Where did the gold go?

[Oceanscience]

By the year 1500, there was about 50 tons of gold in European hands.
Then came the plunder of the Americas.
This added another 150 tons of gold.
By the year 1700 there was about 200 tons of gold in European hands.

Then the gold from Brazil started coming.

The Brazilian gold production was massive. During the next 130 years, about 1800 tons of the gold shipped, arrived in Portugal.

How many ships sank with large amounts of gold on board?

But what happened to the gold after it arrived in Portugal?

A very large part was shipped again, from Portugal to France and specially to England.

How much of that gold ended up on the bottom of the ocean?

 

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[cornelis 816]

Spain had a lot of bills to pay . Spain did not have any kind of industries . Everything had to be imported . So .. the gold taken out of the Americas was used to pay for all the materials Spain needed to stay afload . Sawn timber out of Holland . Cannon out of England . Anchors etc etc . So the gold never eneded up in the coffers of Spain but most of the time in the coffers of Spains enemies ( hey ! bussines is bussines ) Cornelius

 

[Oceanscience]

Spain had a lot of bills to pay . Spain did not have any kind of industries . Everything had to be imported . So .. the gold taken out of the Americas was used to pay for all the materials Spain needed to stay afload . Sawn timber out of Holland . Cannon out of England . Anchors etc etc . So the gold never eneded up in the coffers of Spain but most of the time in the coffers of Spains enemies ( hey ! bussines is bussines ) Cornelius

For Portugal it was even worst than Spain. Probably at least half the gold, 900 tons, went to England.

All of it went by sea.

How much of it ended on the bottom of the ocean?

Which were the routes taken by the ships?

Where were the dangerous spots, rocks, currents etc. that took the greatest toll?

 

[mad4wrecks]

This excellent book has lots of good information that may interest you:

Treasure Hunt: Shipwreck, Diving, and the Quest for Treasure in an Age of Heroes by Peter Earle


http://www.amazon.com/Treasure-Hunt-Shipwreck-Diving-Heroes/dp/0312380399

 

[Oceanscience]

This excellent book has lots of good information that may interest you:

Treasure Hunt: Shipwreck, Diving, and the Quest for Treasure in an Age of Heroes by Peter Earle


http://www.amazon.com/Treasure-Hunt-Shipwreck-Diving-Heroes/dp/0312380399

Thanks for the link.
Peter Earle knows what he is talking about.

Each age has it's shipwreck diving heroes.

Who is going to be the hero of our age?

Our age has incredible tools, technology and access to information, but what about the problems?

Shipwreck treasure hunting has always been only for the most intrepid and inventive pioneers. It is still today.

The problems are different today than they were in the past. This applies to every new generation of shipwreck treasure hunters.

Attached is the title page of a fascinating book. It can be downloaded from Google books.
This is one of the greatest and most detailed salvage operations, described in detail by the salver. One of the great heroes of his time.

Do such people still exist in our modern time?

Are there still people in this world who are capable to overcome today's problems associated with shipwreck salvage?

Is somebody capable of finding a working solution within the Unesco convention?

 

[RELICDUDE07]

I know some aztec gold went to the house of trade-----The Casa de Contrataci?n produced and managed the Padr?n Real, the official and secret Spanish map used as template for the maps present in all Spanish ships during the 16th century. It was constantly improved from its first version in 1508, and it was the counterpart of the Portuguese map, the Padr?o Real.
The Casa de Contrataci?n also ran a navigation school. New pilots, or navigators, were trained for ocean voyages at this school. Funny if you research it,it says it was in no specific building----------I think it was in America ! Any 1 have clues?

 

[Oceanscience]

During the heydays of the golden time in the 18th century, Packet-boats made about 20 trips per year between London and Lisbon. On average these mail-ships unloaded officially, about 50,000 Pounds Sterling of gold on their arrival in London.
About 1,000,000 Pounds per year.

How much more gold was the contraband?

Over the 130 golden years, how many of these Packet-boats shipwrecked? I know that some did. Where?

How much gold in Troy ounces is 50,000 Pounds Sterling of say 1750?

 

[Oceanscience]

This Packet-boat lies somewhere between Lisbon and London on the bottom of the ocean.
It is a priceless time capsule that can give an immense amount of information about commerce, trade, living conditions and much more about the sea trade of the mid 18th century.

An archaeologists dream.

Who does it belong to?

According to the Unesco it belongs to all humanity. However, we know that at least the UK and Portugal will claim ownership. The fact that there is some 50,000 Pound sterling of gold on board will make sure of that.

