When a treasure legend becomes a reality.

[BillA]

yes but . . . .
Greeks and Persians have been going at it for 4,000+ years that we have writing
and fragging in 'nam was for the same incompetence

Darius

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Healthy skepticism in not a bad thing but skepticism coupled with pessimism is recipe of never achieving anything....

kanacki, good to hear from you. Feel free to PM me anytime

Re.: your quote above: I don't know where the difference between "skepticism" and "pessimism" lies. Because to a lot of people , ANY "skepticism" is, by their definition "pessimism".

Call it whatever you want, but .... as for being a recipe for "not achieving anything " (in regards to our MD'ing / TH'ing hobby):

It is actually QUITE THE OPPOSITE ! Skepticism allows the md'r to spend his time on likely locations. Not wild goose chases. For example, as you can tell, I'm QUITE SKEPTICAL (I have the nick-name: "Killjoy" among my hunting buddies, haha). But I hold probably the most records for any CA hunter (if not the entire USA) for various goals. Like in CA, among the top 2 or 3 hunters with number of Spanish and Mexican reales (well over 100, which is a difficult feat in CA) . And the most gold coins (single fumble fingers, not cache-finds) of 15 so far, etc....

So .... on the contrary : Some critical thinking (call it skepticism, pessimism, or whatever you want) actually helps out in our hobby. Not hinders.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I was fortunate to have visited the Archaeological Museum in Heraklion, Crete a couple weeks ago. ...

Mind-boggling pix. Thanx for sharing ! And I'll bet that all of those were not the result of someone chasing a TH'ing legend. That , instead, they were just digging around likely ruins, stumbled onto them, etc.... Not "legends" .

 

[sdcfia]

Mind-boggling pix. Thanx for sharing ! And I'll bet that all of those were not the result of someone chasing a TH'ing legend. That , instead, they were just digging around likely ruins, stumbled onto them, etc.... Not "legends" .

Don't know about the particulars in these cases. You're right though - most archaeological finds are surprises, although it's safe to say that the diggers are aware that, aside from normal utility items routinely recovered at virgin sites (that now have great value in their own right due to their age and workmanship), it's also true that humans have always had a tendency to stash valuables in secret locations. It's highly unlikely that any surviving "legends" led to these particular finds.

The whole realm of treasure legends is addicting. For me, the most interesting aspect has always been not what people believe, but why they believe. Human nature is quite predictive.

 

[KANACKI]

Don't know about the particulars in these cases. You're right though - most archaeological finds are surprises, although it's safe to say that the diggers are aware that, aside from normal utility items routinely recovered at virgin sites (that now have great value in their own right due to their age and workmanship), it's also true that humans have always had a tendency to stash valuables in secret locations. It's highly unlikely that any surviving "legends" led to these particular finds.

The whole realm of treasure legends is addicting. For me, the most interesting aspect has always been not what people believe, but why they believe. Human nature is quite predictive.

sdcfia

Really?

Two lessons I have learned from life in regards of keeping a long marriage of nearly 40 years? Never try to predict what a women is thinking and never have an opinion. Because I can guarantee you once put a ring is on their finger you become so wrong.

Kanacki

 

[sdcfia]

sdcfia

Really?

Two lessons I have learned from life in regards of keeping a long marriage of nearly 40 years? Never try to predict what a women is thinking and never have an opinion. Because I can guarantee you once put a ring is on their finger you are wrong.

Kanacki

Well, re human nature, I was referring to the way mental conditioning so often and so easily replaces critical thinking in humans - treasure hunting is a prime example, but so are most other more subtle aspects of life on earth.

Marriage might be looked at as treasure hunting too, I guess. Oh yeah, been there, done it twice before, failed for the reasons you mentioned. This time, however, an LLC was created instead of a ring exchange and has worked much better for 15 years so far. Obligating the rest of my life never worked well for me, but then, looking back I guess my dirt nap farewell might be, "Just Passin' Through".

 

[KANACKI]

Hello Sdcfia

The sad truth every county conditions it masses not to have critical thinking. From the cradle to the grave we are manipulated. Buy the time most get to adulthood critical thinking for most is already extinct. Because manipulative forces outside have molded us into expendable commodity to be programmed what to think and how to react.

Here is funny way how opinion polls get manipulated...below.



Just a way manipulated data can be represented as factual data so one can put forward their agenda.

Kanacki

 

[GoDeep]

Awesome Treasures, but I don't consider these finds those of "Legends" as in a "unverifiable tale handed down over time". As is the case with human nature, no doubt after some of these treasures are found, we try to attribute some legend foretelling of their existence. The entire expanse of Europe is full of Legends about buried or lost treasure, especially Roman, so finding a treasure doesn't necessarily confirm a legend.

