2011 DUTCH HUNTERS RENDEZVOUS

[somehiker]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

"Here's a couple photos of the mountain lion I saw"

Paul:
Nice.Wish I'd been there.He/she doesn't appear to have much fear of humans...posing for pictures like that. Maybe the same cat,or the mate of the one responsible for the deer kill two night's earlier.That cat had been back when Tim and I checked the kill site on thursday.The stones were knocked down again and fresh tracks were on the dirt and grass.Was starting to smell pretty bad by Saturday when I passed nearby.We also saw tracks on our trip to the bat cave....big tracks.

Regards:Wayne

 

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[somehiker]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

omg wow
somehiker, you really found something big i fell it.
someone when to a whole lot of work to build that.
know telling what could be up there.
a old hideout?, ldm?, a old moutaion man home?
a old chuch?.
i would love to see whats up there.
why whould you go to all that work for?

natchitoches:
Well,it is big...the cave at least.Impressive enough in size alone,without speculating about treasure caves and other "what if's".
That might be a topic for another thread.
I showed some photos to Tom Kollenborn,who recognized it immediately.Jim Hatt had also been there at least once and I think that Clay was mentioned as well.Tom was unaware of any ladder.I had sent photos to Jim a couple of months ago,but he did not reply to my queries.He was quite ill,so I did not press the issue.

To my knowledge,no legend involves a "bat cave".Doesn't sound like anyone else knows anything more than what Joe and Tom have already mentioned.
I have no idea why someone would go to all the effort,and take such risks to collect any amount of guano.
No need,in fact,there being so much available on the slope below,as well as other caves with easier access.Perhaps someone who was involved will reply with more info on the profitability of guano collecting.
What is visible of the cave is directly above,a huge vertical crack, and the guano drops directly from the bats to the slope below.It must be quite a sight at dusk,to see so many bats departing.I wouldn't want to be standing below.....batsh-t monsoon
The welded steel section of ladder...2 1/2 x 2 1/2 x 1/4 angle iron x about 12' long with 2' lengths of 5/8 square bar every 18" for rungs....that Tim found part way down slope was unpainted and barely showing any rust,even where the sharp edges had been ground off.It would have weighed 150-200 pounds.And they hauled two of these sections up a 45-60 deg. slope about 1000' along a well worn diagonal trail.Not to mention getting them past the waterfalls and house sized boulders along the canyon bottom.This is assuming that the steel sections were brought in by latecomers,rather than those who built the original wood ladder.If the same group did it all,building and erecting everything,the task would have been monumental.
If anything more valuable than guano was found in the upper cave,it is likely long gone.The cave below the big opening has been prospected,and I also chipped some samples from the walls.I could see why the formation might be of interest to a prospector.My samples did not show any visible gold,though.


Regards:SH.

 

[natchitoches]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

great place to hid all your tailing.

 

[somehiker]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

great place to hid all your tailing.

Any tailings from the lower cave are probably buried under the guano out front.Nothing recent.
Very little guano in the lower cave...only in the pocket to the left of the photo...and no bats in there with us at the time.
An old fire pit at the entrance and some smoke stain on the ceiling.Couple of rusty tin cans,older style and near rusted through.
Looked for any "patched up" openings.No joy.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

Wayne,

I did not discuss your cave with Tom, but would be interested in hearing what he had to say.

Just going back to 1925, that's 86 years more worth of spill out of the cave. Things can change quite a bit in that length of time. Obie Stoker drove a car into the Superstitions, not to mention Barry Storm.

Who knows what could have been done back then.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

"Here's a couple photos of the mountain lion I saw"

Paul:
Nice.Wish I'd been there.He/she doesn't appear to have much fear of humans...posing for pictures like that. Maybe the same cat,or the mate of the one responsible for the deer kill two night's earlier.That cat had been back when Tim and I checked the kill site on thursday.The stones were knocked down again and fresh tracks were on the dirt and grass.Was starting to smell pretty bad by Saturday when I passed nearby.We also saw tracks on our trip to the bat cave....big tracks.

Regards:Wayne

I've had a few people ask me how big the cat was - I'm terrible at judging size, but it was clearly a full size adult and I thought it looked pretty big and actually seemed fairly well fed as it wasn't real skinny or anything. The only size estimation I can make is to say that if you've seen the 2 stuff mountain lions in the SMHS museum, the one I saw was definitely bigger than both of them.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

Paul,

I understand your consternation upon coming so close to that mountain lion with no means to protect yourself.

