Whiskey Springs Maps

[cuzimloony]

Let's chat about all things Whiskey Springs (and surrounding area) in the Superstition Mountains. There are a number of maps with markings at Whiskey Springs or this area before it was named such (a Tom Kollenborn one is attached, the Barry Storm Wagoners map is another popular one) and also many stories, such as Jacob Waltz taking this route before turning around and threatening someone following him. Apparently there was a plane crash around here too.... Any and all discussion welcome.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A Handbook of Civil War Bullets and Cartridges - Grab it through Amazon!

[SPARTANOC]

Let's chat about all things Whiskey Springs (and surrounding area) in the Superstition Mountains. There are a number of maps with markings at Whiskey Springs or this area before it was named such (a Tom Kollenborn one is attached, the Barry Storm Wagoners map is another popular one) and also many stories, such as Jacob Waltz taking this route before turning around and threatening someone following him. Apparently there was a plane crash around here too.... Any and all discussion welcome. View attachment 2180717

Joe

In taking the time to ponder on this 'Julia map', it is strange. The layout of North isn't correct if you look at where Weaver's Needle is positioned at. I've never put any consideration in it as legit - as I have gone over this one and others - which have proved to be somewhat none sense and lead to nowhere. Of course - many believe this one and others DO lead to "something", but as far as I know - no one has shown any results using this or the other maps that are out there. I'm in the camp of thinking - this is why the stories of said legends never get solved. Hunters keep using them as if someone will finally see something in them, that no one else did at the time of using them. The whole going in circles thing, includes these maps. Markmar likes to fuel the mystique of some of these maps - as he keeps saying many of them are cypher maps. I think he's full of it to be honest.

That being said - I have a theory that the Wagoner's story and the Lost Dutchman story have similar elements - crossing over Geo locations of paths taken into the Supes. From everything I check out on these 2 stories - I keep finding myself coming to the same general areas.

I know many here on TN are completely convinced that there's nothing of value on the West side of the Supes - but I disagree with that assessment. Seeing that Tom supposedly picked up some of Senner's gold - near the area of Flatiron AND having discussions with a certain TH that seems to have found a good location of sorts - leads me to believe there ARE some valuables hidden back in those mountains, favoring the West side. I'm also in the camp of believing the West side does in fact have Gold occurring naturally within the volcanic rock that lines the West side. Everyone (at least most) want to hold to just the East side - as gold has been discovered on that side as most of us know.

When it comes to Waltz and the Wagoner - both were elderly and weakened by their own health issues. Both men (who may be the same guy), couldn't have been able to traverse quickly into those steep canyons, nor do I believe they did that on a daily or weekly basis. I believe they didn't go that far into the Mountain and I believe they favored either the South end or the West side of the Supes. Many want to believe the North end is of interest and in some past cases, it was, but Waltz and Wagoner wouldn't have taken the time to go all the way up North, just to head back down into the Supes - just to get on the South end leading to Florence (for the Wagoner). Jacob had a residence in what is now Phoenix I believe- so he too didn't really have to go a long route just to reach the Supes. Waltz supposedly was able to get in there and back within a day. The Wagoner seem to have been able to get around quickly - in and out supposedly.

What I WILL say about Whiskey Springs - is that there was some work done back there and there are caves as you know - that were utilized by some for various reasons. I also have a theory that the De Grazia Paintings could very well be hidden in that general area - as he was known to cover some of that area and surrounding locations (i.e. Rogers canyon).

Attached is a version of the Julia map that I've obtained.

Again - I don't put much into this map.

And then there's this one, a version of Julia's map supposedly from Waltz himself:

The map I DO put my interest in is the Waltz map (see below). No one is sure as to who created it - whether that was Waltz or Pertrash - but recently its been used and it has lead to an area of great interest. I can't name the TH as of right now - as it's his work and I have to respect his privacy.

That particular Hunter is absolutely convinced he's found something huge in value. I don't think anyone has figured this one out - but the guy who I've mentioned has or so it seems.

