Whiskey Springs Maps

[markmar]

Tom was not riding a horse. Go back and read his book again.
And Waltz didn't ride a mule. It carried his gear. Or did the mule do both?
"I was exhausted from this strenuous HIKE." - Tom Kollenborn
So....but to your point, if Tom RODE A HORSE and was exhausted, imagine an 81 year old.......

Waltz was about 72 years old when visited last time his mine.

 

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[SPARTANOC]

Ha! Yeah my wife had a hard time the other day at Treasure Loop, which is almost for kids. Lol
Im also having a bit of a hard time sith the idea that "people who work hard and beat up their bodies their whole lives are better off physically than everyone else." Maybe for some that's true. But for most I'd say, if you work with your hand your whole life, you have carpal tunnel by 50, so on and so forth... Stuff begins to break down faster, not slower, if you are a mine worker your whole life. No?

Yes, I concur. I have a bit of carpal tunnel just from typing all these years. 🤣 Let-alone digging and prospecting...

 

[SPARTANOC]

Waltz was about 72 years old when visited last time his mine.

Waltz died at 81, in October 25, 1891. He was known to have been out there just before he got sick that year of the flood.

 

[cuzimloony]

I have that book. The key to that map (shown in the book) - is a map that goes with another map conjoined. I believe Wayne Tuttle figured that out - and is still looking out there for any remains of said paintings.

We all have to keep searching for something....... Im in! Lol
Why do you say Whiskey Springs area?

 

[cuzimloony]

Waltz was about 72 years old when visited last time his mine.

Thanks for that. I dont know where I got 81..........

 

[markmar]

Waltz died at 81, in October 25, 1891. He was known to have been out there just before he got sick that year of the flood.

No, this is not true. Eight years have passed since he was at the mine when died.

 

[cuzimloony]

No, this is not true. Eight years have passed since he was at the mine when died.

I got it here, but I don't know where Bob Brewer got this from:

So he was 81 on his deathbed, not at the mine. Thanks for clearing that up.
Even 70's is pushing it out here though. I dont think many, if any, 70+ year old are coming out here. 60's...... maybe.

 

[SPARTANOC]

No, this is not true. Eight years have passed since he was at the mine when died.

And where exactly did you read that, from? Or whom did you get that info from?

As far as I know - Waltz was out there the year before he actually got sick.

 

[cuzimloony]

Wait a minute, I may have to reassess. RFK, Robert F Kennedy, is 70. So, if Jacob Waltz looked like this:

I might buy it.

 

[markmar]

And where exactly did you read that, from? Or whom did you get that info from?

As far as I know - Waltz was out there the year before he actually got sick.

I believe Bark's notes have it.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Wait a minute, I may have to reassess. RFK, Robert F Kennedy, is 70. So, if Jacob Waltz looked like this:
View attachment 2180769
I might buy it.

Even RFK would have an issue getting out there, walking up and down canyons and ravines.

It doesn't matter how bulked up someone is - the heat index with very little water, would kill anyone who dared to go out there...

 

[markmar]

I have that book. The key to that map (shown in the book) - is a map that goes with another map conjoined. I believe Wayne Tuttle figured that out - and is still looking out there for any remains of said paintings.

Just to make clear some details, in regards with what Wayne has figured out on the DeGrazia paintings.
Some time ago I saw Wayne videos in trying to figure out a Bob Ward map. I contacted him with a message on his FB account, and I gave him all the hidden meanings "( locations and distances ) from the map shown in the book, and a description of the cave where the paintings and another set of stone tablets were buried.
He did't say a " thanks ", but the next video he aired was of some vintage coins he found close to the said spot. Ask him about my name ( Marius Marc... ) if you have any doubt.
Isn't nice to get titles earned on others shoulders. Frank mocked me here by calling me with another name, maybe he was not aware who I was in reality.

 

[Geoffnotjeff]

Even RFK would have an issue getting out there, walking up and down canyons and ravines.

It doesn't matter how bulked up someone is - the heat index with very little water, would kill anyone who dared to go out there...

There is a big difference between gym fit and real world fit. People who do physical labor outside for decades are incredibly tough. Its easy to say that would break them, but i disagree heartily. It breaks some for sure, but the ones that keep going, as Waltz did, they dont break. The big crackers falling through the sleeve.

I know a lot of people like that. They usually don't look gym fit. Usually lean and wiry. There are 70year olds who post on this forum who make harder hikes into the mountains today, at speed, without issue.

If its hard for me, it must have been impossible for others! - Very dangerous line of thought, and i see it happening, right here.

