Whiskey Springs Maps

[Idahodutch]

Cuzimloony,
I would be hesitant to include Waltz in the group of super hikers.

From my calculations, (translate to imo) Waltz did all his mining on the LDM on the first trip back somewhere around 1868-1871

He made caches …. Supposedly 3.
He supposedly went back the last time 8 years before he died……. So about 1883

That leaves the time he went back to retrieve the 1st cache ….. my guess would be ~1877 ish.

He certainly could have been there just to check on stuff, and not be retrieving anything, but it was a dangerous and wild place so idk 🤷🏼‍♂️

The only time that Waltz was really trying to make tracks, was when he went to Florence, and took 3 days to go there and back.
At that time…… somewhere between 1868-1871, Waltz would have been between 59-62 years old. A different ball game if you ask me.

It’s good to see you working through things … all part of the process 👍😁

Keep up the good work, you’re doing great.
-IdahoDutch

PS, I think the 3rd cache is still there 👌😉

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Agony and Death on a Gold Rush Steamer: The Disastrous Sinking of the Side-Wheeler Yankee Blade - Grab it through Amazon!

[cuzimloony]

Cuzimloony,
I would be hesitant to include Waltz in the group of super hikers.

From my calculations, (translate to imo) Waltz did all his mining on the LDM on the first trip back somewhere around 1868-1871

He made caches …. Supposedly 3.
He supposedly went back the last time 8 years before he died……. So about 1883

That leaves the time he went back to retrieve the 1st cache ….. my guess would be ~1877 ish.

He certainly could have been there just to check on stuff, and not be retrieving anything, but it was a dangerous and wild place so idk 🤷🏼‍♂️

The only time that Waltz was really trying to make tracks, was when he went to Florence, and took 3 days to go there and back.
At that time…… somewhere between 1868-1871, Waltz would have been between 59-62 years old. A different ball game if you ask me.

It’s good to see you working through things … all part of the process 👍😁

Keep up the good work, you’re doing great.
-IdahoDutch

PS, I think the 3rd cache is still there 👌😉

This is why I started this thread. Sometimes I need help straightening myself out. Thank you!
Iwhole-heartedly concur that some 60ish year old man could have the fit and vigor (vit? What the heck is vit?? Anyway...) to do what we talking about here and that, there are a higher percentage of that age group who can do this. I know some who could, and suspect RFK (surely not a lifelong manual loborer) could too and he's 70.
Great info here and a new persprctive for me. Growing.....gracias señor.
3rd cashe you say......................

 

[Idahodutch]

This is why I started this thread. Sometimes I need help straightening myself out. Thank you!
Iwhole-heartedly concur that some 60ish year old man could have the fit and vigor to do what we talking about here and that, there are a higher percentage of that age group who can do this. I know some who could, and suspect RFK (surely not a lifelong manual loborer) could too and he's 70.
Great info here and a new persprctive for me. Growing.....gracias señor.
3rd cashe you say......................

Yes,
The 3rd cache is the one Waltz was giving Julia directions for …… she wasn’t able to find it, to retrieve it 🤔.

-Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Yes,
The 3rd cache is the one Waltz was giving Julia directions for …… she wasn’t able to find it, to retrieve it 🤔.

-Idahodutch

The path to his mine, and the path to the 3rd cache … are the same path.

Waltz said you can’t find one, without finding the other.
Said the 3rd cache is already dug out, and in the mine.

(He also said he spent a winter burying his mine.)

Enough said 🤓👍

 

[SPARTANOC]

I love Toms old yarns.
Have you seen his Wagoner map? Great stuff......
I think he was engaged in a bit of flattery here, but maybe it was due. I never knew Al so.....

Twice as fast as me.......and I purposefully booked it. Doubt. Ive heard lots of stories and Ive seen how Tom fudges things, sometimes.
Again, I just did this hike and I remember saying, on video, "a HIKER could do this," but with a caveat (not off trail) so.....once we add in bushwacking to the side of a mountain and mining, or a ledge, or building a mine at the end of these hikes......my spidey sense goes off now. Maybe it will stop as I meet more thunters. But.....like I said earlier. I dont meet many. Im usually alone out there.

