Where did the gold go?

[Oceanscience]

First I would like to go back to the beautiful Brazilian gold coin in post #13.
The 1722 shipwreck, with a very large amount of these gold coins, as well as many gold bars and other immense riches, really does exist and lies, virgin on the bottom of the ocean.

The problem, is who will claim ownership if we find it. I know there will be at least 3 nations and maybe 4, depending if it lies within a contiguous zone or not.

The shipwreck has a very good story and would be well suited to be exploited without selling any of the artifacts or coins. I think this is the only way it could work, because of the difficulties to satisfy all the nations involved.

This is why I am looking for a UNESCO compatible solution.

Now, going back to "What do archaeologists want" Sorry to insist on the theme, and thanks for the answer, but my question was not well formulated, so here I try again.

Many archaeologists claim the treasure hunters want to rape and plunder the shipwrecks for their own personal gain.
Sure, greedy treasure hunters exist, but what about archaeologists? (No offence intended)

What is the goal in life of an archaeologist?

Fame?
Financial stability and well being?
Peer recognition that translates into a better paid job?
Power, to make the rules?
To do what he really likes, fulfillment, satisfaction of a job well done?

A similar list can be made for treasure hunters. (We leave the bad ones, "the get rick quick ones", out of the equation)

With so many shipwrecks all over the world, why do we not give each archaeologist one shipwreck to keep him happy for the rest of his life? would this be a solution?

What about the treasure hunters? How can we make them happy?

 

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[ScubaFinder]

OK, I'll play along for a minute.

First off, I consider myself an ethical, private archaeologist (stolen from Doug Pope and Amelia Research). I'm actually a lot more like Jacques Cousteau than Mel Fisher. I could care less about hundreds of millions of dollars....sure it would be nice, but its not why I'm doing this. If I wanted money, I would have stayed with my 6 figure career. I left that to hunt for shipwrecks for $10 an hour....so calling me greedy won't get you far.

Of course I like peer recognition, and I have a lot of great friends on both sides of the fence. But again, not why I am here. My peers recognize me for many of my accomplishments, and a few of my pitfalls as well. :-) I'm not perfect, but I accept my mistakes with the same diligence as my successes.

I enjoy hours on end hunched over an electrolytic reduction bath watching artifacts loose their encrustation. I spend my own money conserving my mortar cannon in the Dominican Republic (only 3 more months to go). When it's done, I will donate it to the Museo de Atarazanaz in Santo Domingo. I logged almost 300 hours of underwater time on the San Miguel de Archangel last year alone. So all the cliche' things archaeologists say about treasure hunters, they do not apply to me. You'd be hard pressed to find ANY archaeologist who conserved more artifacts, or spent more time in the water than I did last year. Scott (seahunter) did even more, and finance the whole Archangel excavation out of his own pocket.

What I'm really after is the hunt, the journey. Solving the mystery of where a ship went down, or finding one blindly and solving which ship it is. I'm doing that right now in my home town...an old ballast pile was discovered in the 50's but never investigated. It's not a treasure wreck, but I'm out there diving it frequently just trying to deduce what year and nationality it might be, looking for any clue that might help me ID it. Why would I spend all this time and money if I know its not a treasure wreck....because Its in my blood, I have to know...it may be historically important.

For me, its solving the countless mysteries, its the hunt, the countless hours of study, and of course....the eureka moment. That is what I live for.

 

[mariner]

Well said, Jason.

Mariner

 

[SEAHUNTER]

Let's look at a different angle:

What does the Archaeologist want. Alexandre, would you be so kind and give us a description what a typical Archaeologist wants?
What are his aspirations.
What are his goals.
What makes him happy.

Bottom line?

1) An archaeological record and a conservation process according to state of the art/best practice.
2) No artifacts to be sold/dispersed.

From there, I am game to anything.

Really you just hate Capitalism.

Admit it, you are a communist.....

 

[VOC]

Alexandre,

There you go with your lack of real knowledge again.

"INA does it all the time. As does Parks Canada. As does the Western Australia Museum. As does the CASC, in Spain. As does the Mary Rose Trust does the UNESCO Underwater Archaeology Center, in Zadar. As does the DRASSM, in France, as does the RPM Nautical Foundation".

Many of us on here could write books on the poor archaeology done in the past by many of the organisations that you mention.