If Waltz was still mining at 71 i would assume he was tough as nails. Some people aren't phased by the heat. According to your logic personally i should be dead. People are different.

 

[cuzimloony]

There is a big difference between gym fit and real world fit. People who do physical labor outside for decades are incredibly tough. Its easy to say that would break them, but i disagree heartily. It breaks some for sure, but the ones that keep going, as Waltz did, they dont break. The big crackers falling through the sleeve.

I know a lot of people like that. They usually don't look gym fit. Usually lean and wiry. There are 70year olds who post on this forum who make harder hikes into the mountains today, at speed, without issue.

If its hard for me, it must have been impossible for others! - Very dangerous line of thought, and i see it happening, right here.

If Waltz was still mining at 71 i would assume he was tough as nails. Some people aren't phased by the heat. According to your logic personally i should be dead. People are different.

I dont believe he was mining at 71. He might have been walking around with a mule, but thats about it. He surely didn't walk Peralta, over those hills to Miners Needle, up the back of it, down Whisky Canyon, mine somewhere down there, and then pack it out. Just my opinion, obviously, but I just walked that route, that exact route which now has well established trails, Im half that age, almost, and I needed a few days to recover. I, I assure you, am in much better shape than a lifelong miner who is in his 70's. I dont think he did it, well, I should say, I don't think he did it as described by the Mexican girl who said he took that route. I just did it and based on my own experience on that very route, Im pretty sure its a fanciful story. A yarn....
Old timers surely were a different breed, but man.....this is a hard sell. I'll walk it again soon and see if I reevaluate. I might, but after my in and out a couple weeks ago, and knowing the effort I put in to being healthy and fit, then imagining a 70-something doing it? Man.., I just....... I dont know.
And if you say "If its hard for me, it must have been impossible for others!" in big bold letters is somehow "dangerous", all I can say is, try it. Do the hike. Im curious what you have to say afterward. Just dont yell if you disagree, if you haven't done the hike. Ive done the exact hike and formed an opinion. I have actually Walked Waltz's supposed route. Thats kinda cool. And Im allowed to say say afterward...... Waltz didn't do this. Lol. It's obvious now.

 

[Geoffnotjeff]

I dont believe he was mining at 71. He might have been walking around with a mule, but thats about it. He surely didn't walk Peralta, over those hills to Miners Needle, up the back of it, down Whisky Canyon, then mined somewhere down there, and then packed it out. Just my opinion, obviously, but I just walked that route, that exact route with well established trails, Im half that age, almost, and I needed a few days to recover. I, I assure you, am in much better shape than a lifelong miner who is in his 70's. I dont think he did it, well, I should say, I don't think he did it as described by the Mexican girl who said he took that route. I just did it and based on my own experience on that very route, Im pretty sure its a fanciful story. A yarn....

I get it, and respect that that is your opinion. I have a very different one. We are exactly the same age. I have hiked longer and off trail in hotter conditions and been totally fine, like i said people are different.

I dont see any issue with a man who lived a hard life and worked a had life being capable of that, at that age. Again, there are litteraly 70 yr olds on this forum who can do that, and do.

Have you read the hike Al morrow completed for his 80th birthday?

Leaves the quarter circle U ranch at 8:50
Bluff springs at 11:05
La barge springs by 12:35
Music canyon 12:47 - Spent some time at an old campsite of his
Charleboi spring 1:12
Back at the ranch 6:10pm

Thats starting well before the current peralta trail head and going further. To be fair he was a legendary mover in the mountains, but who would know if waltz was or wasnt.

I dont think that was Waltz's path either, but there is proof its doable at that age and older.

 

[cuzimloony]

I get it, and respect that that is your opinion. I have a very different one. We are exactly the same age. I have hiked longer and off trail in hotter conditions and been totally fine, like i said people are different.

I dont see any issue with a man who lived a hard life and worked a had life being capable of that, at that age. Again, there are litteraly 70 yr olds on this forum who can do that, and do.

Have you read the hike Al morrow completed for his 80th birthday?

Leaves the quarter circle U ranch at 8:50
Bluff springs at 11:05
La barge springs by 12:35
Music canyon 12:47 - Spent some time at an old campsite of his
Charleboi spring 1:12
Back at the ranch 6:10pm

Thats starting well before the current peralta trail head and going further. To be fair he was a legendary mover in the mountains, but who would know if waltz was or wasnt.

I dont think that was Waltz's path either, but there is proof its doable at that age and older.

I know.....everyone is a super hiker at 70 after theyve worked manual labor their whole lives. Thats the norm eh...... super fit elderly people.
Hard sell...... but you can believe it if you want Im not mad!

