Al grinned and made a remark that suggested his copy was in some way different from the one in Ward’s book. For months I tried to locate someone else who had a copy of the heart other than the one in Ward’s book. Then one afternoon I received a phone call from Tom Kollenborn, a local well-known historian and author, who knew I was searching for a copy of the Latin Heart other than the one that was in Bob Ward’s book. During the conversation he announced that he had located a copy, which was in the possession of a friend, whom he did not name, but said was currently living in Texas. Within three days Tom presented me with the copies of the Latin Heart shown above."

Jim Hatt
The other bus station.

Hal Croves,

Interesting to read Jim's story. Al Reser liked to stay at my ranch outside New River and would bring his maps and drawings with him on occasion. Al told me once all drawings of the Latin Heart essentially came from one man who was a friend of Al's and lived in Apache Junction. This man was present at the finding of the Latin Heart. Several things were left off of certain drawings of the Latin Heart at this mans request. He only gave the full drawing to his trusted friends and asked they do the same. Al told me Jim had asked him for the complete copy but Al didn't trust Jim completely and decided to wait. In the meantime Jim went to his friend Tom and got a complete copy. Al said the copy Jim got was one Al had given to Tom earlier. At about this time the Heart drawing was passed around and became general knowledge.

Al's friend who gave him the Latin Heart drawing lived not far from Al in Apache Junction. He was a former wrangler for the Q and Butcher Hook ranches and a bit of a recluse. He is confused as being a part in almost every story of the Peralta Stone Maps, Latin Heart and Stone Crosses. Al also told me something I found very interesting. His friend used a couple different aliases, one of his alias was Billy Hidden. Al's friend and Billy Hidden were the same person.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal Croves,

Interesting to read Jim's story. Al Reser liked to stay at my ranch outside New River and would bring his maps and drawings with him on occasion. Al told me once all drawings of the Latin Heart essentially came from one man who was a friend of Al's and lived in Apache Junction. This man was present at the finding of the Latin Heart. Several things were left off of certain drawings of the Latin Heart at this mans request. He only gave the full drawing to his trusted friends and asked they do the same. Al told me Jim had asked him for the complete copy but Al didn't trust Jim completely and decided to wait. In the meantime Jim went to his friend Tom and got a complete copy. Al said the copy Jim got was one Al had given to Tom earlier. At about this time the Heart drawing was passed around and became general knowledge.

Al's friend who gave him the Latin Heart drawing lived not far from Al in Apache Junction. He was a former wrangler for the Q and Butcher Hook ranches and a bit of a recluse. He is confused as being a part in almost every story of the Peralta Stone Maps, Latin Heart and Stone Crosses. Al also told me something I found very interesting. His friend used a couple different aliases, one of his alias was Billy Hidden. Al's friend and Billy Hidden were the same person.

Matthew

Matthew,

Jim Hatt probably had more to say about Bill Hidden than just about anyone:

_________________________________________________

(Links removed, you can not link to other forums)

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Here is another from Jim H.:

I have been telling everyone that is interested in the Stone Maps for years that they are not using all the pieces, and that is why nobody has been able to solve them.

You need to spend some serious time with my article at: The Discovery of the Peralta Stones and the Trail to the Lost Dutchman Mine - DesertUSA

There are answers in that article, that a lot of people haven't even thought of the questions for yet! ( link removed by mod )

I told you in an email years ago, that the Latin Heart was found not far from where Tumlinson said he found the stone maps (near Florence Jct), and that that alone proves (to me) that the stone maps were not found buried in the floor of a church in Old Mexico, as some stories suggest.

Charlie Miller was close friends with Travis Tumlinson's brother, and helped him search the area around Florence Jct. for more pieces of the stone maps. Long after Tumlinson gave up. Charlie found the Latin Heart laying right on top of the ground. Persistence sometimes pays off!

I will email you a sound file I made of a man who worked with Bill Hidden. Bill was very interested in the Stone Maps, and the Latin Heart. He knew Charlie Miller, and knew exactly where the maps and heart were found.

I think you will enjoy listening to the file.

Jim
___________________________________

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Another from Jim:
_______________________________________

There are no photos of it that I know of SH.

