Continuum

[Hal Croves]

The history of the "Peralta" Frank Fish map is far from a certainty. In legal terms this would be considered a questionable "chain of custody" or possession. It could have been created as a work of art. Frank Fish claimed to have obtained the original in Mexico during a trip there, and unfortunately the creation of treasure maps has a long history of being a regular little cottage industry in Mexico, to sell to the unwary.

Matthew also wrote


I see that Steve already addressed this but in addition, the Fish map was actually published in a magazine in 1959, and has been in public circulation for six decades. In that time period, many, many treasure hunters have used the map to attempt to locate treasure or mines without success. That point alone is a red flag that it is probably not the genuine article.

Matthew also wrote


As religions are basically dealing with the supernatural rather than temporal matters, faith is the key ingredient involved, while for temporal matters faith is not the only factor we must rely on.

Matthew also wrote


You are certainly welcome to your opinion and beliefs. I can't prove the Frank Fish map is false, however the record on it so far has produced nothing but disappointments for those whom have attempted to use it for the purpose it is supposedly created for. As Steve once put it, and I am paraphrasing but we can't put a lot of trust in treasure maps and waybills that have been in public circulation for a long time. If these guides were genuine someone would be on the evening news showing their amazing discovery before we could get the truck loaded to go. We are not exactly the first treasure hunters to come along after all.

Could you point to that 1959 article?
I think that you wrote a fair response but since 1939, there hasn't been any motivation or incentive for the lucky few to step forward, if there are any.

Treasure Trove Hunting

A treasure trove is defined as money, gems, or precious worked metal (in the form of coins, plate, bullion, etc.) of unknown ownership. Not included are recent vintage coins, locatable minerals, or archeological resources and specimens. Searching for such treasure must be authorized by a permit. Applications for Treasure Trove Permits are evaluated on a case-by-case basis; approval requires that evidence of treasure is of such a character that a person of ordinary prudence would be justified in the expenditure of labor and funds, with a reasonable possibility of success. Permits are issued for a specific number of days and the site is subject to inspection.


https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/specialplaces/?cid=fsbdev3_018726

 

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[Hal Croves]

And we will not be the last treasure hunters either oro...There will always be someone out there who will be lured by the possible riches and adventure associated with treasure hunting...lol...We as humans are so gullible and we are easily lead into such stories and tales...IF I am poor today and have a chance to be rich tomorrow...Sure I'm in...The good old get rich quick syndrome...hahaha...Once you catch it...It is impossible to get rid of...

Ed T

Unless you find a mine with a cache of value in it (processed ore/antiques) and somehow obtain permission to disturb the site, discovering one of the Apache Mines would only leave you with bragging rights and a poisoned hand.

 

[Hal Croves]

Another reason is that you could be standing on top of one and never know it. That's probably where your "code" comes into play, a familiar symbol to mark the actual site. Without knowing where to look with your GPR and permit, time and erosion are the treasure hunters only hope.

An example of how it will happen.

NO END OF GOLD
The Wonderful Mine at Fool's Canyon

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...+mine&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

 

[markmar]

Another reason is that you could be standing on top of one and never know it. That's probably where your "code" comes into play, a familiar symbol to mark the actual site. Without knowing where to look with your GPR and permit, time and erosion are the treasure hunters only hope.

If you would be standing on top of one covered by Apache, the most possible is to don't understand there is a mine. But if was covered by Mexicans, they had a specific method to cover the mines which is easy to recognize. If you will see a round/circle shape of big rocks there and could not be seen the bedrock in that circle, then there is a big percent to be a Spanish/Mexican mine. They used to set a layer of logs above the shaft and at their edges put some big roks on the lip of the shaft and after another layer of logs crisscrossing the first with another big rocks at their edges on the lip of the shaft. After covered the logs with debris, dust, plants and few small rocks. Sometimes they would set a big rock in the centre.
If the years would passed and the mine would not been opened by the owners, this method of covering would worked as a death trap, by stepping on the rotten logs, falling in the shaft and after the big rocks which supported the edges falling too inside like a domino principle.
This was their method to cover a mine shaft, which for others not familiar with this method , could believe how that shape would be an old arrastra or an old Indian camp.

