17 Tons of gold in New Mexico

[Marmentman]

If your interested in the Druid gold, I started a thread called Druid gold in the San Juan's. that way this thread can stay 17 tons of gold.

 

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[Roadquest]

No real proof. Not real sure now, that the pictures I was shown were real.

 

[Roadquest]

2 4 22 48

 

[Marmentman]

That is a bummer, lots of hiding places out there. Too bad it's ute land.

 

[Beaudog]

Okay folks, how about some re-capping on this Leon Trabuco gold? I get tired of the petty snipping and B.S. on this thread. First off I am a native of New Mexico. I've heard most of the "stories" about lost and hidden gold and put very little stake in them but some fun can be had in researching and listening to stories. I have a working knowledge of aircraft and their capabilities. Places to secretly (unnoticed) land any kind of aircraft capable of carrying #1000 would be vary scarce in 1933 northern New Mexico. I'm sure a lot of people have done some math but here goes: 1000# of gold would be approx .83 cubic ft, not a big volume at all. Now for a few questions. 1. Does anybody have a lat/long for this "cabin?" 2. Has anybody seen the Shrine Rock with their own eyes? 3. Pictures of this rock? 4. Type of aircraft suspected to have flow all these tons of gold? 5. Where and how would Red Moiser have gotten fuel to Conger Mesa? 6. Why would the local helpers not have taken the gold after Red or anybody else left? 7. In 1933 what kind of truck might have been used to carry #1000 of anything over back roads any distance at all? Just a few of the questions that immediately pop into my mind. I'll try to check in here for replies but if you would like to converse directly try me at: majmistake@yahoo.com as I tend to check that almost daily. In the meantime happy searching to all.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Beaudog for starters there were many aircraft capable of that, for instance the old Stearman converted to agriculture work is quite capable and would not seeem to be out of place on improvised landing fields. I, myselt have landed one inside of 50 meters with a full load of insecticide which is close to 1000#. It can be done.

Incidentally, many trucks of the era coild carry that load, and they were designed for rough dirt roads, basically off road use..

 

[Beaudog]

Thank you for your reply. I'll give you that the Stearman is certainly capable of the load but it does have a rather limited range, 200 miles +/-. It is approx 400 miles +/- from Conger Mesa to the closest Mexican town. And it may not have had a landing strip secluded enough for such a multi-trip clandestine operation. Also a Ryan B-1 Brougham could do the job and it has almost 3 times the range of the Stearman. As to the truck/road question: 1. Any truck newer than say late 1920's in 1933 would certainly have been a high visibility vehicle in a poorer northern NM. 2. I own a model Ford TT (one ton truck) and yes it can navigate rougher roads. But I have to wonder about there being any roads on or around Conger Mesa in 1933. Can we address more specifically my questions? And can you pose any questions that come to your mind? Again, thanks for the reply and let's talk some more.

 

[sdcfia]

Why expose your cargo to such risk? If this event happened at all (I believe otherwise, BTW), why not just drive the gold across the border at any number of crossing locations where there would be no muss or fuss (especially if bribes were needed), then north to the final destination? Better yet, here's another question: why move the gold so far north into the USA, into such a difficult location, when so many other closer possibilities existed? For example, why not just drive the bullion across at El Paso and stash it there? There have always been easy smuggling opportunities in El Paso, especially if big money was involved. Later, when sale/movement of the bullion would be needed, you'd have easy air, rail and road options available. This entire story fails to hold up to scrutiny for me. I believe the whole thing is a cover story for something else - a coded message related to some other Four Corners activity, a diversion of some sort.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SDC. You forget that because of the Exec order, there was increased vigelance all along the Border. and the plan to convert was quite feasable until then..

And in those days the Border Patrol had enforcement jurisdiction in the entire US, and, had a better sense of Morals, not like today.

Under the circumstances, I too, would look for an uninhbited area in the US..

P.S. the flights would not be from a mexican pueblo, but most likely frrom a ranch, so long distance would not be involved.

 

[sdcfia]

SDC. You forget that because of the Exec order, there was increased vigelance all along the Border. and the plan to convert was quite feasable until then..

And in those days the Border Patrol had enforcement jurisdiction in the entire US, and, had a better sense of Morals, not like today.