-Matt

 

[cuzimloony]

I'm going to give you a better, more thought out response to this in a bit (I'm got a bunch of work today), but before I forget....... on those maps you posted, what is LITTLE MAN, or LITTLE MEN, along the Whisky Springs area? There has to be a story there.....

 

[cuzimloony]

Joe

In taking the time to ponder on this 'Julia map', it is strange. The layout of North isn't correct if you look at where Weaver's Needle is positioned at. I've never put any consideration in it as legit - as I have gone over this one and others - which have proved to be somewhat none sense and lead to nowhere. Of course - many believe this one and others DO lead to "something", but as far as I know - no one has shown any results using this or the other maps that are out there. I'm in the camp of thinking - this is why the stories of said legends never get solved. Hunters keep using them as if someone will finally see something in them, that no one else did at the time of using them. The whole going in circles thing, includes these maps. Markmar likes to fuel the mystique of some of these maps - as he keeps saying many of them are cypher maps. I think he's full of it to be honest.

That being said - I have a theory that the Wagoner's story and the Lost Dutchman story have similar elements - crossing over Geo locations of paths taken into the Supes. From everything I check out on these 2 stories - I keep finding myself coming to the same general areas.

I know many here on TN are completely convinced that there's nothing of value on the West side of the Supes - but I disagree with that assessment. Seeing that Tom supposedly picked up some of Senner's gold - near the area of Flatiron AND having discussions with a certain TH that seems to have found a good location of sorts - leads me to believe there ARE some valuables hidden back in those mountains, favoring the West side. I'm also in the camp of believing the West side does in fact have Gold occurring naturally within the volcanic rock that lines the West side. Everyone (at least most) want to hold to just the East side - as gold has been discovered on that side as most of us know.

When it comes to Waltz and the Wagoner - both were elderly and weakened by their own health issues. Both men (who may be the same guy), couldn't have been able to traverse quickly into those steep canyons, nor do I believe they did that on a daily or weekly basis. I believe they didn't go that far into the Mountain and I believe they favored either the South end or the West side of the Supes. Many want to believe the North end is of interest and in some past cases, it was, but Waltz and Wagoner wouldn't have taken the time to go all the way up North, just to head back down into the Supes - just to get on the South end leading to Florence (for the Wagoner). Jacob had a residence in what is now Phoenix I believe- so he too didn't really have to go a long route just to reach the Supes. Waltz supposedly was able to get in there and back within a day. The Wagoner seem to have been able to get around quickly - in and out supposedly.

What I WILL say about Whiskey Springs - is that there was some work done back there and there are caves as you know - that were utilized by some for various reasons. I also have a theory that the De Grazia Paintings could very well be hidden in that general area - as he was known to cover some of that area and surrounding locations (i.e. Rogers canyon).

Attached is a version of the Julia map that I've obtained.

View attachment 2180738

Again - I don't put much into this map.

And then there's this one, a version of Julia's map supposedly from Waltz himself:

View attachment 2180747



The map I DO put my interest in is the Waltz map (see below). No one is sure as to who created it - whether that was Waltz or Pertrash - but recently its been used and it has lead to an area of great interest. I can't name the TH as of right now - as it's his work and I have to respect his privacy.

View attachment 2180749

That particular Hunter is absolutely convinced he's found something huge in value. I don't think anyone has figured this one out - but the guy who I've mentioned has or so it seems.

