JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[gollum]

Spring,

I would think that since the Jesuits were the ones teaching the mining arts in many of their Colegios in Europe, that they would have known the most modern and best methods of refinement in their time. So, if the gold were refined in Columbia to 20-22 karats, then it only stands to reason that the Jesuits (mostly the German Jesuits) had the knowledge to refine gold to the same fineness no matter where they were. Basically, NO GOLD from the New World has been found (to my knowledge) that is in excess of 22 karats in purity. I may be wrong though.

You also can't just out of hand dismiss the 1028 silver bars found only a few miles from the location of the found gold bars. Both caches shared the Jesuit Cross and "V". Do you REALLY think it was a coincidence that an enormous cache of ONLY silver bars were found so close to a large cache of ONLY gold bars? In all of the New World, two large caches of precious metal bars with Jesuit Attributions would be ACCIDENTALLY buried so close together? Not likely! And since the silver bars bore the name of Father Javier Saeta, the date of his death (1695), ALONG WITH the Jesuit Cross and "V", there is no doubt that the markings bound both caches to the Jesuit Order. This also places the probable date of their burial to sometime not long after 1695.

As far as what is POSSIBLE, to be intellectually honest, I must admit the possibility you state. There are also many other possibilities. There are many people who claim the idea of Jesuit Wealth is BS, and therefore NEITHER of the caches COULD be of Jesuit Origin. Since I believe that some of us have made a very conclusive (although mostly circumstantial) case for the Jesuit Order being both Miners and very wealthy, I absolutely believe that both caches were MOST LIKELY buried by Jesuits or Jesuit Connected Coadjutors, that also had been stationed in the Yucatan.

It is also possible (though not probable) that aliens wanted to disguise evidence of their mining. Since aliens are of the Devil, they wanted to implicate their greatest rivals for the souls of mankind......................The Jesuits! So, they make bars with secret Jesuit Symbolism (since they could see into the Jesuits' Secret Book by the use of the Hyperbolic Interdimensional Communications Devices ...... and telepathy), they knew it all! ;-)

Mike

 

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[sailaway]

Marius can you even speak or read Spanish?
The photo you claim to be the virgin monument says by the title that it is a boy!(in Spanish no less)
The rock coiled snake is a common Native American sign that can be seen at many sites of early hieroglyphs throughout the southwest. These predate the Spanish.

Non-solstice Lines, the Grand Chakra System, and the Hopi Winter Solstice Ceremony

Why is the template of Orion placed upon the earth at the specific angle relative to longitude that we find it?
The “chakra” line mentioned above, which runs in part from Shungopovi/Alnilam (the Belt of Orion) to Walnut Canyon/Meissa (the head of Orion) is 231 degrees azimuth in relation to Shungopovi.
The azimuthal direction of southwest is 225 degrees.
Thus, the axis for the terrestrial Orion is within six degrees of northeast/southwest. If we stood at Shungopovi shortly after midnight nine centuries ago on the winter solstice and looked southwest, we would find the middle star of Orion’s Belt hovering directly above the southwest horizon at an altitude of about 38 degrees. Specifically, at 1:15 a.m. on December 22, A.D. 1100, Alnilam is at 231 degrees azimuth.17.
In other words, gazing from the central star of the earthbound belt of Orion toward its head located in the foothills of the San Francisco Peaks where the katsinam live, we would see the celestial constellation precisely mirror the angle of the terrestrial configuration.
One might also question the significance of this precise time when the middle star in Orion’s Belt is at 231 degrees. At the very moment we are watching this sidereal spectacle, “one of the most sacred ceremonies” 18. of the Hopi known as the Soyal is taking place in the subterranean chamber called a kiva. Just past its meridian Orion can be clearly seen through the hatchway.
This is the time “when Hotomkam [Orion’s Belt] begins to hang down in the sky.” Now a powerful, barefooted figure descends the kiva ladder.
He is painted with white dots which resemble stars on his arms, legs, chest, and back. He carries a crook on which is tied an ear of black corn, Masau’u’s corn signifying the Above. One account identifies him as Muy’ingwa, the deity of germination related to the aforementioned Masau’u.. Another calls him “Star man,” ostensibly because of his headdress made of four white corn leaves representing a four-pointed star, perhaps Aldebaran in the Hyades.
Egyptian Parallels to the Arizona Orion and the Star Correlation Theory an ancient “unified ground plan” in which the pyramids at Giza form the pattern of Orion's Belt.
The Orion Zone: Ancient Star Cities of the American Southwest - 2

