Whats going on in the DR?

[ScubaFinder]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

anytime you go after artifacts in order to sell them, you are doing treasure hunting, not archaeology.

Sorry, but you should come to work with me for a few days. For every second I spend "boasting" about the wrecks I have ALREADY found, I spend 50 hours writing reports and conserving, recording, photographing, and documenting artifacts of every sort. You can see a lot of them on display in museums and at university study collections all over the world.

I'm not really following your line of thinking, but you are certainly entitled to it.

 

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[Salvor6]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Alexandre, look at the shipwrecks that are being excavated now by treasure hunters. If there are 10,000 coins found that are stamped by the same dies, why display all of them? There is no knowledge to be gained by it. Why not sell part of it to finance the rest of the excavation? Bob Ballard found Phoinecian and Greek shipwrecks off the coast of Corsica 10 years ago. Why don't you excavate them? Oh, no money, right? Who is interested in hundreds of amphorae? Its the Dutch, Spanish and VOC wrecks from the 1500's to 1900's and their treasure that interest the public. Who is going to pay to see bits of rotten wood and pieces of coroded copper and lead sheathing in a museum? Its the gold, silver and jewels that fascinate the public. Why don't you stick excavating the Greek, Phonecian and Islamic wrecks and leave the treasure wrecks to the treasure hunters?

 

[Alexandre]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Who cares about Greek vessels?

I want to study Iberian shipwrecks from the Age of Discorveries because, believe it or not, we know more about Roman wrecks than we do about our ships.

Again, believe it or not, there have been only 2 Portuguese shipwrecks from that period properly excavated: the Nossa Senhora dos Martires (1606) and this one in Namibia (maybe 1533). All else has been destroyed by treasure hunters - no photos, no drawings, no plans, no nothing.

And yes, I do take a grundge against people that are deleting MY national heritage from history.

Why don't you stick with American ships?

 

[Salvor6]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Did Arquanauticas find Portuguese shipwrecks in Mozambique?

 

[Alexandre]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Did Arquanauticas find Portuguese shipwrecks in Mozambique?

Oh yes, they did. They also had one of their board members become Portugal's ministry of Culture, that's how well connected they are (were).

But now, the UNESCO convention has become law in our country since last January and new legislation, derived from it, is expected to pass down pretty soon.

Although there are more Cubans and German there than Portuguese nationals and in spite of the fact that their adress is located in one of our fiscal paradises, they will be finding themselves under the reach of the long arm of the law.

(and they are are very poor treasure hunters. and no wonder, all the goodies are in the Azores or at the mouth of the Tagus river).

 

[User]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Nice comments guys. Alexandre, you are missing a few points here that I can touch on after living and working as an amatuer archaeologist (professional salvor, whatever) in the Dominican Republic for over a year.
...
Lastly, Pedro is speaking of Dominican fishermen who are truly STEALING artifacts from wrecks and selling them to tourists. This problem exists everywhere, but Arq. Borrell has the forsight to make the problem public, and attempt to educate these fishermen, and convince them to report their findings.
...
Just thought you might like to know what the article was actually saying....and how respected most of the salvors are in that country. It's a beautiful place with a lot of really good people trying to do the right thing for world heritage, AND the people who actually hit the water and bring it up. It's a win/win situation, but like all countries there are pirates out there, taking things from all coasts, and using it only to benefit themselves. You'll be hard pressed to find many treasure hunters with the same mindset.

Exactly! I would say that Alexandre "accidentally" is missing a lot of points... It seems that local authorities (in many countries) make more efforts in destroying historical heritage than amateur archaeologists. Everybody knows it, but not Alexandre...

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Agreed, but I can also see Alexandre's point. It is true that very little true archaeology has been done on Portugese wrecks. I believe that we have one from the mid to late 1800's that we still need to study. At this point, we have only brought up a few bottles of Dutch/Portugese provenance, and we have done a general site survey. Maybe when we start excavation of that wreck Alexandre will take interest and also take note of the work we are doing. We do like to see artifacts and data get to the people who need it for study, as well as to the general public for appreciation and understanding.