Real treasure exists no doubt and when it's found, it usually isn't found due to the hallmarks of a Legend: deathbed confessions, retreating armies, lost mines, on the run outlaw gangs, stone markers, hand scrawled treasure maps, etc (if anyone can point me to some treasures that were found due to a "Legend" i'd be sincerely interested to read about them). It's been my experience that found treasures of the world were found in one of 3 ways: (1) Through credible and verifiable documentation that it was lost (think shipwreck manifests), (2) randomly (this is especially common in Europe with its expansive and rich history) or lastly, (3) digging in known or probable sites that were ceremonial, ancient cities, temples, burial grounds etc.

 

[sdcfia]

Awesome Treasures, but I don't consider these finds those of "Legends" as in a "unverifiable tale handed down over time". As is the case with human nature, no doubt after some of these treasures are found, we try to attribute some legend foretelling of their existence. The entire expanse of Europe is full of Legends about buried or lost treasure, especially Roman, so finding a treasure doesn't necessarily confirm a legend.

Real treasure exists no doubt and when it's found, it usually isn't found due to the hallmarks of a Legend: deathbed confessions, retreating armies, lost mines, on the run outlaw gangs, stone markers, hand scrawled treasure maps, etc (if anyone can point me to some treasures that were found due to a "Legend" i'd be sincerely interested to read about them). It's been my experience that found treasures of the world were found in one of 3 ways: (1) Through credible and verifiable documentation that it was lost (think shipwreck manifests), (2) randomly (this is especially common in Europe with its expansive and rich history) or lastly, (3) digging in known or probable sites that were ceremonial, ancient cities, temples, burial grounds etc.

Good points. It's not surprising why so many US treasure legends exist in the public domain (some even may have a factual origin), but a person has to wonder why the "facts" presented in these tales are going to be useful in any way for recovering riches. Cognitive dissonance can be a nasty thorn for ordinarily level-headed folks who need to "believe."

On the other hand, many actual recoveries have been made. These are typically things such as post-hole banks or from information gleaned from private family records - things that remain unknown to the public at large.

 

[BillA]

. . . .
The sad truth every county conditions it masses not to have critical thinking. From the cradle to the grave we are manipulated. Buy the time most get to adulthood critical thinking for most is already extinct. Because manipulative forces outside have molded us into expendable commodity to be programmed what to think and how to react.
. . . . .

public education was never intended to produce independent thinkers,
compliant workers were the goal of Germain public education (1st in our world),
leaders and thinkers were always intended to receive an education appropriate to their role

as an old man I can reflect on education as I have experienced it, and seen it in other cultures; and the manifest failure of the US post WWII has to be the educational system - the lives and resources wasted beggars description. The saddest part is that the populace is sooooo conditioned now as to accept the worthless diplomas as equalling "education". "The Ugly American" is an archaic label given to yanks that reflected 50 years ago on US education; and it has not changed (expat speaking).

and this applies to treasure hunting just how?
discrimination - sorting the wheat from the chaff (how on earth did discrimination become a bad word? it is my only good trait)
take it as a given -> all believers will fail (pick one's path, destination the same)
skepticism is a survival trait

perhaps a thread of treasure searches that failed?
lol

Zeke

 

[sdcfia]

public education was never intended to produce independent thinkers,
compliant workers were the goal of Germain public education (1st in our world),
leaders and thinkers were always intended to receive an education appropriate to their role

as an old man I can reflect on education as I have experienced it, and seen it in other cultures; and the manifest failure of the US post WWII has to be the educational system - the lives and resources wasted beggars description. The saddest part is that the populace is sooooo conditioned now as to accept the worthless diplomas as equalling "education". "The Ugly American" is an archaic label given to yanks that reflected 50 years ago on US education; and it has not changed (expat speaking).

and this applies to treasure hunting just how?
discrimination - sorting the wheat from the chaff (how on earth did discrimination become a bad word? it is my only good trait)
take it as a given -> all believers will fail (pick one's path, destination the same)
skepticism is a survival trait

perhaps a thread of treasure searches that failed?
lol

Zeke

As George Carlin once observed, our educators begin by inoculating us with the big narrative, then prepare us to run the machines and do the paperwork. One can step out of line and educate himself, but it's hard to swim against a strong current.