 

[Hal Croves]

If you would be standing on top of one covered by Apache, the most possible is to don't understand there is a mine. But if was covered by Mexicans, they had a specific method to cover the mines which is easy to recognize. If you will see a round/circle shape of big rocks there and could not be seen the bedrock in that circle, then there is a big percent to be a Spanish/Mexican mine. They used to set a layer of logs above the shaft and at their edges put some big roks on the lip of the shaft and after another layer of logs crisscrossing the first with another big rocks at their edges on the lip of the shaft. After covered the logs with debris, dust, plants and few small rocks. Sometimes they would set a big rock in the centre.
If the years would passed and the mine would not been opened by the owners, this method of covering would worked as a death trap, by stepping on the rotten logs, falling in the shaft and after the big rocks which supported the edges falling too like a domino principle.
This was their method to cover a mine shaft, which for others not familiar with this method , could believe how that shape would be an old arrastra or an old Indian camp.

Would Mexicans have use caliche to cover the logs over the shaft?
Storm wrote that it was done by Apache women.

 

[JohnWhite]

Unless you find a mine with a cache of value in it (processed ore/antiques) and somehow obtain permission to disturb the site, discovering one of the Apache Mines would only leave you with bragging rights and a poisoned hand.

Like I have stated before Hal...Only time will tell...I know that I have found an area that will solve many treasure tales...

Ed T

 

[markmar]

Would Mexicans have use caliche to cover the logs over the shaft?
Storm wrote that it was done by Apache women.

Apache used caliche but didn't put rocks around. Mexicans didn't use caliche and sometimes if the place was very rocky and remote they would leave the shaft open or partially covered with brush.

 

[Hal Croves]

Like I have stated before Hal...Only time will tell...I know that I have found an area that will solve many treasure tales...

Ed T

You could have used a more reassuring word than "tales", but I look forward to reading about your area.

 

[JohnWhite]

You could have used a more reassuring word than "tales", but I look forward to reading about your area.

Would treasure legends have been a better description Hallol...One day...Y si dios quiere...I am a simple poor man who does not need very much...So who knows IF I will ever try to return to any of the areas of which I speak...Heck...Someone may have stumbled upon some of them by now and they may even have filed a claim on said areas...I don't want to be a claim jumper...I just hope that, IF anyone has found any of the areas in question, they don't end up in pieces in plastic bags...I heard that some of the cartels are chopping people into pieces and mixing the body parts up and putting parts from several people into different bags...Or so I've heard...Has anyone else heard any such talesI hope I used tales properly...

I guess I got lucky when I traveled in those hills...I believe I have some pretty big cajones...But I am fairly confident when I say...I believe my days exploring those hills may be behind me...I'll leave that up to the young bucks...

Ed T

 

[Hal Croves]

Apache used caliche but didn't put rocks around. Mexicans didn't use caliche and sometimes if the place was very rocky and remote they would leave the shaft open or partially covered with brush.

Two schools of thought here markmar. Either Storm is correct and the Apache hid the mines after chasing the Peratlas from the range, or as The Salazar Survey tells us, the Peraltas hid the mines in 1853 to keep them from the "yanquis". If it was the Peraltas, they would have marked the spot.

Genealogy tells us which of the Peraltas could have traveled with the 1853 expedition to close the mines.
And 1853 would have been the year to do it.

 

[sdcfia]

... You are certainly welcome to your opinion and beliefs. I can't prove the Frank Fish map is false, however the record on it so far has produced nothing but disappointments for those whom have attempted to use it for the purpose it is supposedly created for. As Steve once put it, and I am paraphrasing but we can't put a lot of trust in treasure maps and waybills that have been in public circulation for a long time. If these guides were genuine someone would be on the evening news showing their amazing discovery before we could get the truck loaded to go. We are not exactly the first treasure hunters to come along after all.

A logical conclusion could be that such treasure maps are intentionally disinformative, which could explain why they appear in the public domain in the first place. One might suspect that the rationale for releasing phony maps could be: 1) to direct curious searchers to the wrong places (if genuine sites actually exist); 2) to simply hoax the public. You're right - if the maps were genuine, it seems like the goods should have been recovered long ago.