The problem is that with current laws, each country decides how things are handled in it's territorial waters. The Dominican Republic has a good point in that when a ship wrecks on its coast, the survivors wash ashore and become part of their heritage too. With the native indians being wiped off the island of Hispaniola in record time, the lineage of the Dominican people is a mixture of all ships wrecked or landed there, as well as slaves brought in from Africa. We have more than our share of French, Dutch, Portugese, and English ships, as well as a few Spanish ships that can help pay for the study of the others.

If you look closely at NCR's history, you will see that we try to do a full study on every wreck we find, whether it's carrying cargo of intrinsic value or not. Each shipwreck is an interesting slice of history, but you can't get investors to pay for the search, study, and excavation when there is no chance for treasure. In my opinion, treasure is the nessecary bait that allows amatuer archaeologists to find and study shipwrecks, without the chance of treasure, you'd never find an investor to support an operation.

If somebody could ever make a good argument for keeping all of the redundant artifacts, I might change my mind a bit...but everywhere I've been there seems to be no funding or space to store the wealth of artifacts they already have. If archaeologist's motives were TRULY to preserve and study, then they would try to work WITH well-funded treasure hunters and teach us what we are doing wrong. We have that setup through doing field schools where students practice proper excavation techniques on wrecks that we concede to universities. We help, and in turn are educated as well. The lack of a degree does NOT make me a smash and grab treasure hunter, and I don't see any indication the the same degree makes a degreed archaeologist any better at the job than myself. If they think they care more about history and study than I do, they are wrong.

I am one of those "poor" treasure hunters, because I am not in it for the treasure. Sure it would be nice, and hell yes I'd like to pay back the investors that allowed me to study 30+ shipwrecks while trying to find a valuable one. If I can do that with artifacts that the public would love to own, and that the archaeologists already have more of than they need for study, then what exactly is the problem with that model. Closed minded "academic archaeology" is what is allowing thousands of shipwrecks to be dismantled by mother ocean...isn't "some" data collected by amatuers better than no data and no idea where the ships wrecks are?

I'm of the opinion that there can be some common ground in the middle somewhere where everyone gets what they need. The investors get a little gold, the amatuer archaeologists get the thrill of discovery and a paycheck, and the archaeologists get good data from the wreck. The museums still get beautiful artifacts, the universities still get study collections, the world finally gets to see a small piece of our nautical heritage. If academic archaeology had the funds and resources to find and study maybe 20 new wrecks per year, I might step aside and let them do it. As it stands, if guys like us don't do it, it will not get done at all. The "state of equilibrium" argument is quickly being dismantled by local pirates who are truly desimating and looting the wrecks in every country in the world. THIS is what is robbing you of your heritage, and WE (the treasure hunters) are the only ones doing anything to try to save what we can from the elements and looters.

I'm getting long winded, but one last point. How important is it to most of humanity whether a boat was built on 18" or 24" centers, or what year exactly they switched from astrolabe to sextant, etc. The public wants National Geographic specials showing a little research, a little search, a little diving, and some cool artifacts with the basic mission of the boat, what she was doing, and why she went down. Outside of that what can we really learn that is truly important to humanity or history. Sometimes there are exceptions, but 90% of the shipwrecks are just common sailors on a common mission who had a bad day. The academics act like every single wreck might change the foundations of human history, and we'll all miss it if an amatuer finds the wreck first. This is an absurd, one-sided argument that nobody buys into except the guys spouting it.

 

[kc10bull]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Scubafinder;

I salute you and your teams efforts, in the recovery of those ships. Your many posts, and post by others on TNet have brought back to me the excitement, enjoyment, and adventure in me. It makes me want to run out of this office every day grabbing my detector and head for those undiscovered sites that we all do research on and detect, dig and discover, what is beneath the land or in the water.
If we could all work as a team and put aside out different prejudices about other expert skills, and applied our abilities as a team. Everyone would be enriched not only by the adventure as we are already traveling a road less traveled by others. But the fact that we have made new friends and broadened our knowledge and shared this adventure with people that are really on the same path that we are traveling. Your last post could not have been said any better.
Good luck, good hunting.