-Matt

Ok....about the north layout on the Kollenborn (Julia) map: I don't see an issue with the north arrow. It seems, to me at least, you could put that north arrow anywhere on the map and as long as it's pointing the same direction that it's pointed currently, it's pointing north. I personally do believe in cypher maps, but not in generally in the Superstitions. If we were talking KGC or some sort of Masonic system, I believe cyphers are absolutely used. That said, none of what we have posted fit that category to me....so I'm with you, these aren't cypher maps.
About the Wagoners and Dutchman connections, I'll say this: I think the ACTUAL in REALITY Wagoners story has nothing to do with the Dutchman. BUT, for the sake of argument, the maps produced by Barry and Tom DO point to this area, whether fraudulently or not.
About Senner....his gold wasn't from the Superstitions. He just HID it here. That said....I've been up the flatiron and there are approximately 7,3425,768 crags and nooks to hide something. It would be very easy to hide some satchels in there.
About Waltz coming in to the mountains. I am not positive about this, but if he was really 81 years old (please correct me if I'm wrong about his age), he's not even leaving the trailhead if he's on foot(video coming). He would trip and stumble all over the place just trying to get over the first hill leaving Peralta. If not the first one, then the second or 5th. He might have been able to get to Phoenix to Peralta road, and then down Peralta Road to the end, which is where the trail begins, but no way is he hiking that trail (opinion). And if the Mexican girl story is true, that means Jacob entered the mountains behind Miner's Needle, which an elderly man isn't doing even if he did manage to get the from the trailhead (video coming). It's very steep, loose rocks and slippery. However, when the entire town of Apache Junction needs this story to survive in order for they themselves to survive, it just needs to be true....right Loch Ness This is clearly a theory, however, but.....as I continue to hike the Sups, Im beginning to doubt ANY story of elderly walkers coming in to the Sups alone if they don't have horses to carry them (not their gear, but them). Tom Kollenborn even said the hike to Whisky Springs from Miner's Needle was strenuous, and he did it when he was young. I can't imagine an elderly man doing it. That said, I could be and am probably wrong, so I'm down to entertain the ideas and investigate them as I do.
About the DeGrazia paintings......do you think Bob Ward might've got those? He did know where they were.......
About your Waltz map..... I read a very good discussion about that on here the other day. Someone was explaining how one part is a "zoomed in" version of the other part, with GE pictures and all, but I don't remember a whole-heck-of-a-lot about what was said.... Interesting. He seemed convinced. Pic enclosed is of Flatiron and you can see some of the crags in the back.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Ok....about the north layout on the Kollenborn (Julia) map: I don't see an issue with the north arrow. It seems, to me at least, you could put that north arrow anywhere on the map and as long as it's pointing the same direction that it's pointed currently, it's pointing north. I personally do believe in cypher maps, but not in generally in the Superstitions. If we were talking KGC or some sort of Masonic system, I believe cyphers are absolutely used. That said, none of what we have posted fit that category to me....so I'm with you, these aren't cypher maps.
About the Wagoners and Dutchman connections, I'll say this: I think the ACTUAL in REALITY Wagoners story has nothing to do with the Dutchman. BUT, for the sake of argument, the maps produced by Barry and Tom DO point to this area, whether fraudulently or not.
About Senner....his gold wasn't from the Superstitions. He just HID it here. That said....I've been up the flatiron and there are approximately 7,3425,768 crags and nooks to hide something. It would be very easy to hide some satchels in there.
About Waltz coming in to the mountains. I am not positive about this, but if he was really 81 years old (please correct me if I'm wrong about his age), he's not even leaving the trailhead if he's on foot(video coming). He would trip and stumble all over the place just trying to get over the first hill leaving Peralta. If not the first one, then the second or 5th. He might have been able to get to Phoenix to Peralta road, and then down Peralta Road to the end, which is where the trail begins, but no way is he hiking that trail (opinion). And if the Mexican girl story is true, that means Jacob entered the mountains behind Miner's Needle, which an elderly man isn't doing even if he did manage to get the from the trailhead (video coming). It's very steep, loose rocks and slippery. However, when the entire town of Apache Junction needs this story to survive in order for they themselves to survive, it just needs to be true....right Loch Ness This is clearly a theory, however, but.....as I continue to hike the Sups, Im beginning to doubt ANY story of elderly walkers coming in to the Sups alone if they don't have horses to carry them (not their gear, but them). Tom Kollenborn even said the hike to Whisky Springs from Miner's Needle was strenuous, and he did it when he was young. I can't imagine an elderly man doing it. That said, I could be and am probably wrong, so I'm down to entertain the ideas and investigate them as I do.
About the DeGrazia paintings......do you think Bob Ward might've got those? He did know where they were.......
About your Waltz map..... I read a very good discussion about that on here the other day. Someone was explaining how one part is a "zoomed in" version of the other part, with GE pictures and all, but I don't remember a whole-heck-of-a-lot about what was said.... Interesting. He seemed convinced. Pic enclosed is of Flatiron and you can see some of the crags in the back.
View attachment 2180757

Joe

Is this thread just you and I? Or is it opened to the public?