They just tell you it is called sampling when they dip into a wreck then leave it, or that their funders are unaware when they start fudging results, altering site plans, destroying artefacts during conservation, Incorrect interpretation of results, impossible prognoses of the wrecking, losing and damaging artefacts on site and at the labs, losing data, not using accepted practices or latest technology, rapid excavation to meet deadlines ignoring procedure, using personal not up to the job, getting into pissing matches with other disaplines, internal team squabbling, etc, etc, etc,

You might be able to bluff some, but you will never bluff us (like they say "in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king", your type can bluff your way through academia, but it does not work in the very informed world that we operate in)

You forget many of us have worked on archaeological projects for years, and have read all the papers and reports wrote by the project archaeologist, and when you know what actually went on you do have to chuckle at the final written words.

 

[Oceanscience]

OK, I'll play along for a minute.

First off, I consider myself an ethical, private archaeologist (stolen from Doug Pope and Amelia Research). I'm actually a lot more like Jacques Cousteau than Mel Fisher. I could care less about hundreds of millions of dollars....sure it would be nice, but its not why I'm doing this. If I wanted money, I would have stayed with my 6 figure career. I left that to hunt for shipwrecks for $10 an hour....so calling me greedy won't get you far.

Of course I like peer recognition, and I have a lot of great friends on both sides of the fence. But again, not why I am here. My peers recognize me for many of my accomplishments, and a few of my pitfalls as well. :-) I'm not perfect, but I accept my mistakes with the same diligence as my successes.

I enjoy hours on end hunched over an electrolytic reduction bath watching artifacts loose their encrustation. I spend my own money conserving my mortar cannon in the Dominican Republic (only 3 more months to go). When it's done, I will donate it to the Museo de Atarazanaz in Santo Domingo. I logged almost 300 hours of underwater time on the San Miguel de Archangel last year alone. So all the cliche' things archaeologists say about treasure hunters, they do not apply to me. You'd be hard pressed to find ANY archaeologist who conserved more artifacts, or spent more time in the water than I did last year. Scott (seahunter) did even more, and finance the whole Archangel excavation out of his own pocket.

What I'm really after is the hunt, the journey. Solving the mystery of where a ship went down, or finding one blindly and solving which ship it is. I'm doing that right now in my home town...an old ballast pile was discovered in the 50's but never investigated. It's not a treasure wreck, but I'm out there diving it frequently just trying to deduce what year and nationality it might be, looking for any clue that might help me ID it. Why would I spend all this time and money if I know its not a treasure wreck....because Its in my blood, I have to know...it may be historically important.

For me, its solving the countless mysteries, its the hunt, the countless hours of study, and of course....the eureka moment. That is what I live for.

Jason, thanks for your explanation. I can see that you have the spirit, the fire and the passion.
If you are a representative example of many others out there, there should be no difficulties of finding enough willing divers to build a wrecking museum team in the Bahamas.

The big question that remains, is how to fund the project.

With the downturn of the world economy, the tourism income of the Bahamas is probably also affected. We would have to look at the private sector to provide the funds.

Can we come up with some ideas of how this could work? I mean ideas that would be a win-win solution for both, the Bahamas as well as for the funding sector.

 

[Dell Winders]

Many Years ago myself, and Roscoe Thompson, supplied all the artifacts for a shipwreck Museum in Nassau, started by Dr. Doris Johnson (deceased) who was then the Minister of Transport.

I assisted Jo Ann Kelly, every year in repainting the Cannons with Epoxy to preserve them, and I built a lot boards with attached artifacts I recovered that hung on the walls at the British Colonial hotel.

8 years ago I met with George Mosco, who was preparing a building in downtown Nassau, to build a Shipwreck museum. I don't if this was ever implemented, but George has a big collection of artifacts, and the finances to do it.

A shipwreck museum on Bimini, is included in the prospectus of group seeking funding.

I am contributing to the addition of a Shipwreck section to a historical museum on Green Turtle Cay, Abaco.

The idea of a shipwreck exhibition is nothing new to the Bahamas, but not likely to be profitable.

What would be new would be a Treasure Museum. Who is going to donate the Treasure? Dell

 

[Oceanscience]

The Bahamas? How the heck did I get there.
I started this thread about shipwrecks laden with Brazilian gold, in European waters.
Now we are in the Bahamas. I must have been sucked up by the Bermuda Triangle.