 

[markmar]

Two schools of thought here markmar. Either Storm is correct and the Apache hid the mines after chasing the Peratlas from the range, or as The Salazar Survey tells us, the Peraltas hid the mines in 1853 to keep them from the "yanquis". If it was the Peraltas, they would have marked the spot.

Genealogy tells us which of the Peraltas could have traveled with the 1853 expedition to close the mines.
And 1853 would have been the year to do it.

Apache hid only the LDM inclined shaft which was in their Holy land and the other mines on that land have been hidden by the Mexicans prior 1853 and remain covered by then.
When Waltz gave the clues to Holmes and told about a circle of rocks on a sadle before Holmes would go to the top of the ridge above Waltz camp ( house ruin ), I have understood immediately how that circle is one of the mines depicted in the Minas del Oro map, up on the sadle and between the Casa Caverna and Tunel . This portion of that map is a reproduction of the Perfil mapa without the face profil, but adds the mines on the sadle and one mine below.

IMO, in the " Salazar Survey " trip the Peraltas worked and made a survey for only one mine. They used imaginary lines, one from Casa Caverna to the first summit from their camp at the Salt River and another from WN in a specific direction, which intersected above that specific mine. For that mine were made some maps like the Gonzalez-Clark map ( with the line from the WN to the Four Peaks ), the Ortiz map, the Cuenta de Oro map ( the black dot ), Minas del Oro map and is depicted also in the Fish map ( the middle from the three in line ).

Edit: Changed the Oro de Indios map with MInas del Oro map.

 

[Oroblanco]

Could you point to that 1959 article?
I think that you wrote a fair response but since 1939, there hasn't been any motivation or incentive for the lucky few to step forward, if there are any.

Treasure Trove Hunting

A treasure trove is defined as money, gems, or precious worked metal (in the form of coins, plate, bullion, etc.) of unknown ownership. Not included are recent vintage coins, locatable minerals, or archeological resources and specimens. Searching for such treasure must be authorized by a permit. Applications for Treasure Trove Permits are evaluated on a case-by-case basis; approval requires that evidence of treasure is of such a character that a person of ordinary prudence would be justified in the expenditure of labor and funds, with a reasonable possibility of success. Permits are issued for a specific number of days and the site is subject to inspection.


https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/tonto/specialplaces/?cid=fsbdev3_018726

Greg Davis researched the history of the Fish map and wrote a good article on it which was published in the Superstition Mountains Volume 12, 1994, the original article with the photo of the map appears in “Men In Adventure,” Vol. 1, No. 2, July 1959, page 30-33. The story was titled “Meet Mr. Buried Treasure” by Lieutenant Harry E. Rieseberg. The photo of the map is on page 31. Somehiker had posted this info a while ago but it was originally posted by Greg Davis on that "other channel" forum and worth hunting up if anyone is interested in the history of this treasure map.

I would respectfully disagree on your logic point there, it is human nature to wish to share good news and if anyone had any success with the Fish map we would be hearing about it or I should say we would have heard about it. The finder(s) might well have had any treasure/gold mine seized by the Feds but they would have announced it to the world. I stand by the statement that the Fish treasure map has not resulted in anyone having success finding a gold mine or treasure. (Anyone is welcome to prove my statement wrong there too.)

Steve - you are so right. It is obvious that something is wrong with every one of these treasure maps. It has to be either a deliberate deception by the map makers themselves, or some kind of mistake that is causing the same end results - failures to find anything of value other than fresh air, exercise and pretty country.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

If I were to follow a treasure map, any treasure map, and locate a mine or treasure using that map, you can believe 100% that neither you nor anyone else would ever know about it. Treasure Net however seems to be full of people who can't wait to talk about all the mines and treasures they found or know exactly where they are at.

 

[azdave35]

If I were to follow a treasure map, any treasure map, and locate a mine or treasure using that map, you can believe 100% that neither you nor anyone else would ever know about it. Treasure Net however seems to be full of people who can't wait to talk about all the mines and treasures they found or know exactly where they are at.

matthew...i know a few people that have found lost mines or treasures (all deceased now)..none of them used a map to do so...a few of us here know why those maps were fabricated..i'm not saying all these "maps" are bogus but most are ....