What you have in the hieroglyph is an old "Road Sign" for "Star Gazers" and travelers that predates the Spanish by thousands of years.

P.S. Has anyone noticed that the Mayan numbers and language was in print in 1571 by Alonso de Molina?
TNET Post #2459

 

[Springfield]

... You also can't just out of hand dismiss the 1028 silver bars found only a few miles from the location of the found gold bars. Both caches shared the Jesuit Cross and "V". Do you REALLY think it was a coincidence that an enormous cache of ONLY silver bars were found so close to a large cache of ONLY gold bars? In all of the New World, two large caches of precious metal bars with Jesuit Attributions would be ACCIDENTALLY buried so close together? Not likely! And since the silver bars bore the name of Father Javier Saeta, the date of his death (1695), ALONG WITH the Jesuit Cross and "V", there is no doubt that the markings bound both caches to the Jesuit Order. This also places the probable date of their burial to sometime not long after 1695.

As far as what is POSSIBLE, to be intellectually honest, I must admit the possibility you state. There are also many other possibilities. There are many people who claim the idea of Jesuit Wealth is BS, and therefore NEITHER of the caches COULD be of Jesuit Origin. Since I believe that some of us have made a very conclusive (although mostly circumstantial) case for the Jesuit Order being both Miners and very wealthy, I absolutely believe that both caches were MOST LIKELY buried by Jesuits or Jesuit Connected Coadjutors, that also had been stationed in the Yucatan...

I have seen a photo allegedly taken of one of these bars. Do you have any verification that there were 1028 of them? Odd there's not a picture of the hoard. I don't consider Kenworthy a bedrock witness. No, I don't consider the proximity of the 82 bar cache and the alleged 1028 bar cache a coincidence. I don't believe in coincidences.

I don't at all consider the idea of Jesuit wealth BS. I do question the rumors of Arizona mining and associated caches to be greatly exaggerated. I'll change my opinion on this if I see better evidence.

 

[gollum]

Yeah,

When things get slow, I notice we start arguing over minutiae that REALLY don't impact the subject in any major way. On a basic level, I say that we are in agreement. Our only differences are in degrees.

As far as Kenworthy goes. I will say that when it comes to this subject, he is about as bedrock as you can get. A good friend of mine once told me that when it came to the subject of treasure hunting, he only put faith in two peoples' opinions; mine and Chuck Kenworthy's. That was because of all the people he had come across in this "hobby", we were the only two people that had ever REALLY found anything.

When it comes to character witnesses for Chuck Kenworthy, I will let the words of Dr Lambert Dolphin (Chief Physicist at SRI Stanford Research Institute for 35 years, and known worldwide as the Father of modern Ground Penetrating Radar) speak for me:

Chapter Five of the True Story of the C&RPL

Lambert was good friends with Chuck Kenworthy for 30 years. He knew him better than anyone else I know. He also went into the field with Kenworthy more than anyone else I know. Lambert did geophone and GPR Surveys at Victorio Peak, NM which proved the Air Force was full of BS when they said there were no caves under VP. Lambert took his scientific equipment to the Philippines to help look for Yama$hita's Treasures.

