JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[cactusjumper]

Sail,

Springfield is correct. Nahuatl is the Aztec Language. The Maya never spoke Nahuatl.

Mike

Mike,

"Never" is a pretty strong statement, but in this case, IMHO, you are completely correct.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[gollum]

The Nahuatl Indian Language of Central Mexico used by Mayans
www.nativeweb.org/pages/pyramids/nahuatl.html

Mike never is a strong word, would you be willing to stake your life on it?

It is Aztec but used by the Mayans and all other Indians of Central America even to Prima Alta and above. The Classic Maya spoke two or three Mayan languages, while Mayan includes Zoquean and Totonacan, the dominant role was played by Uto-Aztecan, particularly by speakers of the Nahua groups of which was Náhuatl. Náhuatl is related to 13 languages spoken by the Hopi, Comanche, Pima, Shoshone, and other native people of North America.
The Náhuatl Language | MayaJourney



Please do not mix up the prehistoric times with the period we are concerned with.
During Conquest the Mayan spoke Nahuatl?, that according to wikipedia.
I was not there so can only go by what I read.

Sail,

I don't what scholarly credentials "Nativeweb" has, but I just spent a copious amount of time researching that question. Since you used Wikipedia first, please read this page on the History of Mayan Languages:

Mayan languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not once is the name Nahuatl mentioned.

Here is a graph of Mayan Languages. Not once is Nahuatl mentioned.



If you can find me an accredited site (College, Museum, Government, etc), then I may plead mea culpa, but until then, I stick by my previous statement. I will add however, there may be a couple of instances where Colonial Period Maya spoke some Nahuatl, so they could trade with the Aztec, but your assertion that Nahuatl was spoken commonly by the Maya (especially the Elite) is a big reach.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Sail,

I don't what scholarly credentials "Nativeweb" has, but I just spent a copious amount of time researching that question. Since you used Wikipedia first, please read this page on the History of Mayan Languages:

Mayan languages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not once is the name Nahuatl mentioned.

Here is a graph of Mayan Languages. Not once is Nahuatl mentioned.

View attachment 1014477

If you can find me an accredited site (College, Museum, Government, etc), then I may plead mea culpa, but until then, I stick by my previous statement. I will add however, there may be a couple of instances where Colonial Period Maya spoke some Nahuatl, so they could trade with the Aztec, but your assertion that Nahuatl was spoken commonly by the Maya (especially the Elite) is a big reach.

Mike

Mike,

I had that graph in front of me as I was typing my last post here. Professor Coe presented it in "Breaking the Maya Code".
I would not doubt it can be found in other sources. It would be interesting to see if any of the Mayan dialects have any connection to the Nahuatl groups, but I have serious doubts.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Joe, cafe?? Ya mean like Spanglish I doubt that it will ever be considered as a separate language, similar to Pidgin English as spoken in Micronesia. My word, "You likem long Mary Kai Kai ??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Joe, cafe?? Ya mean like Spanglish I doubt that it will ever be considered as a separate language, similar to Pidgin English as spoken in Micronesia. My word, "You likem long Mary Kai Kai ??

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

Well.......I used to chew my fingernails......does that count?

Take care,

Joe

 

[sailaway]

The Mayan and Nahuatl are separate languages. The question was did the Mayans speak Nahuatl. I showed where I got the information from and that is the best I can do. You are allowed to doubt that the Mayans of any importance did or did not speak Nahuatl, however that is a subject that must be taken up with the good folks at wiki-schools. I know as a Native American we tend to use what is necessary to communicate with our neighbors. I tend to believe that all the Mayans that did business outside of their own town spoke Nahuatl that according to Nahuatl language
Influence of Nahuatl on Mayan Language
Yucatecan Mayan language to new transformation process faced by interaction with groups Xiu they brought from the fifteenth century , possibly earlier, from the coast of the Gulf of Mexico, strong influence Toltec and certainly the Nahuatl . This influence even had a determining effect on the Maya pantheon with the presence of Kukulcan , which itself derived from Quetzalcoatl and generated resulting cultural and came to know that they faced, the Spanish conquerors in the sixteenth century .
Aztec or Mexican is known in Mayan as peninsular Huach strange meaning, which invites us to think in such influence from the Nahua of Chontalpan who had originally come to the region from the Mexico- Tenochtitlan and left an important legacy in lexicon of peninsular Maya.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idioma_maya
Thanks Mike for helping me with the site you posted.
It gives a greaT DEAL OF INFORMATIO0N. (other than the subject of other languages they spoke.)