On the other hand, consider my sheer terror when I came upon this flock of carnivorous creatures, and I also had nothing more than my Cannon:

Now there is a site to put fear into the bravest heart.

Nice picture,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

You're lucky it was well fed and healthy. They usually won't come after humans unless you are near their young and the den, or they are starving and unable to hunt normally.

If it would have been after you, you most likely never would have known it until it was too late. There's one in the Sheephole Mountains near 29 Palms, Ca that I have come across a few times. She has never actively hunted me (that I know of), but she likes to stay behind the rocks. As long as you don't turn your back to them (and run), they will keep their distance.

Glad everything turned out okay.

Mike

 

[BenThereDoneThat]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

Here's the meanest creature I've ran into in awhile.....I swear it had fangs and claws when i took the picture as it was running at me....darn near chewed my shoe strings off ! my life flashed before my eyes......

 

[coazon de oro]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

There you have it Paul,

You'll have to start packing, or carry extra shoe strings from now on.

Nice pictures, your camera must have great shutter speed.

Wait till you hear those cats scream.

Homar

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

Tim,

I have run into those kind of bad boys before. One's not so bad.......

but once they get you down on the ground, the pack comes in for the kill. Here they are chewing the fingers off an unfortunate victim.......

Best to avoid the critters!

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

Wayne,

I did not discuss your cave with Tom, but would be interested in hearing what he had to say.

Just going back to 1925, that's 86 years more worth of spill out of the cave. Things can change quite a bit in that length of time. Obie Stoker drove a car into the Superstitions, not to mention Barry Storm.

Who knows what could have been done back then.

Take care,

Joe

Tom did not have much to say,other than stating he and others had been there and that there was no ladder present at that time.He was likely there some time ago.
He didn't mention the commercial mining history,but then again,we were interrupted by other members of the group,who wanted to look at the photos.

Exactly the point I was trying to make.Even 86 years worth of spill has left enough guano at ground level to supply a small scale operation with enough material to make access to the source unnecessarily dangerous IMO.
Many cars of Stoker's and Storm's era could be taken into rough terrain,tires being the weak link.Tires are about all you would have left,nowadays,were you to take a Chevy Cavalier down the present day Tortilla Ranch Road.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Springfield]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

You're lucky it was well fed and healthy. They usually won't come after humans unless you are near their young and the den, or they are starving and unable to hunt normally.

If it would have been after you, you most likely never would have known it until it was too late. There's one in the Sheephole Mountains near 29 Palms, Ca that I have come across a few times. She has never actively hunted me (that I know of), but she likes to stay behind the rocks. As long as you don't turn your back to them (and run), they will keep their distance.

Glad everything turned out okay.

Mike

They will stalk humans that display characteristics of an easy kill. Small, frail people (many women), people who show fear, autistics, children, etc. are vulnerable. I recovered the body of just such a target here in Pinos Altos three summers ago. A small, frail, mentally challenged middle-aged man was taken from his front porch, killed, and dragged into the brush about 100 feet from his front door. Our SAR team, mobilizing a search for the subject, found the cat guarding the body when we arrived at the house to begin the search. The victim was about half eaten.

The worst thing you can do is run or cower. The best thing you can do is carry protection, even if only used as a noise maker.

 

[gollum]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

ABSOLUTELY!

The first time I came across my big girl, I was metal detecting a dry creekbed in a narrow canyon in the Sheephole Mts. I saw a BIG print (bigger than my hand) in some crusty sand. About that time, I heard some rocks falling and saw her slinking between big rocks. I must have walked backwards for about two miles back to the truck. There are a bunch of old mines there, and I guess she must have made one a den.

Mike

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

My instincts told me not to run, so after taking a handful of photos which admittedly was probably not the smartest course of action to take (but hard to resist given the opportunity), I used my walking stick and backpack to appear as large as possible, wielded a (probably useless if needed) 6 inch pocketknife and made as much noise as I could.

He/she slunk away into the brush then away from me after giving me one of those low growls followed by a full open mouth snarl and I made my way back a couple miles as well back to the truck taking a path well around where it moved away. I couldn't tell you the number of times I turned a full circle watching for movement, and was quite happy to finally hit that portion of Coronado Mesa that appeared to have had a fire because there wasn't anything at all there that it could have hidden behind and followed me without me noticing.