-Matt

 

[cuzimloony]

Joe

Is this thread just you and I? Or is it opened to the public?

-Matt

Open to the whole world brother . Totally public!

 

[SPARTANOC]

Joe

Check this out. A TN user just informed about this, this morning.

Watch the podcast and at the end - it talks of a bronze canon that was found in Arizona, Spanish in origin. Possibly Coronado's.

Fox 10 Phnx

 

[cuzimloony]

Joe

Check this out. A TN user just informed about this, this morning.

Watch the podcast and at the end - it talks of a bronze canon that was found in Arizona, Spanish in origin. Possibly Coronado's.

Fox 10 Phnx

Watching now........

 

[SPARTANOC]

I don't think Bob Ward found ALL of De Grazia's paintings. He knew of several - but De Grazia was known to go out alone in different places - to hid those gems he painted.

I believe there are still more to find. Even Wayne believes there are more out there - and I tend to believe him most of the time.

 

[Geoffnotjeff]

Ok....about the north layout on the Kollenborn (Julia) map: I don't see an issue with the north arrow. It seems, to me at least, you could put that north arrow anywhere on the map and as long as it's pointing the same direction that it's pointed currently, it's pointing north. I personally do believe in cypher maps, but not in generally in the Superstitions. If we were talking KGC or some sort of Masonic system, I believe cyphers are absolutely used. That said, none of what we have posted fit that category to me....so I'm with you, these aren't cypher maps.
About the Wagoners and Dutchman connections, I'll say this: I think the ACTUAL in REALITY Wagoners story has nothing to do with the Dutchman. BUT, for the sake of argument, the maps produced by Barry and Tom DO point to this area, whether fraudulently or not.
About Senner....his gold wasn't from the Superstitions. He just HID it here. That said....I've been up the flatiron and there are approximately 7,3425,768 crags and nooks to hide something. It would be very easy to hide some satchels in there.
About Waltz coming in to the mountains. I am not positive about this, but if he was really 81 years old (please correct me if I'm wrong about his age), he's not even leaving the trailhead if he's on foot(video coming). He would trip and stumble all over the place just trying to get over the first hill leaving Peralta. If not the first one, then the second or 5th. He might have been able to get to Phoenix to Peralta road, and then down Peralta Road to the end, which is where the trail begins, but no way is he hiking that trail (opinion). And if the Mexican girl story is true, that means Jacob entered the mountains behind Miner's Needle, which an elderly man isn't doing even if he did manage to get the from the trailhead (video coming). It's very steep, loose rocks and slippery. However, when the entire town of Apache Junction needs this story to survive in order for they themselves to survive, it just needs to be true....right Loch Ness This is clearly a theory, however, but.....as I continue to hike the Sups, Im beginning to doubt ANY story of elderly walkers coming in to the Sups alone if they don't have horses to carry them (not their gear, but them). Tom Kollenborn even said the hike to Whisky Springs from Miner's Needle was strenuous, and he did it when he was young. I can't imagine an elderly man doing it. That said, I could be and am probably wrong, so I'm down to entertain the ideas and investigate them as I do.
About the DeGrazia paintings......do you think Bob Ward might've got those? He did know where they were.......
About your Waltz map..... I read a very good discussion about that on here the other day. Someone was explaining how one part is a "zoomed in" version of the other part, with GE pictures and all, but I don't remember a whole-heck-of-a-lot about what was said.... Interesting. He seemed convinced. Pic enclosed is of Flatiron and you can see some of the crags in the back.
View attachment 2180757

There is a lot of talk about how old men in the 1800's couldn't handle surviving/hiking/being in the mountains.