Is that hike on video? Id like to see that. It took me 4 hours from Peralta to almost Trap springs. I was traveling super light, and after taking pre-workout powder at the trailhead, I was almost running the whole way. I got a 2 hour late start, was alone so nobody held me back, so man I was booking it. After this hike, I find these stories hard to believe, very hard, BUT I will change my opinion if evidence emerges. I dont hold on to false things once I see that its false. If its on video, Ill watch it and adjust my opinion. If its a story in a newspaper, that gives some credence too. If its just a story on treasurenet, well........
Elderly people, in my opinion, trying to throw some common sense into the story, in my way as I see fit, aren't being miners out here in their 70's. Most 70 year old men Ive been blessed to know aren't concerned about making money and they surely aren't breaking their bodies to do it. Different times, German immigrants, I know....
Wanna know how many 70 year olds I see on the easy trails in the Sups, now that millions of people live here and the trails are well marked and well trodden? Zero (not that I ask everyone their age, but...). Ive seen zero. Unless the trail is in Lost Dutchman State Park (or off Peralta on winter weekends) Im usually alone out there, and millions of people live here now.
That changes, however, if Im down southern Sups off Hewitt. That place is loaded with people on side-by-sides, and jeeps and what have you.

 

[cuzimloony]

"Leaves the quarter circle U ranch at 8:50
Bluff springs at 11:05"
I haven't exactly calculated the distance, but it seems at a quick glance that he, at 80, walked literally twice as fast as me. It took him 2 hours to go farther than I did in 4.
Sorry man. Im gonna have to pass on that. Im not buying it. Im surely not trying to act like the best hiker in the world, but Ive done almost 1/3 of the appalachian trail, have hiked the Sups for the past 5 years now so....Im surely not a beginner hiker either and.... boy...... Ive met some great men, but.....
I am at a crossroads. I either need to reevaluate my abilities, reevaluate what I think an 80 year old can do, or accept what something inside tells me is common sense.... but in case im wrong, in the morning I will calculate the distance and see if you've provided a bit more to the story.....

 

[cuzimloony]

How to Thru-hike Over 60 Years Old

Five thru-hikers age 60+ share advice on gear, training, nutrition, injury, recovery and motivation to get you inspired to backpack a long trail

www.treelinereview.com

Reevaluation incoming. Elderly hikers in this article giving tips and tricks on long distance hiking. So....it can be done. I do note however, that they are all pretty much "professional hikers", thats all they do and they train.
I'll say this, I know multiple prospectors here who are between say 60 and 75 and most of them won't go more than 50 yards from their vehicle in the Sups, and not just there, amywhere in souther AZ. At most its, drive to the spot, pull out metal detectors and walk around for an hour, then go home amd research some more. If I were to ask any of them to hike a trail, they'd all (and some have) said no way hose-A. Aint happening. Too easy to get hurt out here and when you're old, too long to recover. A hiker who never leaves the trail will do different calculus and is a different matter altogether.
So.....I see the article. I know it can be done by elderly people who train and prepare to do it (not prospecting off trail, but hiking on trail), and I still know of no elderly prospector who leaves more than 50 yards from the road out here..... food for thought, for me..........
But 2x as fast, when I was almost running....... nah.

 

[Geoffnotjeff]

Apologies, it was Al Resser, not Al morrow. Here is a snippet from the Kollenborn chronicles about his hiking ability - at 86. An outlier for sure, but im just using it as an example of what people are capable of, and no one alive has any idea what waltz was capable of. It could go one way or the other, but the point i was trying to get across is - its closeminded, to me, to believe it wasnt possible to do so because its challenging.

"Many years ago I rode into La Barge Canyon with Bud Lane to retrieve Al Reser’s drop camp. I believe it was end of March 1984. Bud and I met Al in camp at about 9:00 a.m. We packed up Al’s camp while he began his walk out to First Water. I figured we would pass Al on the trail. As we continued to ride there was no sign of Al Reser. I couldn’t imagine what had happen to Al. When we approached the trailhead there Al was sitting in the shade of his truck. He finally told us he had been waiting for almost an hour for us. Bud Lane had warned me Al would walk almost twice as fast as the horses. Al was eighty-six years old that day. Bud Lane packed Al’s drop-camps into the mountains for more than a decade. Bud looked at me then said, if any man deserved to find the Lost Dutchman Mine it would Al Reser. Bud Lane respected few men and those he respected didn’t know it."