 

[BillA]

this world is insane and tragic, George Carlin made it funny as well

Dofus

 

[namxat]

What my general problem with the discussion here is: It starts with "Legends come true", yet the example treasure troves presented (which absolutely are worth the attention and the drooling) are discovered by pure chance.

While I think that esp. in Europe we have enough treasure in the ground for generations to hunt for, I am always sceptical about the stories and legends.

Greets Namxat


P.S: BillA, the German education system is no longer the best. The liberals destroyed it from several sides. If you look at admissions in the Ivy league, you know were the best education is now: Asia.

 

[BillA]

Namxat, yes but . . . .
some Chinese just paid $6.5m to get their kid into USC (UCLA? all the same to me)
I did not mean that German public education was the best (probable at that time), merely that it was the first organized on broadly applied principles.

Agreed by me that an accidental find pursuant to some other activity is not "treasure hunting"

unless there are turtles, lol

Atilla

 

[b3y0nd3r]

Hello Tom

I agree in most part but in some minor points I am not bothering splitting hairs over we just have to agree to disagree, Of course treasure hunting magazine are full of BS they are there to sell magazines. Treasure Books are there to flog books. Newspaper stories are there to sell stories. Even all the reality Treasure hunting are BS. The Point I was trying to make not all treasure legends are just silly stories. It was not my intention as you have taken it for using as "justification for all other treasure legends" must be real.

I suppose it comes down cognitive bias we all have in our own life experiences. I have won the so called "lottery of life three times." To win it once was amazing but 3 times was a blessing. I will not tell what where and when. The money is in my bank not yours baby! In fact I rather you not believe me at all.

I have been retired traveled around the world for the last 20 years. I must confess I love researching the old treasure yarns. The people behind these searches and the many failures. In most part more these people are more interesting in the treasure itself. I research treasure legends as well as my colleagues. We researched stories get to get to the truth not just to prove them. As I said 99% are just legends. But there are few are not so easily dismissed.

Now I do not care to disclose which ones "Why should I? As it has been my companies hard work over many years. Traveled to various universities, archive and libraries all over the world. Regardless if you believe me or not. Firstly and foremost I will always protect my family business interests and never leave myself open for any future incrimination.

While I imagine your negative experience in Mexico also influences your own cognitive bias. Because of your negative experiences of being sucked into village treasure tale after treasure tale. Yes I can see how foolish it was to believe in such tales. The problem I have with your bias is because of your failure in Mexico you have written off "all" treasure legends being silly legends.

In fact probably 90% of worlds population would agree with you. Does it mean your totally correct that "all" treasure legends are just legends? No

We was working in South America like you in Mexico every town had a treasure yarn. Its part of the folk lore. Most are just legends. One such interesting treasure legend refers to 2 lost mining settlements in South America. But according to you all treasure legends are just legends. Is it not?

Would you like to see some real Original documents....Oh wait according your comments anyone can find document to support their belief so whats point of it all? I could show you gold bars oh wait they can be faked. So we end up into useless and pretty pointless pissing match . Even if I met you in person and put a gold bar in your hand you can say it was from somewhere else. (love your saying wack a mole game ) . So its pointless discussion.

It reminds me of a joke there two young boys one an optimist the other pessimist. The pessimist was given a big load of toys and he Complained in disgust "There all probably cheaply made and going to fall apart." The Optimist was given a big pile of horse manure and exclaimed in delight "There is got to be a horse under there somewhere?"

The truth lies somewhere between the two ends of the extremes.

I like to think I am somewhere in the middle.

Kanacki

I am glad I stumbled onto this thread. You made some excellent points while also bringing to light my own personal theories on why certain skeptics are so...skeptical You write well!

 

[KANACKI]

My apologies in advance

I had been in mining exploration industry for over 30 years working with geologists in drilling operations contracted to small mining companies looking for next big strike. These companies are chiefly exploration companies looking to be bought up by bigger companies who have expertise, capital and resources to develop working mine.

Mostly in New Guinea, South east Asia and finally in South America such as Bolivia, Peru and Ecuador. But the year 2000 there was slump in mining exploration gold prices was at an all time and I some of my associates became obsolete. At 50 no company wants 50 year old humping his ass through jungles. The mining game is ruthless my friends. And when your of no use your thrown to the wolves.

However in that 30 year you do build up relationships with people. A special bond with people you work with especially living in remote conditions in jungle. Some times you ended up knowing more about your work mates lives than your own family.

In the process we built up a relationship with Peter Macnab can truly be described as an old PNG hand. Me growing up in New Guinea we had much in common. We was some of the "Whiteys" left behind after independence. In one way or another Mr Macnab, who sees himself as much as a prospector as a technical geologist, has been involved in the discovery of at least half a dozen major gold and copper/gold deposits in Papua New Guinea.