How much is this gold worth today? About US$ 24,000,000. That is the official amount. In reality we know that there was a lot of smuggling of gold going on at the time, so it might be more. How much more? 10%? 20%? 30%?

The historic and archaeological value of the shipwreck is of course much, much more.

What value would this "National Treasure" represent the the nation that owns it?

With today's critical economic situation in Europe, we might say that this gold would be welcome by either nation. How would it be accounted for? Would it enhance the gold reserve of the central bank?

How would the taxpayers who are subject to harsh austerity measures feel about their government going treasure hunting?

 

[Alexandre]

With today's critical economic situation in Europe, we might say that this gold would be welcome by either nation. How would it be accounted for? Would it enhance the gold reserve of the central bank?

How would the taxpayers who are subject to harsh austerity measures feel about their government going treasure hunting?

According to Portuguese legislation, our country cannot engage in treasure hunting. Also, being a State Party to the Unesco Convention, the county has to enforce it.

As for gold found in an archaeological site, it would be treated in the same way as a piece of pottery or a shard of ceramic: it cannot be auctioned, sold or traded.~

In my opinion, there is a value that one can attach to a cannon or a silver ingot. That value will add to the National Treasure.

Anyhow, if I find my target in the next years (one that was lost with c. 22 tons of silver and gold) I will give you a more pratical answer, since I will have to deal with the issue.

 

[Oceanscience]

With today's critical economic situation in Europe, we might say that this gold would be welcome by either nation. How would it be accounted for? Would it enhance the gold reserve of the central bank?

How would the taxpayers who are subject to harsh austerity measures feel about their government going treasure hunting?

According to Portuguese legislation, our country cannot engage in treasure hunting. Also, being a State Party to the Unesco Convention, the county has to enforce it.

As for gold found in an archaeological site, it would be treated in the same way as a piece of pottery or a shard of ceramic: it cannot be auctioned, sold or traded.~

In my opinion, there is a value that one can attach to a cannon or a silver ingot. That value will add to the National Treasure.

Anyhow, if I find my target in the next years (one that was lost with c. 22 tons of silver and gold) I will give you a more pratical answer, since I will have to deal with the issue.

Thank you Alexandre for the information.

There are many immensely rich shipwrecks of Portuguese origin. Since Portugal has signed the Unesco Convention, a project involving any one of these shipwrecks will need to be in line with the Convention.

As for gold found in an archaeological site, it would be treated in the same way as a piece of pottery or a shard of ceramic: it cannot be auctioned, sold or traded.~

How does this influence the project?

The most basic influence is in the value of the shipwreck. Taking my Packet-boat with it's US$ 24,000,000 in gold as example we can immediately see a dramatic change in value. Instead of having a minimum solid gold value of US$ 24,000,000 and maybe a collector's value of $50,000,000 or more, we end up with a negative value.

The asset has turned into a liability.

Unlike a few tons of pottery shards, that can be dumped into a basement of a museum and forgotten there, the gold bars and coins, generate high cost of curating, preserving and safe keeping. 1% of it's value per year or $240,000 is a very conservative figure for that.
Who is going to pay for that? The tax payers.
Are the tax payers going to be happy with that?

The most obvious solution to this problem is of course to just ignore the existence of this "National Treasure" Leave it in Situ. Do not find it. If it is in the path of a pipeline or a harbor wall, do not see it.

Let the bottom trawlers obliterate it with their heavy chains on the nets.

It will just cause a lot of cost and problems. It will delay the building of the harbor. It will delay progress. It will be an economic burden.

This is also the same outlook for your 22 tons of silver and gold wreck.

Now, of course we come to the billion dollar question.

How can we re-convert this liability into an asset?

The answer to this question is indeed worth a billion dollars, because there are many billion dollars on the bottom of the oceans.

The person who comes up with the right answer will be the salvage hero of our time, to be honored next to Phips, Lethbridge and another few who have gone into history as the most inventive and intrepid salvers of all times.

 

[Zodiacdiverdave]

The person who comes up with the right answer will be the salvage hero of our time, to be honored next to Phips, Lethbridge and another few who have gone into history as the most inventive and intrepid salvers of all times.