Under the circumstances, I too, would look for an uninhbited area in the US..

P.S. the flights would not be from a mexican pueblo, but most likely frrom a ranch, so long distance would not be involved.

Anyone capable of possessing 17 tons of gold is well prepared to make problems go away, no matter whom he is dealing with. Human nature never changes. Anyway, the logistics options are mere speculation, IMO, because I don't think this event ever occurred.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening SDC, you stated thet you didn't believe that it could have happened -----Why not ?? It was both feaseable and logical. ?

 

[Oroblanco]

Okay folks, how about some re-capping on this Leon Trabuco gold? I get tired of the petty snipping and B.S. on this thread. First off I am a native of New Mexico. I've heard most of the "stories" about lost and hidden gold and put very little stake in them but some fun can be had in researching and listening to stories. I have a working knowledge of aircraft and their capabilities. Places to secretly (unnoticed) land any kind of aircraft capable of carrying #1000 would be vary scarce in 1933 northern New Mexico. I'm sure a lot of people have done some math but here goes: 1000# of gold would be approx .83 cubic ft, not a big volume at all. Now for a few questions. 1. Does anybody have a lat/long for this "cabin?" 2. Has anybody seen the Shrine Rock with their own eyes? 3. Pictures of this rock? 4. Type of aircraft suspected to have flow all these tons of gold? 5. Where and how would Red Moiser have gotten fuel to Conger Mesa? 6. Why would the local helpers not have taken the gold after Red or anybody else left? 7. In 1933 what kind of truck might have been used to carry #1000 of anything over back roads any distance at all? Just a few of the questions that immediately pop into my mind. I'll try to check in here for replies but if you would like to converse directly try me at: majmistake@yahoo.com as I tend to check that almost daily. In the meantime happy searching to all.

Well not to derail this, but in my opinion with any historical event, it is generally best to stick with the OLDEST sources available, on the grounds that you then have less opportunities for errors, flaws and deliberate falsehoods to get mixed in with facts.

As for instance with this legend - here everyone has been discussing it as 17 tons of gold, stashed in the Four Corners region - yet the older versions you can find of it, had it as 16 tons of gold. Did an extra ton of gold grow out of the pile? Or do we have exaggeration creeping into the legend?

It is easy to sit back at this distance in time and space, and dismiss the whole thing as unlikely or even impossible. However truth is very often stranger than fiction, and it is very much possible that some wealthy persons might decide to try to capitalize on the sudden US decision to lift the price of gold, which had been set at $20.67 per ounce for over a century, raising it to $30. That is nearly a 50% increase - who would not jump at the chance to turn your money into 50% more? Plus this would have every chance that the price would keep on rising, so why sell your gold in Mexico at the old set price when you could sneak it into the US and sell for a huge markup?

Just imagine their horror when the Fed decided to outlaw possession of it, removing all value of the gold that had been sneaked in at such effort and expense! But as to the mechanics of it, certainly there were aircraft capable of making the trips, and trucks as well. My own hunch would be a simple cattle truck, as the least likely to raise any suspicions by anyone - even the police rarely bother to stop them (back when they were more common) for generally there was either livestock or manure in the back. I doubt anyone would even look twice at cattle trucks running around in the back country, as the obvious explanation would be that some rancher is moving cattle around.

Also referring to number #6 - would bet that any "local helpers" (if there really were any) then they had NO idea what was being moved and or hidden. They might have asked, but it is not that difficult to get someone to lend a hand and not ask questions. Really though I would think it VERY unlikely to have involved ANYONE local, for the very reason that they could and probably would sneak in and steal it when you left.

Please do continue,

 

[Oroblanco]

PS getting back to the basics or 'roots' remembered there was an episode of Unsolved Mysteries on this:
http://unsolved.com/archives/leon-trabuco%E2%80%99s-

 

[gollum]

Beaudog and SDCFIA,

It happened without a doubt. I have a five inch thick ring binder of research for The 17 Tons Treasure. I have copies of all the research Cosgrove-Meurer did for the Unsolved Mysteries Episode on that. A friend hired a Private Investigator to look into it in the 1990s. I have all that he could find. I am the guy that gave y'all Red Mosher (and the picture). I also have about two inches of FOIA Documents regarding all the Treasury Dept and FBI reports filed. Funny how EVERY REPORT had as its final destination "CHIEF" (that was what they called J. Edna Hoover).