All i know is, counting out the Oldtimers isnt wise, they were tough to just survive back then, let alone be out in he wilderness, in Indian country.

The timed hike was from his hiking logbook, as noted by TE glover in his most recent book, and used as an example of his ability and speed.

 

[cuzimloony]

Apologies, it was Al Resser, not Al morrow. Here is a snippet from the Kollenborn chronicles about his hiking ability - at 86. An outlier for sure, but im just using it as an example of what people are capable of, and no one alive has any idea what waltz was capable of. It could go one way or the other, but the point i was trying to get across is - its closeminded, to me, to believe it wasnt possible to do so because its challenging.

"Many years ago I rode into La Barge Canyon with Bud Lane to retrieve Al Reser’s drop camp. I believe it was end of March 1984. Bud and I met Al in camp at about 9:00 a.m. We packed up Al’s camp while he began his walk out to First Water. I figured we would pass Al on the trail. As we continued to ride there was no sign of Al Reser. I couldn’t imagine what had happen to Al. When we approached the trailhead there Al was sitting in the shade of his truck. He finally told us he had been waiting for almost an hour for us. Bud Lane had warned me Al would walk almost twice as fast as the horses. Al was eighty-six years old that day. Bud Lane packed Al’s drop-camps into the mountains for more than a decade. Bud looked at me then said, if any man deserved to find the Lost Dutchman Mine it would Al Reser. Bud Lane respected few men and those he respected didn’t know it."

All i know is, counting out the Oldtimers isnt wise, they were tough to just survive back then, let alone be out in he wilderness, in Indian country.

The timed hike was from his hiking logbook, as noted by TE glover in his most recent book, and used as an example of his ability and speed.

I love Toms old yarns.
Have you seen his Wagoner map? Great stuff......
I think he was engaged in a bit of flattery here, but maybe it was due. I never knew Al so.....

Twice as fast as me.......and I purposefully booked it. Doubt. Ive heard lots of stories and Ive seen how Tom fudges things, sometimes.
Again, I just did this hike and I remember saying, on video, "a HIKER could do this," but with a caveat (not off trail) so.....once we add in bushwacking to the side of a mountain and mining, or a ledge, or building a mine at the end of these hikes......my spidey sense goes off now. Maybe it will stop as I meet more thunters. But.....like I said earlier. I dont meet many.

Here's Tom's thoughs on the same trail I took.
"I was exhausted from this strenuous hike," and he wrote that when he was my age, I think, telling a story of when he was much younger with his father...... Tom was exhausted. I needed a couple days to revover. But The Wagoner and Waltz did it over and over no problem? And I cant question that without being "closed-minded?" Hmmm
Are there super hikers? Ok. I will admit last night I read an article about some exceptional elderly folk. They are absolutely the exceptions. Did we get 2 of those exceptions here in the Sups, (Wagoner, Dutchman....and now Al!) taking the exact same route (which I think you said probably wasn't a very well worn trail) to the exact same place when there was almost no people here? Now that millions of people live here, I never see those elderly exceptions, even on the easy trails I take my kids on. (Its usually ASU aged kids on those easy trails or "people looking to lose weight") I hike either alone or with the wife and kids, weekly in the Sups (lately...less frequent when I lived closer to Phoenix). Its wishful thinking to believe one yarn about a man walking twice as fast as a horse appliess to every elderly person, in every yarn, about the Sups.
I think its agian, common sense, to say "If im in very good athletic shape and had a hard time, and Tom was a man of the mountains and had a hard time, then wait a minute, why do we have all these stories about elderly people EASILY doing something in-shape people struggle with? Somethings not right. A completey appropriate and normal thing to wonder....
Not closed minded, but common sensed. You even said yourself Al was an OUTLIER...not the norm, but then say that because you think an OUTLIER did it, now every story about all elderly people in the Sups, "must be true or your closed minded.
Hmmmm
Well, you didnt actually SAY that, but its the implication im picking up on.
Not sure I buy that....Again, I know of zero, over-70 prospectors that will even consider going in there (unless a vehicle is nearby) and these are local, lifelong, AZ acclimated prospecters, but I will admit that some OUTLIER elderly people can hike. I will adjust my perspective on that a bit, but again, not too much since I stated on video a hiker could hike the trail. Its the strenuous hike, coupled with mining, coupled with carrying a suitcase, coupled with carrying out ore, coupled with being in your 70's or 80's, coupled with Apaches, coupled with hiking without adequate water or salt tabs, coupled with other oddities I cant think of at the moment, coupled with the knowledge that most treasure stories are just that-stories, and coupled with finally, common sense......