The answer to this will most likely be the one who is stealthy and quite like a raider in the night. You will not ever know him or see his face, you will only see the treasures in an auction house web site and this man will retire wealthy. The countries (like mine) that have adopted the Unesco crud will never know the origins of the artifacts, they will only look on from the sidelines with dismay.
ZDD

 

[aquanut]

According to Portuguese legislation, our country cannot engage in treasure hunting. Also, being a State Party to the Unesco Convention, the county has to enforce it.

As for gold found in an archaeological site, it would be treated in the same way as a piece of pottery or a shard of ceramic: it cannot be auctioned, sold or traded.~

In my opinion, there is a value that one can attach to a cannon or a silver ingot. That value will add to the National Treasure.

Anyhow, if I find my target in the next years (one that was lost with c. 22 tons of silver and gold) I will give you a more pratical answer, since I will have to deal with the issue.
[/quote]

Communism?

 

[Alexandre]

Communism?

With the far-right government we have right now? You're dreaming..

 

[Oceanscience]

Aquanut and Zodiacdiverdave,
thank you for the feedback.

No, I am not so pessimistic.
In fact, over the past 50 years we have seen some development, showing the way.
More so, in the 21st century we have seen immense changes in technology and these changes have opened many new doors.

I would like to explore a few ideas here and hope some of the clever minds on this forum will pitch in with more ideas.

If we analyse all these ideas and discard the not so good ones, we should end up with a workable proposition.

A solution that satisfies all parties, the archaeologists who believe in the UNESCO convention as well as the tax payers and the historians and the education ministry and the economy of each and any country involved.

A good business is when you make a profit.

The best business is when everybody profits and is happy with the outcome.

So let's bring up ideas, lots of ideas.....

Somebody posted the link below. Reading the newsletters, we see that in the UK they have a system that seems quite workable. Why don't we analyse that and discuss the good parts and the not so good parts?

Of course we can not tell the governments what they must do, but maybe if we can show a way that is satisfactory to all, some might grab the opportunity.

After all, we are talking of billions of dollars in gold lying on the ocean floor. With a win-win proposal, these billions come within reach.

Convert a liability into an asset.

http://www.shipwreckconference.org/dox/august2011newsletter.pdf

 

[Alexandre]

here´s some brazilian gold.

 

[Oceanscience]

here´s some brazilian gold.

Beautiful coins.

There is a virgin shipwreck out there with a huge amount of these on it, that sank in 1722. This is not the packet-boat mentioned earlier, but a different documented galleon.

Anybody knows of that one? It has a great story.

Good target? Not as long as this immense treasure is a liability.

To convert the liability into an asset, we need to identify values that are not tied to the sale of the treasure. One such value is the story. For how much can the story of this shipwreck be sold?

The vast amount of gold greatly enhances the value of the story. The gold represents a large news /media value that can be translated into an advertising value.

We have seen in recent years how the Internet media has been making billions of dollars out of advertising. Can this know-how be used to generate cash from treasure, without selling the treasure?

 

[Alexandre]

We have seen in recent years how the Internet media has been making billions of dollars out of advertising. Can this know-how be used to generate cash from treasure, without selling the treasure?

People keep going to Cairo (well, right now not as much as they used to go) to see the Pharaoh's golden mask or to Paris, to see the Mona Lisa.

 

[ScubaFinder]

I'll throw one out there that has been discussed in a few circles on both sides of the fence. The idea is basically Artifact Stewardship. The artifacts remain the property of the state, but I can become the steward for a particular artifact for a particular "donation" to the finder. Say I find 10,000 gold coins, the state needs about 100 of those for representative examples and collections that can be sent to other entities for study. Currently the state would also be charged with storing, securing, and preserving the other 9,900 coins (the liability).

If I sold the stewardship for 1 coin for $2,000 I could benefit from my hard work and get the funding I need to go after my next target. The "steward" maintains possession of the artifact and it's paperwork...if archaeologists deem it necessary to study this artifact again in person, it is the responsibility of the steward to loan it back to them until they are done, at which point it returns to the steward.

Of course this has TONS of merit and pitfalls alike. If the steward dies and the family sells it...we broke rule #1 in the archie handbook. It isn't perfect, but it's the closest thing I have seen. Trying to sell a "stewardship" would likely be a difficult proposition also...but it could be as limited as a line on the certificate stating that this artifact may be requested for further study, letting the treasure hunter "sell" the artifact with the stipulation that the state can request it for a length of time if needed.

I don't know, but it's a thought.

Jason

 

[Oceanscience]

We have seen in recent years how the Internet media has been making billions of dollars out of advertising. Can this know-how be used to generate cash from treasure, without selling the treasure?