 

[capt dom]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

I read with great interest SCUBAFINDER' s post and thought any of you who are
following this and other postings under shipwrecks may find some interest in a book
I have written that is about to be published. Here is a copy of the cover:

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

I am looking forward to buying a copy of this. Keep us posted as to when it is available.

 

[Salvor6]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Great post Jason (as usual). And I might add, who cares how many nails are in the turn of the bilge? The archies work a shipwreck to death to extend their public funding and paycheck!

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Thanks for the compliments guys, and Dom, looking forward to your book. I too have started a book but it's not far enough along to post cover pics...I would imagine that we both touch on some similar points, looking forward to reading your take on things. To me, academic archaeology has becomee solely about impressing other archaeologists, and has little to do with the general public. You're only revered as an archaeologist if you get published in the journals that are only read (and mostly only available to) other archaeologists. I don't believe this is what the founding fathers of archaeology had in mind. I also believe this is why there is so little funding for archaeologists today, if they were presenting data that people cared about, on a public forum instead of a trade journal, there might be more people willing to sponsor their activities. But alas, I have no degree, so what could i possibly know about it. ;-)

 

[Alexandre]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Great post Jason (as usual). And I might add, who cares how many nails are in the turn of the bilge? The archies work a shipwreck to death to extend their public funding and paycheck!

If the number of nails, their type and disposition enable you to identify that wreck (been there, done that), it could save you a lot of effort, trouble and hassle. Not to mention that a positive identification might market your artifacts better at an auction..

Have a look at the Bible of Ship Fastenings:

http://books.google.pt/books?id=7qwfBestmOEC&dq=mccarthy+fasteners&source=gbs_navlinks_s

 

[Alexandre]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Agreed, but I can also see Alexandre's point. It is true that very little true archaeology has been done on Portugese wrecks. I believe that we have one from the mid to late 1800's that we still need to study. At this point, we have only brought up a few bottles of Dutch/Portugese provenance, and we have done a general site survey. Maybe when we start excavation of that wreck Alexandre will take interest and also take note of the work we are doing. We do like to see artifacts and data get to the people who need it for study, as well as to the general public for appreciation and understanding.

In my opinion, treasure is the nessecary bait that allows amatuer archaeologists to find and study shipwrecks, without the chance of treasure, you'd never find an investor to support an operation.

If somebody could ever make a good argument for keeping all of the redundant artifacts, I might change my mind a bit...but everywhere I've been there seems to be no funding or space to store the wealth of artifacts they already have. If archaeologist's motives were TRULY to preserve and study, then they would try to work WITH well-funded treasure hunters and teach us what we are doing wrong.

The lack of a degree does NOT make me a smash and grab treasure hunter, and I don't see any indication the the same degree makes a degreed archaeologist any better at the job than myself. If they think they care more about history and study than I do, they are wrong.

I am one of those "poor" treasure hunters, because I am not in it for the treasure. Sure it would be nice, and hell yes I'd like to pay back the investors that allowed me to study 30+ shipwrecks while trying to find a valuable one. If I can do that with artifacts that the public would love to own, and that the archaeologists already have more of than they need for study, then what exactly is the problem with that model. Closed minded "academic archaeology" is what is allowing thousands of shipwrecks to be dismantled by mother ocean...isn't "some" data collected by amatuers better than no data and no idea where the ships wrecks are?