With then business partner Ken Rehder, he cast the first modern explorer's eyes over what became the rich mine run by Brisbane-based Lihir Gold. I and my associates working for drilling company under contract to them. Money was tight for the company and a share offering. Part wage part shares. However it depended on what financial commitment you had to the amount of share offer you would take up. So it varies between the people involved. Ken and Peter urged us to take as much of the company shares as possible as it would go off.

At first it seemed we had taken the bad option. Some in frustration sold off their shares. We kept ours. Feeling somewhat burned. To make matters worse in 2000 basically unemployed with very little exploration work being done. But then later Newcrest Mining wanted all the Lihir Gold shares. Our Lihir Gold shares at the time was only 3 dollars 30 cents I think from memory to get our shares because wanted a total 100% merger they offered a share fore share exchange. So they could liquidate Lihir gold as publicly listed company. However Newcrest the 5th largest miner in the world shares was worth about 71 dollars a share at the time.

We had a windfall of 18 million between us. I cannot explain the exhilaration we had when we revived the offer. Its the closest thing to have a rock and roll concert in brain. As part of the trio we still laugh about it. I remember My old mate Crow that pirate of a beach bum phoning me. He sounded like parrot on speed. Him laughing and howling spitting and stuttering out words real share share price offer.... At first I thought he flipped? Yet at first I thought he was taking the piss out of me. A godsend because we was really out on our asses at the time.

So you see we profited from relationships with people we has in our limited capacity worked with. One thing if you want to succeed you need to be around people who has the hunger and professionalism and a passion for what they do..

Peter and Ken was instructed by Australian Bureau of Mineral Resources in the then Territory of Papua and New Guinea from 1965 to 1970, taking part in much of the exploratory mapping of the country. They had been given the letter and a map that was in the Governor Generals Office in Australia Since the German Province was mandated to Australia after world War I. The story got out about a German missionary who was attempting to start a plantation on Lihir island was burying a dead horse as discovered what he thought was gold?

The German died just before 1914 before World war I and The German Colonial authorities never had chance to confirm the discovery. The letter was captured with piles of other documents when Australian troops captured the German Governors residence when they invaded German New Guinea in 1915.

Nothing was done in decade of the 1920's after the war because the letter was in a batch of unread documents. However rumors of an island full of gold became legendary in the 1930's. However most miners thought just a camp fire legend. Yet in the 1930s the letter was discovered and newspaper article came out fueling wild speculation. 2 predominate West Australia prospectors was sent to search the island of this alleged gold discovery. Yet this was before WW2 and nothing came of it.

Hell Even I growing up heard story as a kid in Rabual of an island where there was lot of gold in the 1950's. Most laughed at it as rainbow talk. My dad though it was just a campfire story. Sadly he never lived to see it eventually grew into an amazing discovery. Little did people realize there was some truth what was thought just fairy tale.

While technically it was not a lost mine but just a reported gold deposit. Still a dead Germans letter and story of gold on an island and become legendary fireside tale in the 1930s with turned out to be real.




I have much more to post, However I have more pressing engagements in regards to business. I have this illusion I am retired however being director of few companies I have obligations to fulfill. Even if I am retired from day to day operations of them. Those more pressing than my slow typing here. I have never graduated from being a one finger typist

Several key points I will make clear. When it comes to lost treasure lost mines etc... First thing you should never do is suggest treasure or portray yourself as a treasure hunter or anything connected to a treasure "legend" even if there is in part a connection?

When dealing with governments or academics. Regardless of how viable a project may be its the "kiss of death" The term treasure hunter is an F word when presenting a business proposal. The term treasure hunter is ingrained in public imagination spoon fed by Hollywood. Using the term "Treasure hunter" is like putting "looter" next to your name. To politicians and public servants to be seen dealing with people who portray that persona is like that is like a deer in the gun sights to a political career.

Secondly if you are person by yourself as a single entity trying to get a government to take you serious forget it . You will be written off as an egocentric or dismissed as part of tin foil hat brigade. As you well know there is hell of lot of them running around.

Thirdly to companies and investors, the term "Legend" is hardly word you would put into prospectus of Project either.

While I have said numerous times to the point of having a nose bleed. Some treasures have some truth to them "but not was vast majority".

But no Academic Company director or Mining professional would ever admit that either. Why would they it would be a kiss of Death to their career. So in effect avoid such references like the plague.