Anyway, thanks Dell for the information about the Bahamas. I love the Bahamas too. Been there, done that. Fantastic place. Incredible amounts of shipwrecks, shipwreck stories and wreckers lore. Old and modern.
Somebody ought to collect all the stories and write a book. Or rather several books. And a few movies.

 

[Dell Winders]

Jason, thanks for your explanation. I can see that you have the spirit, the fire and the passion.
If you are a representative example of many others out there, there should be no difficulties of finding enough willing divers to build a wrecking museum team in the Bahamas.

The big question that remains, is how to fund the project.

With the downturn of the world economy, the tourism income of the Bahamas is probably also affected. We would have to look at the private sector to provide the funds.

Can we come up with some ideas of how this could work? I mean ideas that would be a win-win solution for both, the Bahamas as well as for the funding sector.

oceanscience, I merely made a reply to your post regarding ideas for a wrecking museum in the Bahamas? I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread and will remove my post if you wish? Dell

 

[Alexandre]

Can we come up with some ideas of how this could work? I mean ideas that would be a win-win solution for both, the Bahamas as well as for the funding sector.

Well... you could try the Israeli approach to funding archaeology...

 

[Alexandre]

Many of us on here could write books on the poor archaeology done in the past by many of the organisations that you mention.

Please, give me examples. Put you money where your mouth is.

 

[stevemc]

Oceanscience, I am as baffled as Dell is, you brought the Bahamas up in your post.

 

[VOC]

"Please, give me examples. Put you money where your mouth is."

Alexandre, you are meant to be the researcher, do your own research and you will find most of the examples for yourself, take off your rose tinted glasses and lift the edge of the carpet to see all what has been swept under the carpet in the past.

Unlike yourself, I would not name and shame on here, as although I disagree with a lot of the academic worlds flawed thinking I would not compromise other peoples livelihoods,

 

[Oceanscience]

Jason, thanks for your explanation. I can see that you have the spirit, the fire and the passion.
If you are a representative example of many others out there, there should be no difficulties of finding enough willing divers to build a wrecking museum team in the Bahamas.

The big question that remains, is how to fund the project.

With the downturn of the world economy, the tourism income of the Bahamas is probably also affected. We would have to look at the private sector to provide the funds.

Can we come up with some ideas of how this could work? I mean ideas that would be a win-win solution for both, the Bahamas as well as for the funding sector.

oceanscience, I merely made a reply to your post regarding ideas for a wrecking museum in the Bahamas? I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread and will remove my post if you wish? Dell

Dell, I enjoy your posts and think they bring valuable information to the discussion.
I was just musing and amusing myself how things can change. One moment here, the other moment there.
The subject of European waters does not generate as much interest like the Bahamas. For myself I would rather dive in the warm crystal clear water of Bahamas every day of the year than diving once a year in the murky cold water near Europe.

 

[Oceanscience]

Oceanscience, I am as baffled as Dell is, you brought the Bahamas up in your post.

I was reading a post about the Bahamas, then lost the connection. Somehow I put my comment on a different thread. Sorry about the confusion, my fault altogether and never meant to complain.

The Bahamas and the shipwrecks there, bring back many fond memories of long ago.

 

[Oceanscience]

Can we come up with some ideas of how this could work? I mean ideas that would be a win-win solution for both, the Bahamas as well as for the funding sector.

Well... you could try the Israeli approach to funding archaeology...

Thanks for the tip. Could you give a short description of how it works and maybe a link?

 

[SADS 669]

Many Years ago myself, and Roscoe Thompson, supplied all the artifacts for a shipwreck Museum in Nassau, started by Dr. Doris Johnson (deceased) who was then the Minister of Transport.

I assisted Jo Ann Kelly, every year in repainting the Cannons with Epoxy to preserve them, and I built a lot boards with attached artifacts I recovered that hung on the walls at the British Colonial hotel.

8 years ago I met with George Mosco, who was preparing a building in downtown Nassau, to build a Shipwreck museum. I don't if this was ever implemented, but George has a big collection of artifacts, and the finances to do it.

A shipwreck museum on Bimini, is included in the prospectus of group seeking funding.

I am contributing to the addition of a Shipwreck section to a historical museum on Green Turtle Cay, Abaco.

