Continuum

[Matthew Roberts]

The Valenciana which was sold prior to becoming merchants? They must have had a map of the location if they were returning to it. Matthew, it would be much appreciated if you could share your thoughts on dating the Peralta Fish Map.

I only have an opinion on the Peralta Fish map. Frank Fish, Erie Schafer, John Burbridge, Pete Peralta and a few others formed a group to search for Peralta mines and treasure in the Superstition Mountains using the Fish map. It is my belief based on what Al Reser told me that the map was supplied by Pete Peralta and was either the original or an exact copy of the original. Al believed in the authenticity of the map. If the map is indeed authentic and the original it could easily date to the period prior to the Mexican American war.

 

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[markmar]

I don't see the reason the Peraltas to make any map prior 1846. They were the first owners and knew very well where the mines were.
I believe the first maps were made for the descendants of the first Peraltas, and began with the Salazar survey in 1854 and ended when Gonzalez of Manuel Peralta died in 1930.
The Fish map has too big scale to be worth even if the locations of the mines would be correct, so the only thing that would make it worth are some degrees in regards to a specific point, to walk that line and to stumble upon the mines. No matter how the landmarks are oriented in the map, the only thing that matters is the degrees. And the degrees are in the Xs.

 

[Oroblanco]

The Valenciana was sold because of the attacks by the Apaches on the Peraltas working at the mine. They went into the mercantile business with the proceeds of the mine (and the gold of course).

Marius amen to that I don't see any reason why the Peraltas would have made a map to the mines. Surely having been there repeatedly, they could not have had any need for a map to find them again.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

markmar, oroblanco,

You do not make a map to a place you already know about for yourself. You make it for someone who has never been there. I know of several mines and secret places in the mountains that I can find my way to in the dark.
But I have drawn a map to them for my son's and grandsons who haven't been there and may want to go there one day.

 

[Oroblanco]

markmar, oroblanco,

You do not make a map to a place you already know about for yourself. You make it for someone who has never been there. I know of several mines and secret places in the mountains that I can find my way to in the dark.
But I have drawn a map to them for my son's and grandsons who haven't been there and may want to go there one day.

Yes a map COULD be drawn for a son or anyone else that had never been to the mines, yet we have no indication that was the reason for this map in particular. There are after all SO many fakes and false maps that won't get anyone any kind of treasure or gold or silver mine just a lot of exercise. What makes this one treasure map a genuine article, not to be doubted?

For our readers not posting here is a good collection of such treasure maps, none of which have resulted in finding a lost mine or treasure!

https://www.ajpl.org/treasure-maps/

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Oroblanco,

What indication do you have that the map wasn't drawn for the particular reason of showing someone else the way to a mine ?

And what makes this one treasure map not a genuine article and one to be doubted ?

And the same logic could be used to prove the Christian religion a fake and a fraud because the other 3000 religions are also fakes and frauds.

It's not a valid or logical argument it's an opinion. I only have my own opinion about the Fish map, I can't prove it real or not real and neither can anyone else. I respect anyone's opinion who disagrees with me.

 

[somehiker]

To us, it's a treasure map.
For the Peralta's, it likely would have been originally created as a legal document, dated and signed like a modern survey would be.

 

[arcana-exploration]

To us, it's a treasure map.
For the Peralta's, it likely would have been originally created as a legal document, dated and signed like a modern survey would be.

Yes, it is legit. Why is everything, someone cannot figure out fake? The fish Mappa is legit.

 

[Hal Croves]

Wrong state and it’s not gold but the scenario is similar.
View attachment 1747717

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...+Mine&y=9&x=5&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

This should be the same Josh Parker mentioned in the article. If not, it was his father Josh D Parker, but I doubt it based on age.
[h=1]Joshua Everett Parker[/h]

BIRTH	22 Jul 1853Hendricks County, Indiana, USA
DEATH	4 Nov 1940 (aged 87)Orange County, California, USA
BURIAL	Santa Ana Cemetery Santa Ana, Orange County, California, USA

 

[sdcfia]

To us, it's a treasure map.
For the Peralta's, it likely would have been originally created as a legal document, dated and signed like a modern survey would be.

That's an interesting thought, but if the rumors are true about the Peralta mines, they indicate that the family operated covertly in AZ. Being a family affair, why create such a document pointing to secret locations well-known by the family, apparently for years? Such a document would be a threat to the secret. This of course is the rational selling all the treasure maps that have floated around the public domain for so many years: "somehow the secret has become revealed, here it is in black and white."