People are tough. I know 80yr olds who dont need any equipment to hike and camp outside. I recently complete a 17 mile hike with a large group which included a few 75+. Elevation gain that blows anything in the supes out of the water. 14 hours for the slowest.

People who lived their entire lives working physical labor, especially outdoors, are really tough if they make it to those ages. The weather doesnt bother them as much and the clothes they had were more than capable of keeping them going.

Also, just curious, what trails would they not be able to get off? People didnt hike in those days for enjoyment. Waltz timeline, there were no cowboys in the ranges yet, no cattle, you had amerindians, rare soliders, rare prospectors, and miners moving into the east end in the very late 1800's. Why do you think a trail would have stood out to them if they came across one? Because there werent many.

 

[markmar]

Joe

In taking the time to ponder on this 'Julia map', it is strange. The layout of North isn't correct if you look at where Weaver's Needle is positioned at. I've never put any consideration in it as legit - as I have gone over this one and others - which have proved to be somewhat none sense and lead to nowhere. Of course - many believe this one and others DO lead to "something", but as far as I know - no one has shown any results using this or the other maps that are out there. I'm in the camp of thinking - this is why the stories of said legends never get solved. Hunters keep using them as if someone will finally see something in them, that no one else did at the time of using them. The whole going in circles thing, includes these maps. Markmar likes to fuel the mystique of some of these maps - as he keeps saying many of them are cypher maps. I think he's full of it to be honest.

That being said - I have a theory that the Wagoner's story and the Lost Dutchman story have similar elements - crossing over Geo locations of paths taken into the Supes. From everything I check out on these 2 stories - I keep finding myself coming to the same general areas.

I know many here on TN are completely convinced that there's nothing of value on the West side of the Supes - but I disagree with that assessment. Seeing that Tom supposedly picked up some of Senner's gold - near the area of Flatiron AND having discussions with a certain TH that seems to have found a good location of sorts - leads me to believe there ARE some valuables hidden back in those mountains, favoring the West side. I'm also in the camp of believing the West side does in fact have Gold occurring naturally within the volcanic rock that lines the West side. Everyone (at least most) want to hold to just the East side - as gold has been discovered on that side as most of us know.

When it comes to Waltz and the Wagoner - both were elderly and weakened by their own health issues. Both men (who may be the same guy), couldn't have been able to traverse quickly into those steep canyons, nor do I believe they did that on a daily or weekly basis. I believe they didn't go that far into the Mountain and I believe they favored either the South end or the West side of the Supes. Many want to believe the North end is of interest and in some past cases, it was, but Waltz and Wagoner wouldn't have taken the time to go all the way up North, just to head back down into the Supes - just to get on the South end leading to Florence (for the Wagoner). Jacob had a residence in what is now Phoenix I believe- so he too didn't really have to go a long route just to reach the Supes. Waltz supposedly was able to get in there and back within a day. The Wagoner seem to have been able to get around quickly - in and out supposedly.

What I WILL say about Whiskey Springs - is that there was some work done back there and there are caves as you know - that were utilized by some for various reasons. I also have a theory that the De Grazia Paintings could very well be hidden in that general area - as he was known to cover some of that area and surrounding locations (i.e. Rogers canyon).

Attached is a version of the Julia map that I've obtained.

View attachment 2180738

Again - I don't put much into this map.

And then there's this one, a version of Julia's map supposedly from Waltz himself:

View attachment 2180747



The map I DO put my interest in is the Waltz map (see below). No one is sure as to who created it - whether that was Waltz or Pertrash - but recently its been used and it has lead to an area of great interest. I can't name the TH as of right now - as it's his work and I have to respect his privacy.

View attachment 2180749

That particular Hunter is absolutely convinced he's found something huge in value. I don't think anyone has figured this one out - but the guy who I've mentioned has or so it seems.

