Willie L Douthit

[Goldstar1]

Too bad Willie didnt have a facebook page ...
or youtube like this guy who found the lost dutchman

 

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[whiskeyrat]

The Willie stories form the framework upon which many of the Caballo legends are based, yes, but to me, there is something wrong with it all. I don't mean to pop anyone's balloons, but let's face it - balloons generally remain afloat due to hot air.

Whereas Noss was a documented career psycho, conman, liar, criminal and master grifter, I get the distinct impression that Willie was more of a wannabe camp follower - maybe even a Noss protege, or an acolyte of sorts. I also wonder if young and impressionable Willie (and Buster and others) might have been mesmerized by Doc (as many were) and enthusiastically done his bidding for him back in the day, including dirty work aimed at Doc's rivals in his gold schemes. It fits that possibly Willie was even involved in murder.

The story goes that, in a nutshell, Willie found a gold cave, bravely resisted being tortured to reveal its location, then left town. I wonder if instead he might have been given some gold by Noss as wages, then was targeted by the torturing rivals for information but had no information to give, became scared s%$#less about it, changed his name and vamoosed as far away as he could manage. As time passed in CA and the paranoia wore off (and maybe interest in the murders), he lived out his life quietly, marrying a seemingly capable woman. He kept his head down for decades until he surfaced again when the Noss legends made the news big time. Willie, then an old man who "was there" began drawing attention to himself with lots of stories, often conflicting, but a way to beat his chest. He was a likely a minor player back in the day (apparently), but my guess is that he had no idea where any gold was specifically hidden in the Caballos. Of course, the book he wrote opens a whole new can of worms about him, but we'll shelve that for the time being.

What about the gold? Yes, I suspect there is gold cached in the Caballos, possibly a significant amount We don't know where it came from, although I have my suspicions. We know that there is no proof that a "Padre LaRue" actually existed, and we know for a fact that the Pedro Navarez bandit loot was buried somewhere on his ranch in Chihuahua.

I suspect that Noss was in some way connected to at least some Caballo gold, which he used for seed at Victorio Peak. He scammed folks for years there before Charley Ryan blew out his candles. Since then, we've had a boatload of testimony from various people who swear the stories are all true because they "were there and saw it". Lots of sensational news coverage parroted those testimonies. Books. Videos. Affidavits. Lots of investment scams. However, have any of you seen any hard evidence, or proof of same? The only shred I've seen is the Noss "gold bars" assay report published in the Gold House trilogy. That assay revealed that the 40-pound bars Doc wanted to pawn off were 80% copper, containing a few ounces of gold and some silver. As I've speculated before, this sounds a great deal like the early ore recovered from the oxide zones by the Spanish at Santa Rita del Cobre in the early 1800s. These old copper alloys tended to tarnish in time to a dark patina.

Willie? Merely just another diversion from whatever truths are in the Caballos, IMO.

Yes, I have pictures of actual persons holding gold and silver bars found in the caballos, including the assay reports of said bars. And, one of the persons in the pictures is still alive and I talk to him often.
I also just today spent time with a person who helped carry the 28 gold bars (32 pounds each) out of the Drolte hole in 1975. No fiction. No bullshit. It happened. Pictures verify it, again with assay report. First person evidence says he did it. Assay reports of the gold. 55 percent pure says its real.
In my mind, this hard evidence proves that this one episode did happen. Maybe the 28 bars were planted as a "set up". But why? why dig a 120 foot deep hole in bedrock granite to plant a story about gold bars in the Caballos?
wr

 

[sdcfia]

Yes, I have pictures of actual persons holding gold and silver bars found in the caballos, including the assay reports of said bars. And, one of the persons in the pictures is still alive and I talk to him often.
I also just today spent time with a person who helped carry the 28 gold bars (32 pounds each) out of the Drolte hole in 1975. No fiction. No bullshit. It happened. Pictures verify it, again with assay report. First person evidence says he did it. Assay reports of the gold. 55 percent pure says its real.
In my mind, this hard evidence proves that this one episode did happen. Maybe the 28 bars were planted as a "set up". But why? why dig a 120 foot deep hole in bedrock granite to plant a story about gold bars in the Caballos?
wr

I can't comment on what evidence you've been shown - sounds interesting, hopefully it's the real deal. Your guy wasn't associated in any way with that Tesoro Alma dude who was recently convicted of investment fraud was he? Hope not. Anyway, does your discussion with the old guy help you in any way with the goals you've set for yourself in the Caballos?

 

[nmth]

Lots of certainty in the last few posts. Here's some things the unresolved may consider:

Padre LaRue does have a historical trail. That trail includes a very plausible reason for him to be shipped far, far away.

There's plenty of metal in the Caballos and Hillsboro etc etc. Not everything everywhere came from Silver City or PA. EL Cobre stuff went due south to Janos basically for all of recorded history, not over the Black Range.