While CK may have had some personal quirks, don't we all? I have seen people try and denigrate him by saying he used magic marker on the pictures in his books. I am here to tell you that is BS. I have a lot of his research materials from a few locations. I have also found many of the monuments he found and included in his books. EVERY one I have found is EXACTLY the same as the pictures in his books.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Sailaway wrote

P.S. Has anyone noticed that the Mayan numbers and language was in print in 1571 by Alonso de Molina?

No, I did not catch that - very interesting!

Springfield wrote

You keep asking me why I'm not joining the club. I might ask you, Mike and Roy - why are you so frenetic to prove this Jesuit thing? What's the benefit?

Speaking only for myself, it is not that I am SO concerned about convincing you or Cactusjumper, it was the title subject of the thread; this has long been an (indirect) accusation of lying against myself and all other treasure writers whom have written about the topic of Jesuit treasures (and mines) and I wished to present a case that argues against this accusation. The stories of Jesuit treasures (and mines) did not originate from the fevered minds of treasure writers, there is a wealth of circumstantial evidence, even a few remarkable finds. For people like you and Cactusjumper, whom keep an open mind to possibilities, it is then worth the time and effort to try to sway your (and Joe's, and other members and non members whom read our debate here) opinions. For the folks whom will not even look at and consider the evidence, it is a complete waste of time to post anything for their benefit. In the real world, this topic is literally a tempest in a teacup, most people are unaware there is any controversy whatsoever concerning Jesuits, mines and treasures, or slaves for that matter.

Please do continue amigos,

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS for the record here, I neglected to add that there are silver mines in Arizona which were once "legends" attributed to the Jesuits, which you can visit and literally stand in, and also there are mines associated with the Franciscan padres, like the Mojave mine as an example, which likewise you can stand in, or simply view from the highway west of Quartzsite.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

P.S. Has anyone noticed that the Mayan numbers and language was in print in 1571 by Alonso de Molina?

LOL, those other guys must have felt foolish trying to recreate it

 

[deducer]

Comment: I don't refuse, deducer, but you will simply have to produce more than 'what if' logic to support your arguments. That's the problem with the Arizona Jesuit argument in general. Predisposition, similar activities elsewhere, etc - establishing the habits of dogs - doesn't prove that this dog bit. Show us some proof - a dog bite - and we'll be more willing to jump in the boat. If I cared enough to spend the time, I'd dig out my old logic book and list the fallacious arguments used in this thread to 'prove' these Jesuit rumors. I was trained as an engineer - thank god our bridges weren't designed with this approach. Well, maybe some that fell down were.

You keep asking me why I'm not joining the club. I might ask you, Mike and Roy - why are you so frenetic to prove this Jesuit thing? What's the benefit?

Yes, by all means, do pull out your old logic book and show me what in it allows you to question Ron's integrity, or to assume you know better than Sonoita Bob.

Also please show me what in it demonstrates that you can call the fact that I just proved that there was a strong connection between the Jesuits and Mayans, using no less than three separate sources, a 'fallacious argument.'

One also would ponder the question of whether the likes of Mel Fisher, Howard Carter, Eric Lawes, or Barry Clifford had a copy of the 'logic book' in their back pocket when they made their finds, the values of which, reached into the millions and millions.

And speaking of logical fallacities, you keep using the term 'Arizona Jesuit' when there is no such thing.

 

[Springfield]

Yeah,

When things get slow, I notice we start arguing over minutiae that REALLY don't impact the subject in any major way. On a basic level, I say that we are in agreement. Our only differences are in degrees. ...

That's what I've said all along. Don't forget, though, "The devil's in the details."

 

[Springfield]

P.S. Has anyone noticed that the Mayan numbers and language was in print in 1571 by Alonso de Molina?

I could be wrong, but I believe Molina's document was about the Aztec language, not the Mayan.

 

[Springfield]

Yes ... yada yada yada ... thing.

Can't stand it, can you? You and your ad hominem attitude are on 'ignore' now.

 

[sailaway]

Springfield wrote:
I could be wrong, but I believe Molina's document was about the Aztec language, not the Mayan.