-Matt

Julia's map ( Robert Blair edition ) is the most acceptable map as a bibliotech of clues related to the LDM. Just to keep in your mind, these clues are randomly depicted on the map, like Julia has reminded from Waltz description of the LDM region., and the distances between these clues are not real. All the clues are for a region about half mile square close to the mine and at the place " ORE HERE " depicted in the map. The orientation in relation with WN is almost correct.
The clues are oriented like this:
- the APACHE CAMP and the round rock formations, are in the saddle above the mine.
- the HORSE HEAD is on the hill which is between the saddle and the mine, and could be seen from the mine in the skyline. Look at my avatar which shows the rampant horse head in the skyline, like Apache Jack stated.
- the LITTLE MAN is a small rock structure which looks like a man's face and is across a small ravine the south from the hill.
- the THREE PINES are below the LITTLE MAN, close to the seep spring in the main canyon.
- the CAVE is the Waltz camp across the ravine from the mine and across another ravine from the THREE PINES. So between the THREE PINES- LITTLE MAN line and the LDM, are two small ravines.

Whiskey Spring region has nothing to do with the Julia's map concept, as you have understood.

 

[cuzimloony]

There is a lot of talk about how old men in the 1800's couldn't handle surviving/hiking/being in the mountains.

People are tough. I know 80yr olds who dont need any equipment to hike and camp outside. I recently complete a 17 mile hike with a large group which included a few 75+. Elevation gain that blows anything in the supes out of the water. 14 hours for the slowest.

People who lived their entire lives working physical labor, especially outdoors, are really tough if they make it to those ages. The weather doesnt bother them as much and the clothes they had were more than capable of keeping them going.

Also, just curious, what trails would they not be able to get off? People didnt hike in those days for enjoyment. Waltz timeline, there were no cowboys in the ranges yet, no cattle, you had amerindians, rare soliders, rare prospectors, and miners moving into the east end in the very late 1800's. Why do you think a trail would have stood out to them if they came across one? Because there werent many.

The whole story of the Wagoner is that he hiked for enjoyment. That's the whole point. He wasn't a prospector. He was just a hiker. It also seems you are saying that kind of thing doesn't happen back then? I don't know. Maybe it didn't, which would help my argument that he didn't do this. You are totally free to disagree. I posted about 1/3 of the trip on the way out of Wisky Springs, the supposed Waltz/Wagoner route, for all to see and anyone can watch and judge for themselves. I've personally never met a man in his 70's who didn't walk a bit slower and have to "take his time" to do some things. I've never met a man in his 80's who didn't need help getting in and out of a car, let alone hike up a mountain. Maybe we just know different people. Imagine being 81 and having to squat to sh*t with nothing but rocks surrounded by thorn bushes to hold on to. Did it happen? Maybe. Did you read the Wagoner story? Apparently this dude brought 1, maybe 2 suitcases with him too so, age aside, there are many problems with that story in particular and I'm just pointing out age as the first red flag, and it is.
"Why do I think a trail would have stood out to them if they came across one?" I don't know how to answer that. If you read the story, it says he took this trail. I'm just going with that......

 

[Geoffnotjeff]

I was saying people didnt hike for enjoyment back then. They didnt. A person may have, sure, but not like today when people (plural) do for enjoyment.

"About Waltz coming in to the mountains. I am not positive about this, but if he was really 81 years old (please correct me if I'm wrong about his age), he's not even leaving the trailhead if he's on foot(video coming). He would trip and stumble all over the place just trying to get over the first hill leaving Peralta. If not the first one, then the second or 5th. He might have been able to get to Phoenix to Peralta road, and then down Peralta Road to the end, which is where the trail begins, but no way is he hiking that trail (opinion)."

I was referencing this for trails.

Mountains change frequently based on usage. You can read quite a few accounts of the landscapers being very different when cattle roamed, it was different before them, it was different after fires, earthquakes, its different now. Just makes it hard to compare.