There's more than one El Chato, and there's more than one Nevarez. The easy to research Nevarez is much newer than the original and was down in Babonollaba.

Nobody is the Jedi Archives here, and even those were wrong.

 

[sdcfia]

Lots of certainty in the last few posts. Here's some things the unresolved may consider:

Padre LaRue does have a historical trail. That trail includes a very plausible reason for him to be shipped far, far away.

There's plenty of metal in the Caballos and Hillsboro etc etc. Not everything everywhere came from Silver City or PA. EL Cobre stuff went due south to Janos basically for all of recorded history, not over the Black Range.

There's more than one El Chato, and there's more than one Nevarez. The easy to research Nevarez is much newer than the original and was down in Babonollaba.

Nobody is the Jedi Archives here, and even those were wrong.

Well, you've bitten off quite a chunk of food for thought. Fair enough - a good way to keep up interest in an otherwise waning thread. Of course, it's one thing to make claims re historical events, but it's quite another to provide facts that support them.

My claim: other than in treasure magazines, the internet, treasure investment brochures and assorted campfire legends, no documentation exists that one Padre LaRue - allegedly an exiled French Franciscan - was an historical real entity. Your claim: he did exist, came to New Mexico, found a fabulous gold mine and hid his riches in caves somewhere within the Soledad Peak/Caballo Range/Franklin Peak triangle. Obviously, I'm taking liberties here with your claim, since you never quite get to the point - but now is your chance.

My claim: the only documented assay we've seen re "gold bars" from the Noss era are a dead ringer match for early Santa Rita del Cobre ore - a mine, by the way, that continues to produce millions of pounds of copper per year. This mine is the only documented pre-18th century source of mined gold (mostly copper, really) in quantity from the region. Yes, we do have records to support that hundreds of thousands of pounds per year of this quality of ore were shipped straight to the coin mint in Chihuahua. Is it possible that some, maybe lots, went to the Rio Grande? Yes, of course, although there is no proof of it. Your claim: the "Caballo gold" originated in the Caballos, in the Hillsboro district, or maybe in the Organs, I guess. All these places, and many more in the region, had their short-lived fling with mining, as there is of metal in the ground all over the place. Generally, some good values were exploited in the near-surface lodes for a few years until the veins pinched out and folks moved on. Could there have been a secret bonanza that yielded thousands of gold bars that were hidden in the Caballos and "lost?" Yeah, sure, but you're going to have to flesh that out.

My claim: Pedro Navarez (El Chato) was a bandit who preyed on victims in Chihuahua MX, was caught and hung there, and hid some of his loot on the family ranch there. Anyone can find these historical facts for himself, if he really cares. Your claim: "original research" proves there was another Navarez/El Chato or two, apparently operating in the Caballo region. Well? ...

 

[UncleMatt]

Whiskey rat, such a hole dug through solid granite would still exist today. Does it? I am not aware of any such hole, but the old Smoke Hole has a 36" pipe installed in it that might be that deep. Videos of that are on youtube. Is that the hole you are referring to?

 

[UncleMatt]

I am with you sdcfi. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

 

[motel6.5]

If Padre La-Rue never existed,then where did mention of him show up to begin with.. My guess is it came from Doc Noss,if true about the story of him finding documents in a cave room,which he either burned,or stashed somewhere else.I don"t believe his name just appeared out of thin air, but I do not have the provenance to prove he existed.

 

[sdcfia]

If Padre La-Rue never existed,then where did mention of him show up to begin with.. My guess is it came from Doc Noss,if true about the story of him finding documents in a cave room,which he either burned,or stashed somewhere else.I don"t believe his name just appeared out of thin air, but I do not have the provenance to prove he existed.

That's a real good question, 6.5 - when was the first mention? Presumably nmth can tell us. I've looked before, and can't say for certain. If it originated with Noss, then there's a good chance that it did come out of thin air. Much of today's accepted treasure lore seemed to surface in the 1920s-1930s.

 

[Dirt1955]

I have researched this subject extensively. I thought I would get a hit by looking into the New Mexico Writers Project from the 1930s. A lot of history and great stories from the depression era, but nothing on Padre La Rue. Most of you from New Mexico know all of the source material for this story. I have come to the conclusion SDCFIA's assessment is correct. As a researcher, I would love to find documented proof but it just has not surfaced. Here are two reference documents for anyone interested in exploring this legend: (1) Book: "Seven was the Padres Number" written by Henry James. I have a first edition signed by Mr James dated 1973. Its a fictional story that has a historical background of the region. Check out his background, he grew up in the region. The book is available through AbeBooks on line (2) reference book: "New Mexico Geological Society, Las Cruces County, 1975; page 163-165, story by T.E.Kelly. Gives history time line of the story including actual claims filed in the area, a map indicating the location, mineral production numbers, and a probable conclusion. Also references. PM me if you would like a copy.