Maya codices are from the pre-Columbian Maya civilization, written in Maya hieroglyphic script generally known as the Nahuatl people and language.

Grammaire de la langue nahuatl ou mexicaine
by André de Olmos (1547)
handwritten

Confessionario breve, en lengua mexicana y castellana
by Alonso de Molina (1565)
was the first book published 1571 as a dictionary for the newly arrived Spanish and was based on the written version 20 years prior by André de Olmos and verified and expounded by a Nahuatl fluent speaker/writer Molina. All Priest coming to New Spain had this book.

Olmos and Molina both were professors/Priest in the Catholic College in Mexico City.
http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?ti...onso_de_Molina

 

[deducer]

Can't stand it, can you? You and your ad hominem attitude are on 'ignore' now.

Not a problem.

Don't dish it out if you can't take it. Simple as that.

 

[: Michael-Robert.]

So I have a 2 questions: What is the largest or most famous known lost treasure of the Jesuits? And, which treasure is still being looked for?

 

[sailaway]

The Man Who Arrested The Jesuits

Juan Bautista de Anza II

He was the youngest son of Captain Juan Bautista de Anza and Maria Rosa Bezerra Nieto of Fronteras, Sonora, Mexico. He was the grandson of Antonio de Anza, a pharmacist, and Lucia de Sassoeta of Hernani, Guipuzcoa, Spain. He was also the grandson of Captain Antonio Bezerra Nieto and Gregoria Gómez de Silva of Janos, Chihuahua, Mexico. He was born in July of 1736, possibly at Fronteras but more likely at Cuquiarachi, Sonora, Mexico. His father, Juan Bautista de Anza, senior, was killed by Apaches on May 9, 1740, when he was not quite three years of age.
He joined Spanish militia in December 1751 at San Ignacio, Sonora, Mexico during the Pima uprising, and became a "cadete" in the presidial cavalry in 1754 under the tutelage of his brother-in-law, Gabriel de Vildósola, at Fronteras, Sonora, Mexico. He advanced to cavalry lieutenant at Fronteras in 1756. He was made captain of the Tubac, Sonora, Mexico (now Arizona) Presidio in December 1759.
Juan Bautista de Anza married Ana María Pérez Serrano on June 24, 1761 at Arizpe, Sonora.
He became known for his abilities as a soldier fighting Apaches in the north (today Arizona) and Seris in the south (near present-day Hermosillo, Sonora) 1766-1773. On July 23, 1767 he was ordered to arrest Jesuits on the Sonora River, a commission that he carried out successfully but under great duress. In 1772 he requested permission from the viceroy to discover a route to Alta California, something his father had done in 1737 but was killed by Apaches before he could make the journey.
http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/juan-bautista-de-anza-ii.htm

Notice who published this version of the Mayan Dictionary:
Confessionario en lengua mexicana y castellana, con muchas aduertencias muy necessarias para los confessores by Juan Bautista [(1599)

 

[sailaway]

So I have a 2 questions: What is the largest or most famous known lost treasure of the Jesuits? And, which treasure is still being looked for?

The Mines of the Molina document state a large treasure.

The Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe Mine:
Two rock outcroppings were knocked down over the mine with the placement of gunpowder in the cracks, In front of the rock is a small monument. Inside the mine is a room with 2650 loads of sealed silver and 905 of gold, and there are 40 million in (unsealed)
silver.

The La Purísima Concepción Mine:
This mine is sealed by a copper door that has some enormous handles. They covered it in 1658 as recorded in the book of works of the mission. The ore is yellow and is half silver and a fifth part gold. They found chunks of pure silver weighing from one pound to 125 pounds.

 

[gollum]

Maya codices are from the pre-Columbian Maya civilization, written in Maya hieroglyphic script generally known as the Nahuatl people and language.