People keep going to Cairo (well, right now not as much as they used to go) to see the Pharaoh's golden mask or to Paris, to see the Mona Lisa.

The Mona Lisa as a National Treasure is an excellent example. If she ever was for sale, how much would she bring?

At present she costs a lot in maintenance. One expensive woman she is. If she is a woman, anyway.

But what does she bring to France?

The tourism revenue of France is many billions per year. A good part comes from museums like the Louvre. Most people immediately think of the ticket fee, charged to visit the Louvre, to see the Mona Lisa among other National Treasures. However, the ticket fee is only a very minor income, not even enough to pay for the maintenance of the museum.

The sales of the museum gift shop amount to about the same amount as the ticket sales. I don't have the statistics of the Louvre at hand, but world wide museum statistics are fairly uniform in this respect.

Where are the other revenues?

People travel to Paris to see the Mona Lisa. A part of the travelling cost is spent in France. Hotels, Restaurants, Taxis, Trains, etc. Each tourist spends about 100 to 500 Euros per day during his stay in France.

24,000,000 tourists spending 100 Euro each = 2,400,000,000 Euros

For every hour we can entice the tourists to stay longer in France, the revenue will increase by about 100,000,000 Euros.

Good money, distributed among the tax payers.

Museums are about telling a story. A good story teller can fascinate the listener so much that he forgets time.

Nature has her way of reminding the people of time. After few hours thirst and not much later hunger, are good reminders. In fact, museum statistics tell, that after 2 hours people are ready for a snack, coffee, or at least water. What does this little bottle of "Evian" bubbly water cost?

Keep the people's attention for 4 hours and they are ready for a meal. Some very good restaurants not far from the Louvre, is that a coincidence?

If you manage to keep the tourists in town for more than 6 hours, they will spend the night. Hotels have a lot of staff. Many jobs there.

This is looking at National Treasures from the tax payers view. Tax payers want a job, their daily bread and butter and glass of red wine. At least the French tax payers want.

How would this story look like for our USA friends? Should I talk about the Smithsonian? No, I give you a more average Joe comparison. Actually we can call him Mel.

Mel Fisher was a chicken farmer but after a long and tenacious quest, he became one of the most famous treasure hunters, recovering a vast treasure from the shipwreck of the galleon "Atocha".

He sold a part of his treasure. Another part he donated to a not for profit foundation. Over the years, the revenues from the foundation's treasure exhibit, where his story is told to the avid listening tourists, is many times more than all the treasure that Mel Fisher ever sold.

And of course, the revenues the Mel Fisher story generated for Key West, where the exhibit is located and Florida in general, is many many times more than all the treasure that Mel Fisher ever found.

Mel Fisher's treasure is also a "National Treasure"

 

[Oceanscience]

I'll throw one out there that has been discussed in a few circles on both sides of the fence. The idea is basically Artifact Stewardship. The artifacts remain the property of the state, but I can become the steward for a particular artifact for a particular "donation" to the finder. Say I find 10,000 gold coins, the state needs about 100 of those for representative examples and collections that can be sent to other entities for study. Currently the state would also be charged with storing, securing, and preserving the other 9,900 coins (the liability).

If I sold the stewardship for 1 coin for $2,000 I could benefit from my hard work and get the funding I need to go after my next target. The "steward" maintains possession of the artifact and it's paperwork...if archaeologists deem it necessary to study this artifact again in person, it is the responsibility of the steward to loan it back to them until they are done, at which point it returns to the steward.

Of course this has TONS of merit and pitfalls alike. If the steward dies and the family sells it...we broke rule #1 in the archie handbook. It isn't perfect, but it's the closest thing I have seen. Trying to sell a "stewardship" would likely be a difficult proposition also...but it could be as limited as a line on the certificate stating that this artifact may be requested for further study, letting the treasure hunter "sell" the artifact with the stipulation that the state can request it for a length of time if needed.

I don't know, but it's a thought.

Jason

You have some good points there.

Stewardship, to be responsible for curating, preserving and safe keeping of a part of the "National Treasure". I can see a lot of rules, regulations, safeguards and insurance needed to satisfy the fellow citizen, or let's just continue calling them tax payers.

But it is an idea of how to finance the search and recovery of the treasure. Any idea is better than no idea. I can even say that is the best idea presented in the thread so far.

Does anybody have a better idea?

I have a few ideas of my own, but I rather wait and give some other forum members a chance. (I talk too much, should listen more)

Maybe a hint?

Internet?