 

[nmth]

Well, you've bitten off quite a chunk of food for thought. Fair enough - a good way to keep up interest in an otherwise waning thread. Of course, it's one thing to make claims re historical events, but it's quite another to provide facts that support them.

My claim: other than in treasure magazines, the internet, treasure investment brochures and assorted campfire legends, no documentation exists that one Padre LaRue - allegedly an exiled French Franciscan - was an historical real entity. Your claim: he did exist, came to New Mexico, found a fabulous gold mine and hid his riches in caves somewhere within the Soledad Peak/Caballo Range/Franklin Peak triangle. Obviously, I'm taking liberties here with your claim, since you never quite get to the point - but now is your chance.

My claim: the only documented assay we've seen re "gold bars" from the Noss era are a dead ringer match for early Santa Rita del Cobre ore - a mine, by the way, that continues to produce millions of pounds of copper per year. This mine is the only documented pre-18th century source of mined gold (mostly copper, really) in quantity from the region. Yes, we do have records to support that hundreds of thousands of pounds per year of this quality of ore were shipped straight to the coin mint in Chihuahua. Is it possible that some, maybe lots, went to the Rio Grande? Yes, of course, although there is no proof of it. Your claim: the "Caballo gold" originated in the Caballos, in the Hillsboro district, or maybe in the Organs, I guess. All these places, and many more in the region, had their short-lived fling with mining, as there is of metal in the ground all over the place. Generally, some good values were exploited in the near-surface lodes for a few years until the veins pinched out and folks moved on. Could there have been a secret bonanza that yielded thousands of gold bars that were hidden in the Caballos and "lost?" Yeah, sure, but you're going to have to flesh that out.

My claim: Pedro Navarez (El Chato) was a bandit who preyed on victims in Chihuahua MX, was caught and hung there, and hid some of his loot on the family ranch there. Anyone can find these historical facts for himself, if he really cares. Your claim: "original research" proves there was another Navarez/El Chato or two, apparently operating in the Caballo region. Well? ...

Bud, you are really seeming a bit angry and personal here.

It saddens me, as I respect your research skills and the knowledge you DO seem to have.

Of course, there is knowledge and experience you DO NOT have. Unless your present slippery slope leads you to refute even this?

Please don't use me in your Sock Puppet Theatre Monologue approach to discourse like you have above.

You want to know my opinion? Please ask. Don't write your own version. That's not cool.

 

[nmth]

I am with you sdcfi. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Really, MY only claim (not those authored by the esteemed Steve-o himself) is that no-one here knows everything. Not too extraordinary. Or is it? WOW.

And, for those who don't think that anyone here has "Solved the Universe", then they might want to consider some counter-points to the absolutism of the recent posts. Yes, I have Circle K receipts that support these claims (not dug up by me, but by better and more patient and resourceful researchers). NO, I will not post them. As you may have seen elsewhere on T-Net, I DO post what I can/will, when I can/will. Like the recent and voluminous Lost Adams Newspaper stuff. The rest is, as I ACUTALLY said "...things the unresolved may consider:"

Some are content to ponder possibilities. Maybe it's just a personality thing. Being declared "right" is so two decades ago for me, personally. Not everyone else is in the same place.

I think you guys may be piling on me as a proxy to other tangles you've gotten into here... or at least I hope so.

I'd prefer to get along and share.

 

[nmth]

I have researched this subject extensively. I thought I would get a hit by looking into the New Mexico Writers Project from the 1930s. A lot of history and great stories from the depression era, but nothing on Padre La Rue. Most of you from New Mexico know all of the source material for this story. I have come to the conclusion SDCFIA's assessment is correct. As a researcher, I would love to find documented proof but it just has not surfaced. Here are two reference documents for anyone interested in exploring this legend: (1) Book: "Seven was the Padres Number" written by Henry James. I have a first edition signed by Mr James dated 1973. Its a fictional story that has a historical background of the region. Check out his background, he grew up in the region. The book is available through AbeBooks on line (2) reference book: "New Mexico Geological Society, Las Cruces County, 1975; page 163-165, story by T.E.Kelly. Gives history time line of the story including actual claims filed in the area, a map indicating the location, mineral production numbers, and a probable conclusion. Also references. PM me if you would like a copy.

Got to get to bed and get up for that pesky Job thing, but without reading your link yet, I'll go from memory here and throw out something presumably not too hard to find that may or may not go slightly farther back than this:

Its something like "Geology of the Organ Mountains". May be by Dunham. May also be "Geology of Dona Ana County". New Mexico Tech online is a good place to search. I am totally going off memory here. My hardcopy is elsewhere. Anyways, there is a forward that if I remember right says something about a possible LaRue place being at Spirit/Cox springs. Big ruins there. That's all I'll say on that...