 

[JohnWhite]

If I were to follow a treasure map, any treasure map, and locate a mine or treasure using that map, you can believe 100% that neither you nor anyone else would ever know about it. Treasure Net however seems to be full of people who can't wait to talk about all the mines and treasures they found or know exactly where they are at.

I couldn't have said it better myself Matthew...lol...Some of us just aren't all that gung ho into proving our statements to anyone...We are content in knowing that which we know...I could take you or anyone to the beginning of the trail Matthew...But I do not believe I could take you to the Cursum Perficio...And IF I were to do such a thing...I would require you or anyone else I might take...To sign a hold harmless form just in case something might happen to anyone I might take to said area...As I have stated...I have heard that the cartels are chopping people up in some of the areas that I have been to in the past...Believe it or not...

Ed T

 

[Hal Croves]

Greg Davis researched the history of the Fish map and wrote a good article on it which was published in the Superstition Mountains Volume 12, 1994, the original article with the photo of the map appears in “Men In Adventure,” Vol. 1, No. 2, July 1959, page 30-33. The story was titled “Meet Mr. Buried Treasure” by Lieutenant Harry E. Rieseberg. The photo of the map is on page 31. Somehiker had posted this info a while ago but it was originally posted by Greg Davis on that "other channel" forum and worth hunting up if anyone is interested in the history of this treasure map.

I would respectfully disagree on your logic point there, it is human nature to wish to share good news and if anyone had any success with the Fish map we would be hearing about it or I should say we would have heard about it. The finder(s) might well have had any treasure/gold mine seized by the Feds but they would have announced it to the world. I stand by the statement that the Fish treasure map has not resulted in anyone having success finding a gold mine or treasure. (Anyone is welcome to prove my statement wrong there too.)

Steve - you are so right. It is obvious that something is wrong with every one of these treasure maps. It has to be either a deliberate deception by the map makers themselves, or some kind of mistake that is causing the same end results - failures to find anything of value other than fresh air, exercise and pretty country.

The existing policy discourages anyone who finds something to step forward. No one needs to use the Fish Map to prove it authentic, we just need someone to step forward, share their discovery location, then compare it to the Fish Map.

 

[Hal Croves]

If I were to follow a treasure map, any treasure map, and locate a mine or treasure using that map, you can believe 100% that neither you nor anyone else would ever know about it. Treasure Net however seems to be full of people who can't wait to talk about all the mines and treasures they found or know exactly where they are at.

Matthew,
There are a few important differences in the Legends of Adventure Peralta Fish Map, compared to the original. Do you think that those differences were intentional?

 

[somehiker]

What Greg had to say.....

"The Fish Map

Post by Gregory E. Davis » Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:34 pm
Gentlemen, I have read with much interest the numerous recent discussions and speculations regarding the origins of Linda Peralta's copy of the so called "Fish Treasure Map" on the Lost Dutchman Goldmine Forum. This was the recent topic called "El Cerrotero de los Minas Oro Apacho." The "Fish Treasure Map" was also discussed in much detail on the Forum back in October of 2002. At that time I had meant to post a few comments. However, now may be a more opportune time. I may be able to set the record straight on this issue for I was personally acquainted with most of the parties involved in this matter, i.e. John Burbridge, Frank Peralta, Erie Schaefer, Bill Schaefer, Tom Glover, Al Reser, and Linda Peralta. I have access to the letters and correspondences of John Burbridge, Erie Schaefer, Al Reser, along with some letters of Frank Peralta, Walter Armantrout, and Myron Brun who were involved directly or indirectly with the distribution of copies of the Fish Treasure Map. Finally, I was present during a number of deliberations when Erie Schaefer and John Burbridge discussed the Fish Map and their involvement with it, its history, background, copies made, and copy distribution among their syndicate members. This is the foundation from which my forthcoming statements are based and derived.

First, I do not intend to go into the history behind the “Fish Treasure Map.” That is spelled out in Erie Schaefer's book, “Dead Men Do Tell Tales,” and an article I wrote for the “Superstition Mountain Journal,” Vol. 12, 1994, titled “The Fish Treasure Map.” The picture of the Fish Map on page 13 of that journal is a true photograph taken by Al Reser of the actual/original map that Frank Fish alleged to have obtained while in Mexico. The proof of that will surface as this story develops.