 

[gollum]

Joe,

As is well established, the Maya were a flourishing culture 2,000 years (or more) before the Aztecs made their trip from Aztlan. Most scholars agree that on the subject of "loanwords" (words in use by one culture that are picked up by another), the Maya are more of a source than a repository. This means that since the Maya had been around for so long (and were so sophisticated), that other cultures borrowed from their language more often than the Maya used other languages. An easier leap for me to believe would have been to say that many Aztecs spoke Kichi Maya in the Southern/Southeastern parts of the Aztec Empire.

But even then, I doubt there was a lot of interchange between the two tribes. See, both the Aztec and Maya were "war based" societies. They thrived on war, and an integral part of their religious ceremonies involved human sacrifices. They got most of their sacrificial subjects from warring with other tribes. I doubt there was a lot of friendly banter between the two.

But like Joe says, I could be wrong.

Mike

 

[sailaway]

I can imagine there was lots of pleading and begging from the intended victim of the sacrifice. That means both sides had to hear the language of the other. even if it was only during these terrible events.

 

[deducer]

Joe,

As is well established, the Maya were a flourishing culture 2,000 years (or more) before the Aztecs made their trip from Aztlan. Most scholars agree that on the subject of "loanwords" (words in use by one culture that are picked up by another), the Maya are more of a source than a repository. This means that since the Maya had been around for so long (and were so sophisticated), that other cultures borrowed from their language more often than the Maya used other languages. An easier leap for me to believe would have been to say that many Aztecs spoke Kichi Maya in the Southern/Southeastern parts of the Aztec Empire.

But even then, I doubt there was a lot of interchange between the two tribes. See, both the Aztec and Maya were "war based" societies. They thrived on war, and an integral part of their religious ceremonies involved human sacrifices. They got most of their sacrificial subjects from warring with other tribes. I doubt there was a lot of friendly banter between the two.

But like Joe says, I could be wrong.

Mike

Going to hazard a guess that you were actually addressing Sail?

 

[markmar]

sailaway

Is unbelievable . You found my post an insult because I don't agree with your statement how the Virgin of Guadalupe mine is in Angel Basin of Superstitions Mountains . For your satisfaction , I apologise , but I am waiting for one picture of San Ramon water and a " snake " hieroglyphic from your site .
When I posted the aerial picture of the site , I wrote " For those who want to see the region " . I didn't forced anyone to look or to believes . Was only an image of the Virgin of Guadalupe mine . Why this noice ?
I didn't understood the relation between the Tumacacori map and the Sombrero Peak which you have posted .
You still to ignore THE CLUES and how the on map which show the Virgin of Guadalupe mine is written the word " TUMACACORI ". I am sorry but I still not understand your mindset . However , I respect your opinion .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe you posted " I use d to chew my fingernails" does that help?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Of corse Joe, it indicates the state of your mind when you were researching. Coffee?

Jose

Jose

 

[sailaway]

The Maya: Conquest of the K’iche by Pedro de Alvarado
In 1521, Hernán Cortés and barely 500 conquistadores had pulled off the stunning defeat of the mighty Aztec Empire by making good use of modern weapons and native Indian allies. During the campaign, young Pedro de Alvarado and his brothers rose in the ranks of Cortes’ army by showing themselves to be ruthless, courageous and ambitious. When Aztec records were deciphered, lists of vassal states paying tribute were discovered, and the K’iche were prominently mentioned. Alvarado was given the privilege of conquering them. In 1523, he set out with about 400 Spanish conquistadores and some 10,000 Indian allies.
The K’iche had been warned against the Spanish by Aztec Emperor Moctezuma in the waning days of his rule and flatly rejected Spanish offers to surrender and pay tribute, although they were proud and independent and would most likely have fought in any event. They selected young Tecún Umán as their war chief, and he sent out feelers to neighboring kingdoms, who refused to unite against the Spanish. All in all, he was able to round up about 10,000 warriors to fight the invaders.
The Maya: Conquest of the K’iche by Pedro de Alvarado

If they were paying tribute (or taxes) to the Aztecs means they had to have communication in the times of Spanish Conquistadors. Did Moctezuma speak Mayan to warn them?