Note this is NOT the origination point of LaRue in the harder to get papertrail I've been made aware of, more a fun anecdote to play with that I stumbled across myself.

I'll read your document later.

 

[sdcfia]

Bud, you are really seeming a bit angry and personal here.

It saddens me, as I respect your research skills and the knowledge you DO seem to have.

Of course, there is knowledge and experience you DO NOT have. Unless your present slippery slope leads you to refute even this?

Please don't use me in your Sock Puppet Theatre Monologue approach to discourse like you have above.

You want to know my opinion? Please ask. Don't write your own version. That's not cool.

Not angry, just tired of the usual “I’ve got a secret” innuendos that never seem to go anywhere. Don’t be sad - you seem to be well-informed, so inform us so that we don’t have to guess at what you’re hinting at.

I certainly don’t know all the answers - and never claimed to - but what I do know, or speculate, I make an effort to lay out clearly for what it’s worth to anyone. I like to provide facts if available, or at least a step-by-step logical argument. I also give exact coordinates to sites if possible, so that people can go find stuff and judge for themselves.

 

[Dirt1955]

Got to get to bed and get up for that pesky Job thing, but without reading your link yet, I'll go from memory here and throw out something presumably not too hard to find that may or may not go slightly farther back than this:

Its something like "Geology of the Organ Mountains". May be by Dunham. May also be "Geology of Dona Ana County". New Mexico Tech online is a good place to search. I am totally going off memory here. My hardcopy is elsewhere. Anyways, there is a forward that if I remember right says something about a possible LaRue place being at Spirit/Cox springs. Big ruins there. That's all I'll say on that...

Note this is NOT the origination point of LaRue in the harder to get papertrail I've been made aware of, more a fun anecdote to play with that I stumbled across myself.

I'll read your document later.

NMTH, I agree completely. New Mexico Tech on line is an excellent resource. I have several of their publications also.
I too remember reading the Spirit/Cox Springs location as a possible location for LaRue. I'll check my Willie D and LaRue file over the weekend to see what pops out at me. University archives and Local Historical Societies have been great sources of information for me for all treasure legends. I never discount any ones ideas or materials presented on this forum. The more leads I can add to my research, the greater possibility of adding a piece to the puzzle. Thanks for your response.

 

[UncleMatt]

My posts here are never intended to be offensive to anyone. My zeal for evidence is just a part of my personality, I am a natural skeptic.

I just made a new friend/contact in the Truth-or-Consequences area who has lived there for 71 years. He is going to be a great source for hopefully new information, which I will be happy to pass on here.

 

[BIGSCOTT]

Ah our old friend Henry James, I did not know he wrote that book, he is
hard to research because of the other critically aclaimed author Henry James 1843 - 1916
But yes he also wrote the earliest book on the Noss story '' Curse of the San Andres '' and yes he lived
in the area many years and worked as a mining engineer, and was quite Knowledgeable about the area.

His books are sometimes listed with the other Henry James.

 

[UncleMatt]

I rounded up a copy of Curse of the San Andreas to add to my research library. I was lucky enough to obtain a copy autographed by Henry James himself. While the author is quite skilled at spinning a narrative, there is not a single citation or reference in the book that allows any of the claims made from within to be verified. Some of the information, as is to be expected from a book written in the early 1950's, is now out of date and has been replaced with more factual information from other sources. Mention is made of official church documents and waybills, but they are not included in the book themselves, merely reference made to them. Of course the book was written in a different era when copy machines and digital cameras did not yet exist. Photos are included of churches in New Mexico and Old Mexico, but no document details from the research supposedly done in church archives is to be found. Henry paints a vivid picture of the deserts and mountains of New Mexico, which would do any tourism board proud. But as with most treasure tales, the choice to believe or not is left up to the reader in the end.

 

[motel6.5]

Is this factual/?-Tom Jolly gave a viedo interview to Terry Solleyman(spelling?),said he helped Doc Noss bury Gold bars, latter after Doc Noss was deceased, Didhe went back and unburied the bars and said he sold them to a gold mine.
1-If true why would he give this interview years latter?
2-Something does not add up here ?
3-Yet the interview is believible.
4-Did T.J.use Doc Noss as a cover of some sort?
4-

 

[sdcfia]

Is this factual/?-Tom Jolly gave a viedo interview to Terry Solleyman(spelling?),said he helped Doc Noss bury Gold bars, latter after Doc Noss was deceased, Didhe went back and unburied the bars and said he sold them to a gold mine.
1-If true why would he give this interview years latter?

If true, drawing attention to himself for admitting to felony tax fraud causes one to question his thinking, and therefore his reliability, eh? If not true, drawing attention to himself makes more sense - he's just full of it.