Here's Tom's thoughs on the same trail I took.
"I was exhausted from this strenuous hike," and he wrote that when he was my age, I think, telling a story of when he was much younger with his father...... Tom was exhausted. I needed a couple days to revover. But The Wagoner and Waltz did it over and over no problem? And I cant question that without being "closed-minded?" Lol Please.....
Are there super hikers? Ok. I will admit last night I read an article about some exceptional elderly folk. They are absolutely the exceptions. Did we get 2 of those exceptions here in the Sups, (Wagoner, Dutchman....and now Al!) taking the exact same route (which I think you said probably wasn't a very well worn trail) to the exact same place when there was almost no people here? Now that millions of people live here, I never see those elderly exceptions, even on the easy trails I take my kids on. (Its usually ASU aged kids on those easy trails or "people looking to lose weight") I hike either alone or with the wife and kids, weekly in the Sups. Its wishful thinking to believe one yarn about a man walking twice as fast as a horse appliess to every elderly person, in every yarn, about the Sups.
I think its agian, common sense, to say "If im in very good athletic shape and had a hard time, and Tom was a man of the mountains and had a hard time, then wait a minute, why do we have all these stories about elderly people EASILY doing something in-shape people struggle with? Somethings not right. A completey appropriate and normal thing to wonder....
Not closed minded, but common sensed. You even said yourself Al was an OUTLIER...not the norm, but then say that because you think an OUTLIER did it, now every story about all elderly people in the Sups, "must be true or your closed minded.
Ok.
Well, you didnt actually SAY that, but its the implication im picking up on.
Not sure I buy that....Again, I know of zero, over-70 prospectors that will even consider going in there (unless a vehicle is nearby) and these are local, lifelong thunters, but I will admit that some OUTLIER elderly people can hike. I will adjust my perspective on that a bit, but again, not too much since I stated on video a hiker could hike the trail. Its the strenuous hike, coupled with mining, coupled with carrying a suitcase, coupled with carrying out ore, coupled with being in your 70's or 80's, coupled with Apaches, coupled with hiking without adequate water or salt tabs, coupled with other oddities I cant think of at the moment, coupled with the knowledge that most treasure stories are just that-stories, and coupled with finally, common sense......

I will agree that there ARE those (whom are elderly), CAN hike incredible distances over a long period of time - without "crashing" due to the environment/weather.

With some sort of comparison - I'm 55, been hiking for years - so you could say I'm more than just a daily hiker. What many here might not know about me - is that I am a smoker (yeah, I know, shame on me). Been one for 35 years and I STILL can go out, hike for 10 to 12 hours - covering miles of wilderness all with just 2.5 liters of electrolyte water all while carrying 50lbs of gear and get back to my vehicle before dark. I'll struggle, but will complete the route. My point is, I can see the RIGHT type of elderly man (who isn't a smoker) hiking into a tough area and make it back - but to say an 80 year old packed with gear (water, suitcase etc.) - make their way through some of the toughest terrain known to anyone, proceed to, mine out some Ore, is really hard to swallow. I have to say - though there are tough ones out there - common sense overrules the exceptional though. From what I know about those who lived back then in the 1800's - were a rare breed of tough-ones that don't really exist these days, but hearing a lot of these stories of men in the late 70's - reaching sites (Mines, caves, etc.) without having issues is just so hard to believe, I have to fall back on common sense. Again, as Geoff states - there are those who are exceptionally fit in regards to endurance - allowing them to cover great distances, but that certainly isn't the average man. Of course - were those back then, average people? I have to say no. Those back then struggled just for the basics and would do ANYTHING to survive and complete their task. I think we can all agree on that.

So - as we could go back and forth (as I did above with myself), I think we can all agree, that those back then were just survivors of anything that came their way in Life. Al Senner did some incredible distances as well - though he was known to ride most of the time - there were times he had to climb up that North Western side, just to reach his camp, not to mention he did that during snow storms as well - providing you believe the story by Helen Corbin.

What I will say about all of this - is that in the end, I have to go with Joe on his assessment. He walked the path that supposedly Wagoner did take, as well as the Dutchman who did similar hikes down similar paths - as everywhere in those Supes is tough to get to. He got to see first hand the difficulties that can arise if one isn't prepared. Not to mention that Joe was on an actual trail. I don't believe those back then had the same trails as we have today. I would think, many times - those back then would have to walk "off trail" and into the thick of things - just to reach a desired location that's supposedly hidden from everyone else.