Second, this story gets a bit complicated especially when trying to explain its background history and the events that lead up to the origin of the various copies of the Fish Map and their distribution. So, please bear with me as I proceed to lay the foundation to this narrative.

The story of the “Fish Treasure Map” copies start with John Burbridge, a long time treasure hunter, prospector, and searcher for the Lost Dutchman/Peralta gold mines in the Superstition Mountains of Arizona. John's search for these elusive gold mines covers a period of over thirty years. John was a member of Barry Storm’s 1938 expedition into the Superstition Mountains and later published a small book about his adventures and theories called “Arizona’s Monument to Lost Mines.” Although he located many tantalizing clues, his ultimate goal of gold discovery proved fruitless. Frustrated by his inability to locate these hidden mines, John began asking himself the question: “why?” In 1963, while on a trip to Kansas, he had a chance meeting with a Darrel Robertson of Konewa, Oklahoma, who was of Native American descent. Darrel and John hit it off right from the start and spent a number of days discussing Indian life, heritage, and beliefs. Little did John realize that this meeting, and the influence of Darrel’s stories, would have a profound influence on his thinking toward the Superstition Mountain treasures.

When John returned home from his trip he began to theorize along the following lines: “The gold mines in the Superstition Mountains are guarded by the Thunder gods and the spirits of the long departed Apache Indians. The gold is cursed to the White Man and the only way to resolve this dilemma is to approach the search with a new concept.” John hit upon an idea. If he and an assembly of searchers were to organize in a group, pool their information, resources, maps, collective knowledge, and work together as a team to search for the mines - with the expressed purpose of using part of the future profits for the good and betterment of mankind in some form - then the curse would be lifted which would ultimately lead to the discovery of the gold mine locations.

With this perception in mind, John approached a number of his “Dutch Hunter” acquaintances and eventually assembled them into a group called the “Legend of Adventure.” This took place around 1965. The Legend of Adventure consisted of six members who were to jointly seek and prove that the Peralta Mines were real and did exist. And, should they locate the mines or caches, to agree to its division among them along with the goal of setting up a trust fund for helping young people in need of higher education. This approach they felt would break the Apache curse of the Superstition Mountains. The group members were John and Rue Burbridge of Canoga Park, Calif., William and Erie Schaefer of Chino, Calif., Walter and Rose Armantrout of Torrance, Calif., Pedro Francisco Peralta of Riverside, Calif., Myron and Dorothy Brun of Young, Arizona, and Darrel and Pat Robertson of Konewa, Okla.

With the group Legend of Adventure formerly organized, John began to gather and compile from each member their contributions of clues. John provided 30 years of experience and research, Walter Armantrout and Myron Brun donated their research papers and 50 years of combined searching experience. Darrel Robertson added the tribal tales of his people as they related to the massacre of the Peraltas which had been told to him as a boy of the Warm Spring Apaches. This story was handed down by a member of that tribe who claimed to have been present at the massacre. Frank Peralta gave to John the stories of the Peralta family as passed down to him from his kin. Frank stated that his great grandfather, Pedro Peralta, and Uncle Miguel were killed by the Apaches and sealed in a cave or mine. It was Walter Armantrout who introduced John to Erie Schaefer, who at that time owned the Fish Map that had been given to Frank Fish in Mexico. This first visit with Erie Schaefer was when John first saw the Fish Map. From that point on he and the syndicate had full access to it.

During John’s next trip to the Schaefer Turkey Ranch, he made a full size tracing of the map. The “Fish Treasure Map” is 11” x 13-1/2” in size and made of what appears to be dark brown very thin parchment or animal skin. The ink is a light back brown in color. John attempted to trace the Spanish words and phrases from the original map onto his tracing. Herein lies some of the confusion. John, not being familiar with the Spanish language, added his own interpretation as to what the words were and how they were spelled. He told me that he did his best at tying to copy it. However, there were a number of words on the Fish Map that were very hard to read and make out as to their meaning. This is due to the map being terribly discolored to a dark brown caused by a chemical reaction gone wrong. Erie Schaefer had been convinced by a group of men that they could bring out some of the faded lettering on the map by using a special chemical treatment. Therefore, this would allow them to read the more faded words. Erie allowed the team to subject the map to the process, the results of which were disastrous. The map went from a light tan to a dark black brown.