 

[sdcfia]

Oroblanco,

What indication do you have that the map wasn't drawn for the particular reason of showing someone else the way to a mine ?

And what makes this one treasure map not a genuine article and one to be doubted ?

And the same logic could be used to prove the Christian religion a fake and a fraud because the other 3000 religions are also fakes and frauds.

It's not a valid or logical argument it's an opinion. I only have my own opinion about the Fish map, I can't prove it real or not real and neither can anyone else. I respect anyone's opinion who disagrees with me.

The answers of course are that the believer is accepting those conjectures on personal faith - an opinion - not demonstrable proof. As always, the burden of proof needed to convince others is on the claimant.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

The answers of course are that the believer is accepting those conjectures on personal faith - an opinion - not demonstrable proof. As always, the burden of proof needed to convince others is on the claimant.

sdcfia,

You are correct, the belief is my opinion. Not based on faith but on what I have been able to learn about the circumstances surrounding the map and people involved. I have no proof, again just my opinion.

The burden of proof IS on the claimant, exactly. But others cannot claim verification of falsehood without equal probability. It's a classic standoff. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just offering my opinion and stating why I believe what I do. I always respect all those who do not agree with me.

 

[markmar]

That's an interesting thought, but if the rumors are true about the Peralta mines, they indicate that the family operated covertly in AZ. Being a family affair, why create such a document pointing to secret locations well-known by the family, apparently for years? Such a document would be a threat to the secret. This of course is the rational selling all the treasure maps that have floated around the public domain for so many years: "somehow the secret has become revealed, here it is in black and white."

Steve, this map like you can see it , would be not a treat to their secret places because the spots ( mines ) in the map are depicted in the wrong place IMO.
A treat would be if someone who knows how to decrypt the map codes, would reveals on the map the correct places. They had not problems to show or to " sell " their maps to anyone because all were encrypted. This is the reason nobody found anything which is depicted in their maps.

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco,

What indication do you have that the map wasn't drawn for the particular reason of showing someone else the way to a mine ?

The history of the "Peralta" Frank Fish map is far from a certainty. In legal terms this would be considered a questionable "chain of custody" or possession. It could have been created as a work of art. Frank Fish claimed to have obtained the original in Mexico during a trip there, and unfortunately the creation of treasure maps has a long history of being a regular little cottage industry in Mexico, to sell to the unwary.

Matthew also wrote

And what makes this one treasure map not a genuine article and one to be doubted ?

I see that Steve already addressed this but in addition, the Fish map was actually published in a magazine in 1959, and has been in public circulation for six decades. In that time period, many, many treasure hunters have used the map to attempt to locate treasure or mines without success. That point alone is a red flag that it is probably not the genuine article.

Matthew also wrote

And the same logic could be used to prove the Christian religion a fake and a fraud because the other 3000 religions are also fakes and frauds.

As religions are basically dealing with the supernatural rather than temporal matters, faith is the key ingredient involved, while for temporal matters faith is not the only factor we must rely on.

Matthew also wrote

It's not a valid or logical argument it's an opinion. I only have my own opinion about the Fish map, I can't prove it real or not real and neither can anyone else. I respect anyone's opinion who disagrees with me.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion and beliefs. I can't prove the Frank Fish map is false, however the record on it so far has produced nothing but disappointments for those whom have attempted to use it for the purpose it is supposedly created for. As Steve once put it, and I am paraphrasing but we can't put a lot of trust in treasure maps and waybills that have been in public circulation for a long time. If these guides were genuine someone would be on the evening news showing their amazing discovery before we could get the truck loaded to go. We are not exactly the first treasure hunters to come along after all.

 

[azdave35]

The history of the "Peralta" Frank Fish map is far from a certainty. In legal terms this would be considered a questionable "chain of custody" or possession. It could have been created as a work of art. Frank Fish claimed to have obtained the original in Mexico during a trip there, and unfortunately the creation of treasure maps has a long history of being a regular little cottage industry in Mexico, to sell to the unwary.

Matthew also wrote


I see that Steve already addressed this but in addition, the Fish map was actually published in a magazine in 1959, and has been in public circulation for six decades. In that time period, many, many treasure hunters have used the map to attempt to locate treasure or mines without success. That point alone is a red flag that it is probably not the genuine article.

Matthew also wrote


As religions are basically dealing with the supernatural rather than temporal matters, faith is the key ingredient involved, while for temporal matters faith is not the only factor we must rely on.