All this said - a thought comes to mind, based on all of this discussion. If most of us think these men DIDN'T walk/hike those distances like the stories would have you believe- then that leaves me to believe the Wagoner's location AND the Dutchman's location are not that far into the Wilderness. In this thinking - things would make more sense in how these men conducted their business, being able to get in there within a day - and then get out before dark. Something just isn't right about those kind of details. Once one (like Joe), gets out there - it just gets harder and harder to believe what we've all been told about these old timers.

 

[cuzimloony]

The path to his mine, and the path to the 3rd cache … are the same path.

Waltz said you can’t find one, without finding the other.
Said the 3rd cache is already dug out, and in the mine.

(He also said he spent a winter burying his mine.)

Enough said 🤓👍

Yes, I do know the story says it's quite purposefully quite buried now, but it is a nice refresher. I didn't remember that when I was out there and consequentially, didn't look. I wonder if thats true, or a nice little CIRCLE to keep people HERE for a loooong time. Either way, Im here and will follow all leads the best I can.... Another hike (besides the ones currently on the fire) is in the planning stages. Winter is short here. I need to do as much as I can, now.

 

[cuzimloony]

I will agree that there ARE those (whom are elderly), CAN hike incredible distances over a long period of time - without "crashing" due to the environment/weather.

With some sort of comparison - I'm 55, been hiking for years - so you could say I'm more than just a daily hiker. What many here might not know about me - is that I am a smoker (yeah, I know, shame on me). Been one for 35 years and I STILL can go out, hike for 10 to 12 hours - covering miles of wilderness all with just 2.5 liters of electrolyte water all while carrying 50lbs of gear and get back to my vehicle before dark. I'll struggle, but will complete the route. My point is, I can see the RIGHT type of elderly man (who isn't a smoker) hiking into a tough area and make it back - but to say an 80 year old packed with gear (water, suitcase etc.) - make their way through some of the toughest terrain known to anyone, proceed to, mine out some Ore, is really hard to swallow. I have to say - though there are tough ones out there - common sense overrules the exceptional though. From what I know about those who lived back then in the 1800's - were a rare breed of tough-ones that don't really exist these days, but hearing a lot of these stories of men in the late 70's - reaching sites (Mines, caves, etc.) without having issues is just so hard to believe, I have to fall back on common sense. Again, as Geoff states - there are those who are exceptionally fit in regards to endurance - allowing them to cover great distances, but that certainly isn't the average man. Of course - were those back then, average people? I have to say no. Those back then struggled just for the basics and would do ANYTHING to survive and complete their task. I think we can all agree on that.

So - as we could go back and forth (as I did above with myself), I think we can all agree, that those back then were just survivors of anything that came their way in Life. Al Senner did some incredible distances as well - though he was known to ride most of the time - there were times he had to climb up that North Western side, just to reach his camp, not to mention he did that during snow storms as well - providing you believe the story by Helen Corbin.

What I will say about all of this - is that in the end, I have to go with Joe on his assessment. He walked the path that supposedly Wagoner did take, as well as the Dutchman who did similar hikes down similar paths - as everywhere in those Supes is tough to get to. He got to see first hand the difficulties that can arise if one isn't prepared. Not to mention that Joe was on an actual trail. I don't believe those back then had the same trails as we have today. I would think, many times - those back then would have to walk "off trail" and into the thick of things - just to reach a desired location that's supposedly hidden from everyone else.

All this said - a thought comes to mind, based on all of this discussion. If most of us think these men DIDN'T walk/hike those distances like the stories would have you believe- then that leaves me to believe the Wagoner's location AND the Dutchman's location are not that far into the Wilderness. In this thinking - things would make more sense in how these men conducted their business, being able to get in there within a day - and then get out before dark. Something just isn't right about those kind of details. Once one (like Joe), gets out there - it just gets harder and harder to believe what we've all been told about these old timers.

My thought, after reading this is, it could be that the mine isn't necrsarily IN the mountains. The is a very looooong "front range" especially along Barkley Basin. Maybe its along there, or just inside, like you said......
I think I might loop Barkley Basin too, save Millsite/Hewitt for Summer. I can jeep a large percentage of Millsite, up until I want to get out and hike, with my A/C on full blast....I cant do that in the Wilderness area...