 

[markmar]

Ok....about the north layout on the Kollenborn (Julia) map: I don't see an issue with the north arrow. It seems, to me at least, you could put that north arrow anywhere on the map and as long as it's pointing the same direction that it's pointed currently, it's pointing north. I personally do believe in cypher maps, but not in generally in the Superstitions. If we were talking KGC or some sort of Masonic system, I believe cyphers are absolutely used. That said, none of what we have posted fit that category to me....so I'm with you, these aren't cypher maps.
About the Wagoners and Dutchman connections, I'll say this: I think the ACTUAL in REALITY Wagoners story has nothing to do with the Dutchman. BUT, for the sake of argument, the maps produced by Barry and Tom DO point to this area, whether fraudulently or not.
About Senner....his gold wasn't from the Superstitions. He just HID it here. That said....I've been up the flatiron and there are approximately 7,3425,768 crags and nooks to hide something. It would be very easy to hide some satchels in there.
About Waltz coming in to the mountains. I am not positive about this, but if he was really 81 years old (please correct me if I'm wrong about his age), he's not even leaving the trailhead if he's on foot(video coming). He would trip and stumble all over the place just trying to get over the first hill leaving Peralta. If not the first one, then the second or 5th. He might have been able to get to Phoenix to Peralta road, and then down Peralta Road to the end, which is where the trail begins, but no way is he hiking that trail (opinion). And if the Mexican girl story is true, that means Jacob entered the mountains behind Miner's Needle, which an elderly man isn't doing even if he did manage to get the from the trailhead (video coming). It's very steep, loose rocks and slippery. However, when the entire town of Apache Junction needs this story to survive in order for they themselves to survive, it just needs to be true....right Loch Ness This is clearly a theory, however, but.....as I continue to hike the Sups, Im beginning to doubt ANY story of elderly walkers coming in to the Sups alone if they don't have horses to carry them (not their gear, but them). Tom Kollenborn even said the hike to Whisky Springs from Miner's Needle was strenuous, and he did it when he was young. I can't imagine an elderly man doing it. That said, I could be and am probably wrong, so I'm down to entertain the ideas and investigate them as I do.
About the DeGrazia paintings......do you think Bob Ward might've got those? He did know where they were.......
About your Waltz map..... I read a very good discussion about that on here the other day. Someone was explaining how one part is a "zoomed in" version of the other part, with GE pictures and all, but I don't remember a whole-heck-of-a-lot about what was said.... Interesting. He seemed convinced. Pic enclosed is of Flatiron and you can see some of the crags in the back.
View attachment 2180757

Waltz was riding a mule and Tom was riding a horse.
I don't believe Tom has ever hiked on foot that route you have mentioned. Maybe he walked few yards from his horse if would be necessary.

 

[cuzimloony]

I don't think Bob Ward found ALL of De Grazia's paintings. He knew of several - but De Grazia was known to go out alone in different places - to hid those gems he painted.

I believe there are still more to find. Even Wayne believes there are more out there - and I tend to believe him most of the time.

According to Bob, Bob himself dug the pit and made the map.

 

[cuzimloony]

I was saying people didnt hike for enjoyment back then. They didnt. A person may have, sure, but not like today when people (plural) do for enjoyment.

"About Waltz coming in to the mountains. I am not positive about this, but if he was really 81 years old (please correct me if I'm wrong about his age), he's not even leaving the trailhead if he's on foot(video coming). He would trip and stumble all over the place just trying to get over the first hill leaving Peralta. If not the first one, then the second or 5th. He might have been able to get to Phoenix to Peralta road, and then down Peralta Road to the end, which is where the trail begins, but no way is he hiking that trail (opinion)."

I was referencing this for trails.

Mountains change frequently based on usage. You can read quite a few accounts of the landscapers being very different when cattle roamed, it was different before them, it was different after fires, earthquakes, its different now. Just makes it hard to compare.