Matthew also wrote


You are certainly welcome to your opinion and beliefs. I can't prove the Frank Fish map is false, however the record on it so far has produced nothing but disappointments for those whom have attempted to use it for the purpose it is supposedly created for. As Steve once put it, and I am paraphrasing but we can't put a lot of trust in treasure maps and waybills that have been in public circulation for a long time. If these guides were genuine someone would be on the evening news showing their amazing discovery before we could get the truck loaded to go. We are not exactly the first treasure hunters to come along after all.

roy...i don't put stock in any of these so called treasure maps..like you said,,none of them have led anyone to any kind of treasure..i look at it this way...if i had a bonafide map to a mine or treasure it would never leave my possession nor would anyone else be allowed to look at it...and i'm guessing the rest of the human population is the same way...that's the main reason i don't put stock in any of the hundreds of maps out there that supposedly lead to riches in the superstition mountains..if the maps were the real deal they wouldn't be "out there"...they would be in someone's safe

 

[JohnWhite]

The history of the "Peralta" Frank Fish map is far from a certainty. In legal terms this would be considered a questionable "chain of custody" or possession. It could have been created as a work of art. Frank Fish claimed to have obtained the original in Mexico during a trip there, and unfortunately the creation of treasure maps has a long history of being a regular little cottage industry in Mexico, to sell to the unwary.

Matthew also wrote


I see that Steve already addressed this but in addition, the Fish map was actually published in a magazine in 1959, and has been in public circulation for six decades. In that time period, many, many treasure hunters have used the map to attempt to locate treasure or mines without success. That point alone is a red flag that it is probably not the genuine article.

Matthew also wrote


As religions are basically dealing with the supernatural rather than temporal matters, faith is the key ingredient involved, while for temporal matters faith is not the only factor we must rely on.

Matthew also wrote


You are certainly welcome to your opinion and beliefs. I can't prove the Frank Fish map is false, however the record on it so far has produced nothing but disappointments for those whom have attempted to use it for the purpose it is supposedly created for. As Steve once put it, and I am paraphrasing but we can't put a lot of trust in treasure maps and waybills that have been in public circulation for a long time. If these guides were genuine someone would be on the evening news showing their amazing discovery before we could get the truck loaded to go. We are not exactly the first treasure hunters to come along after all.

And we will not be the last treasure hunters either oro...There will always be someone out there who will be lured by the possible riches and adventure associated with treasure hunting...lol...We as humans are so gullible and we are easily lead into such stories and tales...IF I am poor today and have a chance to be rich tomorrow...Sure I'm in...The good old get rich quick syndrome...hahaha...Once you catch it...It is impossible to get rid of...

Ed T

 

[azdave35]

And we will not be the last treasure hunters either oro...There will always be someone out there who will be lured by the possible riches and adventure associated with treasure hunting...lol...We as humans are so gullible and we are easily lead into such stories and tales...IF I am poor today and have a chance to be rich tomorrow...Sure I'm in...The good old get rich quick syndrome...hahaha...Once you catch it...It is impossible to get rid of...

Ed T

that's the most sensible post you have made on here

 

[JohnWhite]

that's the most sensible post you have made on here

I will be thinking about your reply when I am in Hermosillo Dave...I will be there during the rendezvous...lol...It is going to be hot too...I doubt I'll be getting out much...But who knowsWe'll just have to wait and see...I wonder how much sense I'm making in this post...

I wonder IF I will stash a couple of rocks in Quartzsite for the snow birds to findOnly time will tell...hehehe

Ed T

 

[Hal Croves]

sdcfia,

You are correct, the belief is my opinion. Not based on faith but on what I have been able to learn about the circumstances surrounding the map and people involved. I have no proof, again just my opinion.

The burden of proof IS on the claimant, exactly. But others cannot claim verification of falsehood without equal probability. It's a classic standoff. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just offering my opinion and stating why I believe what I do. I always respect all those who do not agree with me.

Your opinion and interactions with those following the map are a form of proof. It may not be absolute, but its certainly supporting proof.

 

[Hal Croves]

Steve, this map like you can see it , would be not a treat to their secret places because the spots ( mines ) in the map are depicted in the wrong place IMO.
A treat would be if someone who knows how to decrypt the map codes, would reveals on the map the correct places. They had not problems to show or to " sell " their maps to anyone because all were encrypted. This is the reason nobody found anything which is depicted in their maps.

Another reason is that you could be standing on top of one and never know it. That's probably where your "code" comes into play, a familiar symbol to mark the actual site. Without knowing where to look with your GPR and permit, time and erosion are the treasure hunters only hope.