Exploration companies do unofficially take notice of treasure legends. while indeed they quite rightly have a cautious eye and use Critical skepticism with such stories. They do on occasion do find traces of legends have has assisted them determining a place to search. Yet its not solely on a legend either. If your a exploration company, it the last thing you would ever say on prospectus the above words of treasure, legend. If they did with bad connotation the those words have. The investor wallet closes baby as faster than some people here can jump to conclusions.

No once again my apologies being a slow singe fingered typist. It quite an effort to share these posts.

As I said in my first post some times treasure legends some times turn out to true. While most have adopted the official stance of academics and people more interested in the status quo because they fear to challenge a given notion. that to me is not critical thinking.

Now Tom you have been influenced by your experience, And I read some there your search stage coach stops. Well well done. I imagine you find maps accounts of old stops yes? , But you have to admit that is also speculation that some one has "dropped some coins".

A treasure legend if properly researched to discover if there is any truth in it? and primary documents show proof of some treasure existed? Then there is not much difference than what you and I are doing.

Treasure hunting is never an exact science. All research does is increase your odds finding treasure.

I have more to show you.... But time my friend. Business matters takes place first.

Until next time....

Kanacki

 

[BillA]

Kanacki, had to laugh at the stock for wages; I wound up with 1.7M shares now at $0.03, and no buyers

Donkey

edit: had to add that the co which 'gave' me the 1.7M shares moved its production to China and will now go bankrupt due to the "Trump Tariff"
win some, lose some

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Awesome Treasures, but I don't consider these finds those of "Legends" as in a "unverifiable tale handed down over time". As is the case with human nature, no doubt after some of these treasures are found, we try to attribute some legend foretelling of their existence. The entire expanse of Europe is full of Legends about buried or lost treasure, especially Roman, so finding a treasure doesn't necessarily confirm a legend.

Real treasure exists no doubt and when it's found, it usually isn't found due to the hallmarks of a Legend: deathbed confessions, retreating armies, lost mines, on the run outlaw gangs, stone markers, hand scrawled treasure maps, etc (if anyone can point me to some treasures that were found due to a "Legend" i'd be sincerely interested to read about them). It's been my experience that found treasures of the world were found in one of 3 ways: (1) Through credible and verifiable documentation that it was lost (think shipwreck manifests), (2) randomly (this is especially common in Europe with its expansive and rich history) or lastly, (3) digging in known or probable sites that were ceremonial, ancient cities, temples, burial grounds etc.

Excellent post go-deep. Just hope that doesn't qualify as "badgering"

I would also add that : I've seen the phenomenon where: When someone has accidentally stumbled upon a cache, they instinctively study the surrounding terrain , to see if there had been any "marker clues". Like that couple in CA a few years ago, who stumbled upon the rusty cans filled with gold coins (d/t the top of one of the cans protruding from the ground) : They were on record as saying that there was a curious outcropping of rock, or a tree with an uncanny shape nearby, etc..... As if to imply that there were "marker clues" there by whomever buried them.

But this is just the trick of selective memory. No doubt, I bet, that anywhere else they randomly stop and look around, they can likewise find uncanny squiggle on rock, or an odd-shaped tree. blah blah

 

[Ditlihi]

Excellent post go-deep. Just hope that doesn't qualify as "badgering"

I would also add that : I've seen the phenomenon where: When someone has accidentally stumbled upon a cache, they instinctively study the surrounding terrain , to see if there had been any "marker clues". Like that couple in CA a few years ago, who stumbled upon the rusty cans filled with gold coins (d/t the top of one of the cans protruding from the ground) : They were on record as saying that there was a curious outcropping of rock, or a tree with an uncanny shape nearby, etc..... As if to imply that there were "marker clues" there by whomever buried them.

But this is just the trick of selective memory. No doubt, I bet, that anywhere else they randomly stop and look around, they can likewise find uncanny squiggle on rock, or an odd-shaped tree. blah blah

Blah, blah....Tom, Darlin, I had hopes that you might have loosened up a bit in my absence but I see you are still terrorizing the natives, as usual. Still no gray in your world, only black and white. I'm relieved that you don't have a religious zeal or you would make the perfect terrorist with your extremist tendencies. Still love ya, but still think you ought to pull that stick out of your hindquarters and learn to dowse with it. Open that mind a little, just not so far your brain falls out. Don't be afraid of your instinct, just use your intellect alongside of it.

Other than that....how the hell are ya? Glad to see you are still here.

 

[Ditlihi]

And Kanacki, LOVE this thread! Good to see you back again as well.