The idea of a shipwreck exhibition is nothing new to the Bahamas, but not likely to be profitable.

What would be new would be a Treasure Museum. Who is going to donate the Treasure? Dell

Sadly Dell,

in this day and age the security alone in keeping any treasure museum safe would be at least a quarter million a year. I also know how difficult a real museum would be to compete with the " pirates of Nassau" which is a first rate repro copy of what you are talking about.

 

[Oceanscience]

Sadly Dell,

in this day and age the security alone in keeping any treasure museum safe would be at least a quarter million a year. I also know how difficult a real museum would be to compete with the " pirates of Nassau" which is a first rate repro copy of what you are talking about.

Security is always a big problem in every museum. This is why the painting of the ugly lady, they call Monalisa, that is hanging on the wall in the Louvre, is only a well done reproduction, while the real one is kept in a vault.

I like the idea of a small history exhibit on every island.

The history is the story of the people of the island over time.

Each island has its unique stories to tell.

The wrecking was an important industry during centuries.
The smuggling provided a large part of the income during the American Independence War, the Civil War and the Prohibition time.
How many long forgotten shipwrecks were discovered during the sponge fishing time?
Many families have stories of the great, great, grandfather’s involvement in the wrecking, the smuggling or the piracy.
Telling this story to a visitor, would provide him a happy hour he would never forget. Specially if the story is proven with artifacts from an archaeological excavation, at the island, on land or under the sea.
Such a visitor will repeat the story he or she heard during a vacation in the Bahamas, a hundred times to his friends or her gossip group, gaining a lot of status.
In time the story will be embellished a bit, to give the repeater some additional credit. His friends, realizing what a great time he had in the Bahamas will want to go there themselves, to live the experience.
Thy want to hear and see the stories of shipwrecks, starvation and miraculous survival of the sailors of old who’s descendants are now part of the people living on the island.
The stories of great storms, terrifying hurricanes and the time capsules these events left in the shipwrecks, scattered beneath the waves, surrounding the island.

Each island has its own priceless treasures in these stories.

All the stories together are the great national treasure.

 

[SADS 669]

Security is always a big problem in every museum. This is why the painting of the ugly lady, they call Monalisa, that is hanging on the wall in the Louvre, is only a well done reproduction, while the real one is kept in a vault.

I like the idea of a small history exhibit on every island.

The history is the story of the people of the island over time.

Each island has its unique stories to tell.

The wrecking was an important industry during centuries.
The smuggling provided a large part of the income during the American Independence War, the Civil War and the Prohibition time.
How many long forgotten shipwrecks were discovered during the sponge fishing time?
Many families have stories of the great, great, grandfather’s involvement in the wrecking, the smuggling or the piracy.
Telling this story to a visitor, would provide him a happy hour he would never forget. Specially if the story is proven with artifacts from an archaeological excavation, at the island, on land or under the sea.
Such a visitor will repeat the story he or she heard during a vacation in the Bahamas, a hundred times to his friends or her gossip group, gaining a lot of status.
In time the story will be embellished a bit, to give the repeater some additional credit. His friends, realizing what a great time he had in the Bahamas will want to go there themselves, to live the experience.
Thy want to hear and see the stories of shipwrecks, starvation and miraculous survival of the sailors of old who’s descendants are now part of the people living on the island.
The stories of great storms, terrifying hurricanes and the time capsules these events left in the shipwrecks, scattered beneath the waves, surrounding the island.

Each island has its own priceless treasures in these stories.

All the stories together are the great national treasure.

This is exactly what " The Shark Lady" in Exuma used to do from her home, she earn't a living doing just what you say with her shark stories entertaining tourists

 

[Oceanscience]

This is exactly what " The Shark Lady" in Exuma used to do from her home, she earn't a living doing just what you say with her shark stories entertaining tourists

One tourist having a good time, will bring 10 tourists back to the place.

One of the great things about tourism, you go home and have a lot of stories to tell. This enhances your status.
You get invited by lots of people wanting to hear the stories.
You get lots of free drinks, so that people can hear your stories.

But, in modern times we can enhance this age old system.

We have U TUBE! We can tell the story to millions of people at once. As long as it is a good story.

The people of the Bahamas have a lot of good stories to tell.

There are fishing stories, diving stories, shipwreck and wrecking stories, hurricane stories and many more. Different on each island.