I will address some of what y'all ask, but this is an ongoing project, so some things I can't share.

Nobody knows for 100% certain exactly what type of plane was used. Mosher usually flew Stearmans. The one that ran the gold was supposed to have been stripped down and spare tanks added to increase the range.

They purpose built a runway on the back side of the ranch at Conger Mesa. Fueling is easy; Once the gold is unloaded from the plane, the truck picks up several barrels of fuel, and hand pumps to put the fuel in the plane.

The whole idea in bringing the gold to the US was because when Roosevelt enacted The Gold Confiscation Act in 1933, they raised the spot price to $33 an ounce. I believe in Mexico, spot was about $15-$20 an ounce. And at 17 tons, that $10-$15 an ounce difference was a lot. At the time (and I think it still is) illegal to bring gold out of Mexico (without reporting it).

The gold stayed at Conger Mesa until about 1951 (when the Feds came snooping around). My friends spoke with the caretaker of the ranch in 1986 just before he died. He didn't know where it was moved to. Clues were left in the area as to where the gold was moved to. They were gold bars. Each one engraved with parts of a map. They were wrapped in canvas and red oilcloth. The ones they have found were all under large boulders. Each one had the same thing that indicated to look in the area around it (sorry I can't say what that is because some more are still to be found).

After The Federal Grand Jury Hearing, several of the jury members moved to the Aztec Area to actively hunt the treasure.

Some time ago, I was told it was hidden in a spot on the Jicarilla Apache Res. Maybe, but a funny thing; In the spot where I was told it was, is a perfectly straight line North to the ranch on Conger Mesa. Quien Sabe.

I have also found about a million Trabuco's in the Los Angeles Area. You know, just like Mexico............only more Mexicans! HAHAHA

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Of course, Executive Order 6102 was the one passed by FDR April 5, 1933 requiring all gold owned within the USA (coins, bullion, certificates) to be surrendered to the Federal Reserve (a private bank) in exchange for $20.67 in "faith" paper money for each ounce surrendered. Gold and silver were money then, all legal tender was either precious metal or a metal-redeemable certificate. The public had until May 1, 1933 to redeem their life savings for non-redeemable paper money, or go to jail. Something like 600 million ounces were turned in (confiscated). EO 6102 set the stage for a massive screwing of the already Depression-weary US public. On January 30, 1934, FDR passed the Gold Reserve Act, which transferred the gold recovered the year before from the Federal Reserve to the US Treasury. The gold was then moved to Fort Knox. Also, the Act made future possession of gold bullion (with a few exceptions) a Federal crime. More importantly, on January 30th, the government devalued the dollar by 60%, setting the new price of gold at $35/ounce, effectively bailing out the banking system and prolonging the Depression until World War II. Sound familiar?

If the 17 ton story would be true, it would mean these Mexican idiots moved their gold into the USA during the summer of 1933 (according to the story's details), after the passing of EO 6102, thus putting their bullion in immediate jeopardy of confiscation. Why do this? If Trabuco et al were anticipating a devaluation in the US dollar (something the US population seemed to be totally unaware of), why not wait until the devaluation actually occurred, and keep their gold safe in Mexico until then? Of course, six months later, the Gold Act did set the new price of gold at $35, but also made possession of gold in the USA (except for a few special cases) a federal offense.

Bottom line: for this story to be true, we have to accept that these Mexicans put 17 tons of gold bullion in immediate jeopardy in the United States when there was no reason to do so. And that, if they were to survive this faux pas, they gambled that the bullion's value would increase later, and that they would legally be able to sell it and profit from the whole scheme.

What would you do? Me, in the Spring of 1933, I would notice that EO 6102 made it illegal to hoard gold within the USA, and would certainly not move my stash there, but would keep the gold in Mexico where it was safe for the time being. Then, if and when the time came for the hoped-for increase in the price of gold - which happened January 1934 - I would then work out a scheme to sell it in the US. But wait! I would certainly read the entire Gold Act legislation and realize that ownership would still be illegal, and direct sale would be impossible. Then I would huddle up with my pals and try to figure out a Plan B, with the 17 tons still safe in Mexico. I'm not even a smart guy, but that's what I'd do. Do you really think that guys smart enough to own 17 tons of gold would squander it in the reckless manner that the story tells it?