It was definitely an experience I won't forget, and I fully realize I may have been in plenty of danger the way it acted. One way or another, I won't be hiking into the mountains there again without a firearm. I'll fly out of NH next year so I can claim a firearm in my baggage and bring along my .357. As others have said, if a lion really wanted to attack, odds are you wouldn't know anything about it until it happened, but at least with a sidearm there might be a chance for a shot or two.

I'm hoping seeing the mountain lion was a once in a lifetime experience

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

Paul,

Too bad you didn't get a picture of her with the wide open mouth view. Blown up, that would make for a great picture.

If the sidearm becomes a problem, let me know. I can loan you just about any handgun that you might need.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

Paul,

Too bad you didn't get a picture of her with the wide open mouth view. Blown up, that would make for a great picture.

If the sidearm becomes a problem, let me know. I can loan you just about any handgun that you might need.

Take care,

Joe

You know what's even worse Joe? I was using my wife's little digital camera (which is why the photos aren't as clear as I wished they would have been). I know I must have been excited and not thinking right when I took the photos because her camera has a video feature that I could have used which would have been AWESOME!!!

It would indeed have been neat to get a shot of it with a full open mouth, but by that time I had my camera put away and I was just trying to look big and a little more intimidating.

I've had a couple offers (and scoldings I might add too ) for not asking to borrow a firearm while I was out there this year. I had planned to bring mine, but at the last minute realized that I had no way to legally get my gun to Boston's airport as I don't have a MA permit. I would have ended up in BIG BIG trouble had I walked into Logan airport with a handgun!

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

Paul,

"BIG TROUBLE" may be a bit of an understate for the Commonwealth.

Current information can be found in this statement: Prospective travelers are urged to contact the Massachusetts Firearms Records Bureau at (617)660-4780 or the State Police at www.mass.gov/msp/firearms/ for further information.

Having said that, I would probably opt for not even taking the chance. There are other options available.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

Wayne,

Do you suppose the "spill" over the 86-years could have been due to the bats alone, and had nothing to do with the mining? From what I was told, I doubt it was mined much later than the 20-30s.

The ladders could have been modern-day treasure hunters who imagined Blackbeard's treasure was hidden in the cave. It's always possible he sailed up the Colorado River......
Once treasure hunters got that thought in their heads, it would not be that difficult to believe they might start removing guano to get to the good stuff.......

Good luck,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Re: 2011 DUTCH HUNTER'S RENDEZVOUS

Joe:
I suspect a shovel would have necessary for a thorough search of any cave area which had a floor.If some sort of "treasure" was anticipated,and depending on the distance and difficulty of removing the accumulated guano from floor or ledges,they may have added...some... to the amount below.The "fan" of guano,several feet deep in places,extends the full width of the main undercut,about 250-300 ft. wide,and at least 200' down the slope.The opening at the top is centered and only about thirty ft. wide.I don't see how anyone could toss shovels full of guano over one hundred feet to the sides of such a precarious perch.The surface of the entire fan was covered by guano which was still in pelletized form,which to me suggests recent deposition. From what we could see from below,the upper cave takes a form similar to that of the ceiling of an "A-framed" building....see the "maxed zoom,top of the ladder photo".The ladder continues upward an unknown distance though,and may very well end at a horizontal opening,undercut or ledge of some kind.At ground level there is a similar opening to the right....see the photo of Tim heading toward that open crack....and this photo by Tim of me going up to the same opening.About ten feed wide,this crack or fault continues upward to the crown of the undercut.It exhibited numerous ledges,some quite wide,and one such ledge can be seen in this photo.In addition to the ladder itself,scaffolding,or a "walkway" had been constructed,giving access to the left of the ladder just above where the ladder bends inward.
There have been discussions in the past,which may have motivated those who built the ladder.Three which come to mind are:

--A place in the mountains from which members of the San Carlos community periodically remove "treasure" (perhaps only guano ?) for the purpose of raising cash for major communal purchases.This place has,as my often poor memory recalls,been sometimes called the "treasure cave" and has been described as "near the river".Once again though..."One man's treasure is another man's guano"
--A treasure in a cave,offered in trade by an imprisoned Geronimo,in exchange for his freedom.
--A cache,supposedly left on/in Black Cross Butte,by Apache Jack.

The tales of gold bars found in caves elsewhere in the mountains by Brady and LaFrance also may have provided inspiration.

Regards:Wayne