Ok, so maybe the route changed a little and moved over a few feet or 20 yards. Im cool with that idea.
The route that the Dutchman supposedly took, according to the Mexican girl, IS literally from peralta to Miners Needle, up behind Miners Needle and on down through Whiskey Springs as stated by HER. Maybe the trail was impossible to see back then like you say, which would make this trip even more unlikely. Thanks for agreeing?

 

[cuzimloony]

Waltz was riding a mule and Tom was riding a horse.
I don't believe Tom has ever hiked on foot that route you have mentioned. Maybe he walked few yards from his horse if would be necessary.

Tom was not riding a horse. Go back and read his book again.
And Waltz didn't ride a mule. It carried his gear. Or did the mule do both?
"I was exhausted from this strenuous HIKE." - Tom Kollenborn
So....but to your point, if Tom RODE A HORSE and was exhausted, imagine an 81 year old.......

 

[SPARTANOC]

I was saying people didnt hike for enjoyment back then. They didnt. A person may have, sure, but not like today when people (plural) do for enjoyment.

"About Waltz coming in to the mountains. I am not positive about this, but if he was really 81 years old (please correct me if I'm wrong about his age), he's not even leaving the trailhead if he's on foot(video coming). He would trip and stumble all over the place just trying to get over the first hill leaving Peralta. If not the first one, then the second or 5th. He might have been able to get to Phoenix to Peralta road, and then down Peralta Road to the end, which is where the trail begins, but no way is he hiking that trail (opinion)."

I was referencing this for trails.

Mountains change frequently based on usage. You can read quite a few accounts of the landscapers being very different when cattle roamed, it was different before them, it was different after fires, earthquakes, its different now. Just makes it hard to compare.

I will say this. My Mom is 86 and teaches Tai Chi and Chi Gong - works part time and takes walks every morning. Could she actually hike into the Supes - NO WAY. She's tough, but those trails, canyons and ravines would tear her up, just trying to walk a mile. I do know those back then were tough as nails compared to people today. And as tough as my mom is, any kind of hike in those mountains at any time of the year, would 'kick her' dead to be honest.

Just hiking the Hackberry Trailhead Loop this last October - almost wiped out my wife, as she downed 3 liters of water within 2/3 of the hike and she suffered Heat Stroke and we almost didn't get her out of there, and she's 51. We finally got out all while the temps were at 110°. It just happened to be the hottest 2 days ever recorded for Arizona for an October. So, to think that an old man regardless of knowing the terrain or not - getting in there and out with no issues, is so hard to believe.

 

[cuzimloony]

I will say this. My Mom is 86 and teaches Tai Chi and Chi Gong - works part time and takes walks every morning. Could she actually hike into the Supes - NO WAY. She's tough, but those trails, canyons and ravines would tear her up, just trying to walk a mile. I do know those back then were tough as nails compared to people today. And as tough as my mom is, any kind of hike in those mountains at any time of the year, would 'kick her' dead to be honest.

Just hiking the Hackberry Trailhead Loop this last October - almost wiped out my wife, as she downed 3 liters of water within 2/3 of the hike and she suffered Heat Stroke and we almost didn't get her out of there, and she's 51. We finally got out all while the temps were at 110°. It just happened to be the hottest 2 days ever recorded for Arizona for an October. So, to think that an old man regardless of knowing the terrain or not - getting in there and out with no issues, is so hard to believe.

Ha! Yeah my wife had a hard time the other day at Treasure Loop, which is almost for kids. Lol
Im also having a bit of a hard time sith the idea that "people who work hard and beat up their bodies their whole lives are better off physically than everyone else." Maybe for some that's true. But for most I'd say, if you work with your hand your whole life, you have carpal tunnel by 50, so on and so forth... Stuff begins to break down faster, not slower, if you are a mine worker your whole life. No?

 

[SPARTANOC]

According to Bob, Bob himself dug the pit and made the map.
View attachment 2180763
View attachment 2180764
View attachment 2180765

I have that book. The key to that map (shown in the book) - is a map that goes with another map conjoined. I believe Wayne Tuttle figured that out - and is still looking out there for any remains of said paintings.