 

[Oroblanco]

<snip>
Do you really think that guys smart enough to own 17 tons of gold would squander it in the reckless manner that the story tells it?

Steve you are trying to use YOUR modern, well informed reasoning (and well after the events) to try to understand THEIR 1930s Mexican reasoning. Not trying to say that Mexicans are dullards, far from it, but one other aspect you seem to be doing is to assume that since these fellows had an accumulation of wealth, then ipso-facto they must be genuises. Wealth does NOT equate to smarts. Otherwise Paris Hilton would be a brainiac. You do not have to be a genius to be wealthy, and a fair percentage of the wealthy simply inherited their wealth. This was especially true in Mexico, with its huge estates and haciendas, land grants from the King or Mexican government to favorites and toadies. No genius requirement involved.

Next - just how informed do you assume these Mexican grandees were, to know all about the details of brand new US laws? How well are YOU informed on Mexican mining laws today, to give a counter- example? I try to keep up on it and certainly do not know all the details, especially new things recently brought into effect. They did not have the internet and computers to simply pull up any and all information they desired, plus there was a language barrier involved. I see nothing illogical at all about the original story. YOU might go to the trouble to find out for a certainty what the new US gold laws were, but that does not mean they would. Plus they may have feared that should they start asking too many questions, it could very easily attract the kind of attention they did not desire, as the treasure eventually did - hence the notation about all docs to be forwarded to the 'chief' Hoover. If they resided in Mexico, as there is no reason to suppose otherwise, and got word of the changes going on in the US, but not all the details, this is a very plausible scenario for how and why it came to happen.

People have made such blunders today, in the 'age of information' so for it to happen in the 1930s is even more probable. I know a fellow that invested heavily in a South American telephone company, thinking there was little risk, only to find that company went bankrupt and all of his investment went into thin air - and there was absolutely nothing he could do about it. Foreign investment ventures always carry a bigger risk, even when the foreign country is the USA for you.

A lot of BS has been getting tacked onto this story, so caution is a good thing. However at the root is not where the problems are.

Please do continue, sorry for going off on a tangent there.

 

[gollum]

SDCFIA,

To understand why they did what they did, when they did it, you have to go a little in depth into Mexican History;

President of Mexico from 1924-1928 was a man named Plutarco Calles. He was a Communist Revolutionary. He began a two year war (1926-1928) against the Catholics. He founded the Partido Nacional Revolucionario (National Revolutionary Party). He began a large redistribution of lands to peasants. After he left office in 1928, he stayed the power behind the presidents. He hand picked a man named Lazaro Cardenas that he had personally mentored to be Governor of Michoacan from 1928 - 1932. Calle hand picked only like minded communistic people like himself for public office. When Cardenas left the office of Governor of Michoacan in 1932, he was again picked to become President. As president he nationalized the oil industry (1938), redistributed land and wealth to the peasants of Mexico.

All you have to do is google "Plutarco Elias Calles" and "Lazaro Cardenas". You will get a good idea of the direction Mexico was heading in the 1920s and 1930s. The mine owners were likely very afraid of The Mining Industry being nationalized and losing everything they owned. Is it REALLY any wonder that they would take all the gold they could, sell it to the US, and leave Mexico's Unfriendly to Private Business Climate.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

<cut>
Next - just how informed do you assume these Mexican grandees were, to know all about the details of brand new US laws? How well are YOU informed on Mexican mining laws today, to give a counter- example? I try to keep up on it and certainly do not know all the details, especially new things recently brought into effect.
<cut>

Oro, you're trying to rationalize these irrational decisions by assuming that these guys were just uninformed, greedy, and somehow quaintly naive rubes living in some sort of vacuum. The fact that the laws were brand new is no excuse, as EO 6102 (extremely widely-distributed) shows everything you need to know on one page (see below). However privileged these guys were, and however they came to possess such a hoard in the 1930s, the fact is that they owned it (well, if the story is true at all, that is) and apparently were intelligent enough to be able to keep ownership up until the alleged events.