Back to John’s copy, I have in the John Burbridge Collection a sample of the copy made by John of the Fish Map with the Spanish words drawn in with his own handwriting. I kwon that it is John’s handwriting from comparing it to numerous letters written in John’s own hand from his collection. They match the lettering on the tracing copy of that map made by John. The terrain tracing from John’s copy matches exactly the terrain outlines on the original Fish Map. During one of my many visits with John, he told me how he made the tracing and mentioned the trouble he was having with some of the Spanish words and how he guessed at the spelling, not being sure that it was correct.

After completing the tracing copy of the Fish Map, John made a photocopy of the tracing and he took it to each member of the Legend of Adventure, having them sign the copy. He did this as a gesture on their part to keep the map confidential for when he finished gathering all the signatures he made additional copies. These were both in the original size and reduced to size (8-1/2” x 11”), which he provided to each member of the Legends of Adventure group. Samples of these copies of both the large and small size of the map are in the Burbridge Collection in the archive collections of the Superstition Mountain Historical Society.

Frank Peralta, being a member of the Legend of Adventure, obviously received one of these copies that John provided to the members. It was Frank’s copy that eventually ended up in the possession of Linda Peralta. She, not knowing its lineage, most likely thought it was a true copy handed down through her family from previous generations. It is a picture of Linda Peralta’s Fish Map copy which she allowed Tom Glover to use in his book, “The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz – Part One.” See page 325 of his book. Tom Glover showed me a copy of the picture of the map Linda let him use and it matches exactly with the maps that John Burbridge gave to the members of his group - except the signatures are set differently than the original. That is because the Peralta copy was originally void of signatures. The signatures for Linda’s copy were added later by the Legend of Adventure members who had joined in on the 1966 expedition to the Superstition Mountains. They used this map on their trip and Frank Peralta had each participating member sign it prior to the start of their expedition. After the trip was over, the map was given to Frank Peralta for his files. That explains the additional expedition notations. The story of this 1966 expedition into the Superstition Mountains by the members of the Legend of Adventure was published in the “Rohr News, (Riverside, Calif.), April 4, 1966, Page 5, Col. 3-6. It’s titled “Peralta Seeks Lost Mines.”

In closing I would like to touch on the question of the “Fish Treasure Map” now in the possession of the Superstition Mountain Historical Society as being the same map Frank Fish had in his possession. Frank kept the map in his shop, the Gold Rush Museum, at Amador City, California, and his earlier museum located in Corona Del Mar, California. It was hanging on the wall. However, it was cleverly concealed behind a calendar. In 1959, Frank allowed a picture of the map to be published in the magazine “Men In Adventure,” Vol. 1, No. 2, July 1959, page 30-33. The story was titled “Meet Mr. Buried Treasure” and was by Lieutenant Harry E. Rieseberg. The photo of the map is on page 31. It matches exactly with the maap held by the Superstition Mountain Historical Society.

In John Burbridge’s collection, there are two small Browny Camera snap-shots made of the original map. The pictures were taken by John and shown to me during one of my many visits with him. He verified they were pictures taken of the original map. Those pictures, although of poor quality, do match the original Fish Map. In 1973 I visited Erie and Bill Schaefer at their turkey ranch in Chino, Californina. While there, Erie showed me the Fish Map that was hanging on the wall in her den. This was the same map that Al Reser showed me years later after he had purchased it from Bill Schaefer and subsequently gave to the Superstition Mountain Historical Society. That map is the same map I saw on Erie’s den wall and it matches all the other photographs. Even the old frame it was mounted on is the same. When Al passed the map to me to put in the archives of the historical society, I did make one change. I took it out of the old frame and remounted it between two glass plates in an archival frame to protect it from further deterioration. This should put to rest any question as to whether or not the “Fish Treasure Map” or “Peralta Fish Map” now held by the Superstition Mountain Historical Society is the same one that Frank Fish claimed he obtained in Mexico along with any other questions about the map copies made by John Burbridge and passed on to Frank Peralta.

Cordially, Gregory E. Davis "

 

[sdcfia]

Did Fish himself reveal where, when, how and from whom this map came into his possession? Not someone else's story, but Fish's own words.