 

[SPARTANOC]

My thought, after reading this is, it could be that the mine isn't necrsarily IN the mountains. The is a very looooong "front range" especially along Barkley Basin. Maybe its along there, or just inside, like you said......
I think I might loop Barkley Basin too, save Millsite/Hewitt for Summer. I can jeep a large percentage of Millsite, up until I want to get out and hike, with my A/C on full blast....I cant do that in the Wilderness area...

That sounds like a good adjustment to your plans.

I think too many for too long - have searched too far in - thinking that the only place one could find "something" of value, is only in the 'deep of things'. I would think now, is the time to adjust the thinking of HOW and WHERE one goes when it comes to these legends.

We all want to believe, because no one has discovered anything in regards to these two stories - that it MUST be deep inside the Supes, but I feel that thinking hasn't worked out for anyone really, and the way its always been thought of, should probably be adjusted.

 

[deducer]

My point is, I can see the RIGHT type of elderly man (who isn't a smoker) hiking into a tough area and make it back - but to say an 80 year old packed with gear (water, suitcase etc.) - make their way through some of the toughest terrain known to anyone.....

Al Reser did.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Al Reser did.

Or so we're told....

 

[cuzimloony]

Or so we're told....

There's always an exception, right? Let's not make that the rule......

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Al Reser did.

With Al Reser at my ranch near New River. Al was well in his 80's the last time I went back in the mountains with him.
We drove into Tortilla ranch and from there a 10 mile overnight hike was every inch off trail.
Al could do everything he could in younger days, just not as fast.
Al knew things back in those mountains only a few others knew of.

 

[SPARTANOC]

View attachment 2180870With Al Reser at my ranch near New River. Al was well in his 80's the last time I went back in the mountains with him.
We drove into Tortilla ranch and from there a 10 mile overnight hike was every inch off trail.
Al could do everything he could in younger days, just not as fast.
Al knew things back in those mountains only a few others knew of.

You just made the point; "Al could do everything he could in younger days, just not as fast."

That there is the crux of the observation, (just not as fast). So, in keeping with that statement, would they of been able to get in there and out within a day, at the age of 80+?

 

[cuzimloony]

View attachment 2180870With Al Reser at my ranch near New River. Al was well in his 80's the last time I went back in the mountains with him.
We drove into Tortilla ranch and from there a 10 mile overnight hike was every inch off trail.
Al could do everything he could in younger days, just not as fast.
Al knew things back in those mountains only a few others knew of.

5 miles in, 5 miles out, in 2 days is impressive for an elderly gentleman. My hat is off.
"Just not as fast." Weird... someone here is saying that Al was twice as fast at his age than I am, at half his age. Was that Tom Kollenborn? Or someone's diary? How fast was Al when he was young!?!?! However....the thing everyone wants to know is, did he bring 2 suitcases? lol

Great pic there. Thank you for sharing. The reason you all know Al did this though, is because he is the exception, not the rule.

 

[SPARTANOC]

5 miles in, 5 miles out, in 2 days is impressive for an elderly gentleman. My hat is off.
"Just not as fast." Weird... someone here is saying that Al was twice as fast at his age than I am, at half his age. Was that Tom Kollenborn?? He never fudges anything...... How fast was Al when he was young!?!?! However....the thing everyone wants to know is, did he bring 2 suitcases? lol

Great pic there. Thanks for sharing. The reason you all know Al did this though, is because he is the exception, not the rule. If every 80 year old could do this, we wouldn't even be bragging about Al's abilities. The exception is not the rule.

With all of this pondering, I do have to add (so to be fair to Robert's & Deducer statements), is that when I go regularly up to the East Fork Road in Azusa - the misses and I do at times - watch some elderly folks of a foreign origin, who look to being 70+, briskly walk past us - as if we were standing still. They're like ninjas, moving about the boulders and loose rocks. They won't have nearly the equipment we have with us (prospecting gear, survival gear, 3 liters of water, etc.), but with just one bottle of water - walk past us and gain more distance than us in a shorter time period.

So, as Joe states, there are the exceptions to the rule.