Never know tho. One may surface someday. I am curious about why you specifically mention "brick clay" or pottery clay. Most people assume it was made of the same stone that the other heart was made of. (It wasn't)

I don't know what kind of rock it was, but Bill Hidden saw it and said it was a black rock. The story is that the man who found it, rolled it up in a piece of canvas and hit it repeatedly with a sledge hammer, and it pretty much turned to powder.

I WISH rock was that easy to crush to powder! It very well could have been made from some kind of clay. That would explain several things.

1 -Why, it was so easy to crush
2- How, who ever made it could get all that fine detail carved into it.
3 -The unusual color.

I have never seen any black rock in the Superstitions other than obsidian, and nobody would be able to do any carving in that without modern equipment. (Like maybe a laser) I can't imagine how they would work it down into a flat slab, and I have never seen a piece of obsidian as large as the Latin Heart was.

I never considered the idea, that it might have been made from clay. What started you thinking along those lines?

Jim
_______________________

There is, of course.......more.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

Black and Red are both liturgical colors in Catholic/Christian tradition.
White as well.
There may be some significance within that context.IMO

Regards:SH.

 

[deducer]

Hal Croves,

Interesting to read Jim's story. Al Reser liked to stay at my ranch outside New River and would bring his maps and drawings with him on occasion. Al told me once all drawings of the Latin Heart essentially came from one man who was a friend of Al's and lived in Apache Junction. This man was present at the finding of the Latin Heart. Several things were left off of certain drawings of the Latin Heart at this mans request. He only gave the full drawing to his trusted friends and asked they do the same. Al told me Jim had asked him for the complete copy but Al didn't trust Jim completely and decided to wait. In the meantime Jim went to his friend Tom and got a complete copy. Al said the copy Jim got was one Al had given to Tom earlier. At about this time the Heart drawing was passed around and became general knowledge.

Al's friend who gave him the Latin Heart drawing lived not far from Al in Apache Junction. He was a former wrangler for the Q and Butcher Hook ranches and a bit of a recluse. He is confused as being a part in almost every story of the Peralta Stone Maps, Latin Heart and Stone Crosses. Al also told me something I found very interesting. His friend used a couple different aliases, one of his alias was Billy Hidden. Al's friend and Billy Hidden were the same person.

Matthew

This is very interesting information. Do you have any more to add to this?

When you say "several things were left off the LH," did you mean additional words, or drawing? Could this be the reason behind the several rectangles on the drawing of the LH that we see today?

 

[sdcfia]

Question for Arizona aficionados/historians: does anyone know the origin of the name given to the Big Lue Mountains, east of Clifton near the New Mexico border? Thanks in advance for any information.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal Croves,

Interesting to read Jim's story. Al Reser liked to stay at my ranch outside New River and would bring his maps and drawings with him on occasion. Al told me once all drawings of the Latin Heart essentially came from one man who was a friend of Al's and lived in Apache Junction. This man was present at the finding of the Latin Heart. Several things were left off of certain drawings of the Latin Heart at this mans request. He only gave the full drawing to his trusted friends and asked they do the same. Al told me Jim had asked him for the complete copy but Al didn't trust Jim completely and decided to wait. In the meantime Jim went to his friend Tom and got a complete copy. Al said the copy Jim got was one Al had given to Tom earlier. At about this time the Heart drawing was passed around and became general knowledge.

Al's friend who gave him the Latin Heart drawing lived not far from Al in Apache Junction. He was a former wrangler for the Q and Butcher Hook ranches and a bit of a recluse. He is confused as being a part in almost every story of the Peralta Stone Maps, Latin Heart and Stone Crosses. Al also told me something I found very interesting. His friend used a couple different aliases, one of his alias was Billy Hidden. Al's friend and Billy Hidden were the same person.

Matthew

Matthew Roberts

I honestly don't know what to make of the Latin Heart this morning. It seems to fit but the people we are writing about are personally unknown to me and that is obviously a huge disadvantage. cactusjumper has expressed some very real concerns about the LH yet, Jim seemed to have considered it authentic and even related to the other stone maps.

So, the most anyone "looking-in" can do is to dig and try to remain neutral.

Here is what I know about Billy Hidden.