The Maya did not perceive combat as a clash of people and weapons alone, but rather as a complex confrontation of spiritual and material forces. When Pedro de Alvarado, engaged the forces of the K'iche' Maya culture hero Tecún Umán in February 22, 1524, the Maya lord and his companions flew at him in the guise of eagles and lightening, according to native accounts, only to be defeated by the Spaniards superior spiritual forces in the form of "footless birds", holy ghosts, and a "floating maiden", the Virgin.
The Mayan Version:
At midnight the Indians went to Xel'juh, and the captain of the Indians who had transformed himself into an eagle became anxious to kill the Adelantado Tunathiú [Alvarado] and he could not kill him because a very fair maiden defended him; they were anxious to enter, but as soon as they saw this maiden they fell to the earth and they could not get up from the ground, and then came many footless birds, and those birds had surrounded the maiden, and the Indians wanted to kill the maiden and those footless birds defended her and blinded them." The attackers were paralyzed and blinded by the "Way'ob" of the Spanish [the Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit or perhaps angels who looked to them like footless birds].
The next day, I Q'anel in the Maya calendar, Tecún Umán himself came against the Spanish in his eagle "Way". "And then Captain Tecún flew up, he came like an eagle full of real feathers, which were not artificial; he wore wings which also sprang from his body and he wore three crowns, one was of gold, another of pearls and another of diamonds and emeralds." Tecún Umán went forward with the intention of killing Alvarado and thus defeating the battle beasts and the way of the Spanish. He struck at the great man-beast with all his power, hitting Alvarado's horse and taking its head off in a single blow. According to the K'iche, his lance was not made of metal, but of shiny stone which had a magic spell on it. When Tecún realized he had killed only the battle beast and not the man, he flew upward and came at Alvarado. The Spaniard was ready and impaled the charging king on his lance.

The Art of War
The Art of War is an ancient Chinese military treatise attributed to Sun Tzu
Military and intelligence applications

‘So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself. “Sun Wu Tzu

Condensed into: 'Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a thousand battles without disaster.'"

The Art of War is listed on the Marine Corps Professional Reading Program (formerly known as the Commandant's Reading List). It is recommended reading for all United States Military Intelligence personnel and is required reading for all CIA officers
The strategy of deception from The Art of War was studied and widely used by the KGB:
"I will force the enemy to take our strength for weakness, and our weakness for strength, and thus will turn his strength into weakness". The book is widely cited by KGB officers in charge of disinformation operations

The Art of War has been applied to many fields well outside of the military. Much of the text is about how to fight wars without actually having to do battle: it gives tips on how to outsmart one's opponent so that physical battle is not necessary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War

 

[cactusjumper]

sailaway,

Perhaps it would have been a bit more correct if we had written that the Maya, as a people, did not speak Nahuatl. Just about every civilization developed interpreters to deal with their neighbors.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sailaway]

TY Joe
Maybe.... Who Knows none of us were there.
I do doubt that at The Mayan peak (600-900 ad) that they would be in communication with outsiders as they were at war with each other. But as far as I can read the Mayans and Aztecs were in communication when the Spanish were there. I think we here are only concerned with when the Spanish were the Ruling class.

 

[sailaway]

markmar you stated you did not want to immigrate to the US, which means that you do not live here, but in the eastern Mediterranean (Thread: JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL #1673, Thread: DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak or The Caballo Mountains Post #90). The pictures you posted as being part of your site at Tumacacori are from work of another researcher, I have seen them before. Can you provide us with coordinates to where those stones are? (coiled snake, and boy statue) The site that had the pictures as I remember was talking about drug smugglers and illegals in that area of the Chico Statue. The area you are looking at has been gone over by Capt.BillT.

 

[markmar]

sailaway

If you are so smart , you can ask from Capt.BillT the coordinates .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

g

's afternoon Sailaway, tea or coffee? The main secret of the Spanish success in battle is that they used a form of the Old Romans hollow square;

A square could be formed of say 100 men per side, the rest being kept in reserve to replace casualties. In this battle configuration the Aztecs could only have at the most two Aztecs per Spaniard, and they interfered with each other. With superior tatics, armor, weapons and fighting ability it was almost a forgone conclusion'

Still you have to give them credit, when a yelling enemy of a ratio of perhaps 100/1 charfes you,, it takes a an act of supreme confidence or desperation to stand and fight' They considered an arrow trough the arm or a a lance in the side as minor irritations

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Don Jose de Guacamole,

Many times the fight was against more than a 100:1 ratio. I was amazed when I read "The True History of the Conquest of New Spain" by Bernal Diaz del Castillo. There would be 30 or 40 Spaniards huddled in a building in Tenochtitlan, and the Aztecs would throw 10,000 to 12,000 men at a time at them 24 hours a day, for days at a time. I can't imagine how insane that must have been.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Conquistadors - the REAL originators of that saying "get rich quick or DIE TRYING" literally!

 

[markmar]

I want to add some last details about the Virgin of Guadalupe mine , near Tumacacori . One of these details , could help to understand with approximation the scale of the map . In this aerial image , with red colour is marked the shape which is beside the intersections of lines , which lines end to the Virgin mine . With the yellow colour is marked the shape of the mine like is presented in the map .



Here ends my contribution about Jesuits treasures in this thread and I hope to find it helpful .

Good luck and have a nice day .