In MHO, it's your CORE that needs to be built up and strengthened and with a good CORE, you can cover distances that many cannot - compared to those who don't have a strong CORE, as I've seen 20 year olds "crash" after just a couple of hours.

 

[cuzimloony]

FYI for anyone interested. The entirety of the trip from Peralta TH to just before Trap Canyon was covered with FRESH horse poop. Not like every square inch "covered," but there was a lot of poop, and recent poop, out there. A lot of people still go in on horseback OR it could just be "that one horse" who ate too much ice cream w/ grass last night.

 

[cuzimloony]

More thinking out loud...... in reference to Spartan's comment. Im listening to https://astonishinglegends.com/al-podcasts/2017/2/6/ep-028-the-kgc-an-american-conspiracy-part-2 and they are talking about how Ruth got "packed-in," to the Sups. That is, somebody brought him and all his gear into the sups on horseback, because walking that far into the sups can be unwise at Ruth's age and hip/health status. This is pretty common for dutch hunters and people have set up companies to do this sort of thing. I'm sure you are all well aware.....
Anyhow, did Jacob or Wagoner ever need to be "packed-in?" They were walking right? Did Jacob ride the mule like marcmar said? Is that the story? Does it even work like that? I honestly don't know...
Long story long, if Jacob didn't ride his mule, then needing to be "packed-in" seems a bit excessive. Those that did get packed in went too far.... It ain't that deep..... Just spit ballin' here.... Looking for reactions, info, perspective, etc....

 

[SPARTANOC]

More thinking out loud...... in reference to Spartan's comment. Im listening to https://astonishinglegends.com/al-podcasts/2017/2/6/ep-028-the-kgc-an-american-conspiracy-part-2 and they are talking about how Ruth got "packed-in," to the Sups. That is, somebody brought him and all his gear into the sups on horseback, because walking that far into the sups can be unwise at Ruth's age and hip/health status. This is pretty common for dutch hunters and people have set up companies to do this sort of thing. I'm sure you are all well aware.....
Anyhow, did Jacob or Wagoner ever need to be "packed-in?" They were walking right? Did Jacob ride the mule like marcmar said? Is that the story? Does it even work like that? I honestly don't know...
Long story long, if Jacob didn't ride his mule, then needing to be "packed-in" seems a bit excessive. Those that did get packed in went too far.... It ain't that deep..... Just spit ballin' here.... Looking for reactions, info, perspective, etc....

I have a hunch - that Ruth having been packed in by some locals - resulted in getting Ruth killed.

I can't imagine Jacob or Wagoner being packed in there, by someone. Jacob at least - was paranoid and didn't trust anyone that I can tell (according the Bicknell) in his last days other than Julia- and to think someone packed him in, doesn't make sense. In my opinion - most back then I would think would have gone in with the least of people knowing of what they were up to. The whole trust factor back then, was worse than it is today. Right?

 

[markmar]

More thinking out loud...... in reference to Spartan's comment. Im listening to https://astonishinglegends.com/al-podcasts/2017/2/6/ep-028-the-kgc-an-american-conspiracy-part-2 and they are talking about how Ruth got "packed-in," to the Sups. That is, somebody brought him and all his gear into the sups on horseback, because walking that far into the sups can be unwise at Ruth's age and hip/health status. This is pretty common for dutch hunters and people have set up companies to do this sort of thing. I'm sure you are all well aware.....
Anyhow, did Jacob or Wagoner ever need to be "packed-in?" They were walking right? Did Jacob ride the mule like marcmar said? Is that the story? Does it even work like that? I honestly don't know...
Long story long, if Jacob didn't ride his mule, then needing to be "packed-in" seems a bit excessive. Those that did get packed in went too far.... It ain't that deep..... Just spit ballin' here.... Looking for reactions, info, perspective, etc....

Nobody is wondering why Wagoner didn't stake a claim on his mine. If would been close to a town, in Hewitt or Millsite Canyon, I believe there would not been a problem to do so . There were already mining claims in Rogers Canyon and close to Superior. So, what was the problem?

 

[cuzimloony]

Nobody is wondering why Wagoner didn't stake a claim on his mine. If would been close to a town, in Hewitt or Millsite Canyon, I believe there would not been a problem to do so . There were already mining claims in Rogers Canyon and close to Superior. So, what was the problem?

Why would you stake a claim on highgraded ore?