Grammaire de la langue nahuatl ou mexicaine
by André de Olmos (1547)
handwritten

Confessionario breve, en lengua mexicana y castellana
by Alonso de Molina (1565)
was the first book published 1571 as a dictionary for the newly arrived Spanish and was based on the written version 20 years prior by André de Olmos and verified and expounded by a Nahuatl fluent speaker/writer Molina. All Priest coming to New Spain had this book.

Olmos and Molina both were professors/Priest in the Catholic College in Mexico City.
Original Catholic Encyclopedia - Home of the largest Catholic Encyclopedia resource on the web

Sail,

Springfield is correct. Nahuatl is the Aztec Language. The Maya never spoke Nahuatl.

Mike

 

[sailaway]

gollum states:
Springfield is correct. Nahuatl is the Aztec Language. The Maya never spoke Nahuatl.

The Nahuatl Indian Language of Central Mexico used by Mayans
www.nativeweb.org/pages/pyramids/nahuatl.html

Mike never is a strong word, would you be willing to stake your life on it?

It is Aztec but used by the Mayans and all other Indians of Central America even to Prima Alta and above. The Classic Maya spoke two or three Mayan languages, while Mayan includes Zoquean and Totonacan, the dominant role was played by Uto-Aztecan, particularly by speakers of the Nahua groups of which was Náhuatl. Náhuatl is related to 13 languages spoken by the Hopi, Comanche, Pima, Shoshone, and other native people of North America.
http://mayajourney.com/the-nahuatl-language/

At the time of the Spanish conquest, the K'iche' (Mayan) nobility spoke Nahuatl as well as the K'iche' language
http://schools-wikipedia.org/wp/n/Nahuatl_language.htm

Please do not mix up the prehistoric times with the period we are concerned with.
During Conquest the Mayan spoke Nahuatl?, that according to wikipedia.
I was not there so can only go by what I read.

 

[markmar]

sailaway

I shuddered with your description of the Orion constelation in Arizona . Now about the Spanish language , I know little , but I know very well to read a map which is written in Spanish . I have wrote the words like in the Molina description of the map . If you want to change the text , no problem .
And who says how the jesuits didn't used ancient " road signs " . If you look better to the map , you will see this sign somewhere between San Ramon water and the Virgin mine . And who says how the Jesuits were only Spanish ? Because they spoke Spanish ? I am sure they spoke two or three languages .They could very well to use an old sign to make a clue to their mine . The matter is not what represent the sign , but for what and by whom are used . And the Molina map give this answer .

 

[sailaway]

sailaway

I shuddered with your description of the Orion constelation in Arizona . Now about the Spanish language , I know little , but I know very well to read a map which is written in Spanish . I have wrote the words like in the Molina description of the map . If you want to change the text , no problem .
And who says how the jesuits didn't used ancient " road signs " . If you look better to the map , you will see this sign somewhere between San Ramon water and the Virgin mine . And who says how the Jesuits were only Spanish ? Because they speak Spanish ? I am sure they spoke two or three languages .They could very well to use an old sign to make a clue to their mine . The matter is not what represent the sign , but for what and by whom are used . And the Molina map give this answer .

This is the Hieroglyphic, however this copy is wrong. it should be C70 overTD.
Personally I find your post insulting as you are basically saying my find (see Survey of the Mina Virgon in member hunts here on TNET) is not the site, yet without even saying why it is not. You can believe what you want. Till you can tell me why the "Mina Virgon site" is not what it is, then your post is moot. Notice the spelling is Portuguese, the home of the Jesuits.
As far as that goes Texas says that it is in the Big Bend State Park. You posted a picture of a site. Look up the Valley of hearts ( Corazones ) and you will see your Sombrero just south of the valley of hearts. In fact its called Sombrero Peak.
http://travelingluck.com/North America/United States/Texas/_5519384_Corazones Peaks.html
http://www.topoquest.com/map-detail.php?usgs_cell_id=42048
http://www.topoquest.com/place-detail.php?id=1377835