Hidden's first "legal" Joint Venture Partnership Agreement was signed on January 3, 1969 and included Dalton Meeks (24%), J.W. Mc Affee (24%), and Joe J. Reilly (26%). For "security" reasons, Hidden (26%) used the alias William J. Ryan. Their partnership was formed to "prospect and explore certain areas of the Superstition Mountains, in Pinal and Gila Counties in Arizona." Meeks and McAffee were to "furnish all reasonable expenses". Their partnership was legally dissolved seven days later (January 10, 1969) with no explanation given.

Hidden''s next legal partnership was signed on December 3, 1973 and included Bert Bocchini - Apache Junction, AZ (25%), William Hidden - Apache Junction, AZ (12.5%), Gorden Ripna - Grand Rapids, MI (12.5%), William Walker - Decatur, IL ( 12.5%), William Teed - ? (12.5%), Rick Antwerp - ? (12.5%), and Philip Rupp - ? (12.5%). Unnamed "others" were expected to join at a later date.

"That the reason for this partnership is to prospect and explore certain areas of the Superstition Mountains in Pinal and Maricopa Counties of Arizona."

It is not clear why Bocchini was to receive a greater percentage of the profit. Especially since Hidden, Ripna, and Walker were to "furnish any and all reasonable expenses and equipment and supplies or assistance pertaining to the venture…" The agreement makes no mention of any financial or "other" contributions by Bocchini. If their partnership was dissolved, it was not legally recorded. Bert Bocchini passed in January of 1978.

Hidden's next Limited Partnership agreement was made with Chad J. Stevens who owned Steven & Sons Roofing Co. (October 21, 1977). Their partnership was named "ESCONDEDO HOPE" with headquarters in Mesa. "The character of the business to be carried on is to engage in the business of mineral exploration."

Stevens appears to have had quite a few serious financial problems yet he contributes $1,500.00 cash to the venture only six moths after getting hit with a substantial IRS tax lein. For reasons unknown, their partnership dissolved by mutual consent on March 12, 1979.

From what I can tell, Hidden was apparently not under the same financial pressure as Stevens. His mortgage with Continental Bank, signed on January 28, 1975, was satisfied in full on May 23, 1980. No mining claims under William H.. Hidden or William J. Ryan were registered in Maricopa County.

Doyle Hanish on the other hand appears to have experience significant financial hardships which, are a matter of public record.

I am looking at Charlie Miller now and wondering if he was in some way connected to Miller's Garage. That Charlie Miller, the race car driver and garage owner was quite an impressive character. Any thoughts on Miller?

Bocchini's 26% of any realized profits fascinates me. What was his contribution?

 

[Hal Croves]

This is very interesting information. Do you have any more to add to this?

When you say "several things were left off the LH," did you mean additional words, or drawing? Could this be the reason behind the several rectangles on the drawing of the LH that we see today?

I would say that is correct. Just compare Joe's photo with my drawing of the LH in orange. Two very different images if you look close enough.

 

[Azquester]

Hal, Do you have the translation of the rest of this latin?

Also an Arch contains the Keystone.

Could be.
They way I am looking at the Latin Heart, so far four of it's words fall on top of or next to four logical landmarks that I am familiar with. This is only my opinion. Fornix is an Arch. Ojo de Aguila is the most obvious one in that area. I think. And when you use Ojo de Aguila as "the" arch, other things in the landscape seem to confirm it as being the correct one.

The picture you posted is heavily pixel-ed. I can see what appears to be the arch of a cave or overhang in shadow (lower right). I honestly cant be sure.

Still, the Latin Heart could be unrelated to the stone maps and a modern hoax as cactusjumper suggests.
And remember this... there are at least two visual examples of the Latin Heart that survive. They are almost identical but not exactly the same and, like the differences between the stone maps and the "Peralta" paper map, that creates a huge problem.

DESILIENS AQUA AURUM

CRATER

MEUS

SPECUS

CACUMEN

NOTO MEDULLA

FAUCES

TABULA

TRANSEO ECCLESIA

NOTO

DOMUS

FORNIX

INTER SEPTENTRIONES ET OCCASUM SOLIS

NOTO TRIANGULUM

MERIDIES CACUMEN

MONETA

CAVERNA AURUMBARATHRUM
​