I know nothing about today's Mexican mining laws, but I assure you that if I were to become involved, I would know - especially the downside risks. Who wouldn't? Human nature is a constant. I see no reason that these folks would be so careless. If that was their nature, it's hard to see how they would have maintained possession of that much gold in the first place.

 

[sdcfia]

SDCFIA,

To understand why they did what they did, when they did it, you have to go a little in depth into Mexican History;

President of Mexico from 1924-1928 was a man named Plutarco Calles. He was a Communist Revolutionary. He began a two year war (1926-1928) against the Catholics. He founded the Partido Nacional Revolucionario (National Revolutionary Party). He began a large redistribution of lands to peasants. After he left office in 1928, he stayed the power behind the presidents. He hand picked a man named Lazaro Cardenas that he had personally mentored to be Governor of Michoacan from 1928 - 1932. Calle hand picked only like minded communistic people like himself for public office. When Cardenas left the office of Governor of Michoacan in 1932, he was again picked to become President. As president he nationalized the oil industry (1938), redistributed land and wealth to the peasants of Mexico.

All you have to do is google "Plutarco Elias Calles" and "Lazaro Cardenas". You will get a good idea of the direction Mexico was heading in the 1920s and 1930s. The mine owners were likely very afraid of The Mining Industry being nationalized and losing everything they owned. Is it REALLY any wonder that they would take all the gold they could, sell it to the US, and leave Mexico's Unfriendly to Private Business Climate.

Mike

That's interesting, Mike, and provides a back story about the political climate in Mexico at the time. Of course, the political climate in Mexico has always been dicey, and still is, so it's not like things were ever calm and secure beforehand or since. The relevance of this, vis-a-vis the 17 ton allegations, are speculative and ostensibly irrelevant to the story, as Trabuco & Co would certainly not be moving the bullion north for safe-keeping, but instead trying to anticipate a devaluation of the US dollar, and a subsequent sale of the gold at higher dollar values. It would have been a greed thing, which makes much more sense.

However, the logistics as reported in the 17 ton story just do not wash at all, and strains believability beyond the breaking point, IMO. You may wish to swallow it, but for me, it's a cooked-up story to cover some other sort of gold-related shenanigans, possibly in Four Corners, that we're totally in the dark about. Or, another possibility: the whole story could be a red herring - pointing to Four Corners to cover action elsewhere, such as El Paso. I think you're probably on the right track being interested in the legend, but I think you're being led astray - which is likely why the story was cooked up in the first place. Lots of gold bullion legends surfaced in the US during this time period. None of them have led to verifiable recoveries. This is another one.

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro, you're trying to rationalize these irrational decisions by assuming that these guys were just uninformed, greedy, and somehow quaintly naive rubes living in some sort of vacuum. The fact that the laws were brand new is no excuse, as EO 6102 (extremely widely-distributed) shows everything you need to know on one page (see below). However privileged these guys were, and however they came to possess such a hoard in the 1930s, the fact is that they owned it (well, if the story is true at all, that is) and apparently were intelligent enough to be able to keep ownership up until the alleged events.

I know nothing about today's Mexican mining laws, but I assure you that if I were to become involved, I would know - especially the downside risks. Who wouldn't? Human nature is a constant. I see no reason that these folks would be so careless. If that was their nature, it's hard to see how they would have maintained possession of that much gold in the first place.

View attachment 1251718

NO, actually you are quite mistaken there. I was merely pointing out that the ORIGINAL STORY (underline that) does not strike me as unbelievable whatsoever. I have seen people do similar (though not quite on that level) moves thinking they were going to make huge profits in another country, and get burned badly.

You are pre-supposing that they MUST have known the details of the law, when the original story has no such information. How many places do you suppose that executive order was really published in Mexico after all? It is also quite likely that they had heard of much smaller amounts of gold having been brought in and sold at a profit, when the price was raised. People will do that - they know someone that did something a little sketchy and made a profit, so they will try it too in a big way. It has happened very close by to you I would bet, since Colorado legalized pot, people from adjoining states have driven to CO to buy some and thought they could sneak it back home and sell for a profit only to get burned for their efforts.

Greed is a strong motivator, and can lead to taking risks you would never take if you were thinking clearly.

What activities (or activity singular) do you propose this 16/17 tons of gold was intended to be a cover for? Thank you in advance.

Oroblanco