I'm of the opinion that there can be some common ground in the middle somewhere where everyone gets what they need. The investors get a little gold, the amatuer archaeologists get the thrill of discovery and a paycheck, and the archaeologists get good data from the wreck. The museums still get beautiful artifacts, the universities still get study collections, the world finally gets to see a small piece of our nautical heritage. If academic archaeology had the funds and resources to find and study maybe 20 new wrecks per year, I might step aside and let them do it. As it stands, if guys like us don't do it, it will not get done at all. The "state of equilibrium" argument is quickly being dismantled by local pirates who are truly desimating and looting the wrecks in every country in the world. THIS is what is robbing you of your heritage, and WE (the treasure hunters) are the only ones doing anything to try to save what we can from the elements and looters.

I'm getting long winded, but one last point. How important is it to most of humanity whether a boat was built on 18" or 24" centers, or what year exactly they switched from astrolabe to sextant, etc. The public wants National Geographic specials showing a little research, a little search, a little diving, and some cool artifacts with the basic mission of the boat, what she was doing, and why she went down. Outside of that what can we really learn that is truly important to humanity or history. Sometimes there are exceptions, but 90% of the shipwrecks are just common sailors on a common mission who had a bad day. The academics act like every single wreck might change the foundations of human history, and we'll all miss it if an amatuer finds the wreck first. This is an absurd, one-sided argument that nobody buys into except the guys spouting it.

Hey Scubafinder, do you have a name?

I can relate to all that you are talking about.

Let me entrust you with a secret: not every guy with a degree in archaeology is an archaeologist and not all archaeologists have a degree in archaeology.

Now, that said, a few points: I really can see where the National Geographic bit is going - been there, done that. Here I am, with the complete hull of a Spanish galleon, all clad in lead sheathing, a complete keel and the starboard surviving for up to the main deck and here's the guy from Geo asking: "where's the gold?".

It's like the Namibia wreck: a ship of gold lost in a beach of diamonds. That do capture your mind, and here come the flashing lights, and the public's recognition. And, yes, you think - I have to keep on looking for treasure wrecks. Fame, glory, investors, they all will come flocking to me. So forget about all those tramp ships that crossed the ocean, forget about slavers and merchantmen carrying wine or molasses, forget about phoenician ships with nothing but millenia old sand inside their holds.

But then, if you look around, you will find that there are people, not funded by taxpayers, that are excavating wrecks, not selling the artifacts but producing solid gold scientific papers.

Take INA, for example.

I have worked with INA for 3 years, and all the money they got for aiplane fares, meals, survey equipment was from private sponsors.

Is it hard? It is. But you can survive also on (god forbids) taxpayers money. I know that that is a very foreign concept to American born and bred people, but in Europe the State is proud of it's heritage. And sometimes, the Heritage gives money back, too. The Wasa Museum is a money making machine. And most of the top visited countries continue to be on the European continent, Spain and France being always number 1 or number 2 (and they certainly are countries that do protect well their heritage).

Anyhow, if you ever want archival research done on that Portuguese wreck of yours, let me know. I love a challenge.

(I have uncovered in the archives a most fantastic Portuguese wreck (no gold inside, alas) in the Caribbean and I might drop by your part of the world next year in order to help search for it. I am afraid I am not at the libertyto discuss it here)

 

[ScubaFinder]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Alexandre, you are correct about European countries being more interested in financing heritage projects, I wish the "new world" would join that ideology. Yes I have a name, it's Jason Nowell...I have nothing to hide. I started with the name ScubaSeeker on here, but after finding my first coins on the San Miguel de Archangel in Jupiter Inlet about 3 years ago, my friends here on TNET decided to rename me ScubaFinder. I know a lot of people here hide behind their their avatar name, but I am certainly not one of them. I'm relatively new to the industry, though I've been metal detecting since I was 10.

I don't believe that the non-treasure ships are less important or less interesting...it really is just a funding issue. My favorite artifact I have ever found was part of a shackle mold....we have found several slave shackles, but when we found the mold and figured out what it was, I was astonished. Being from the new world, our history is what interests me the most. I would LOVE to excavate a phonecian or Roman wreck in the Med, but I have no options for that endeavor right now.

One of my dream wrecks is to go after the apostle Paul's shipwreck on Malta...some have claimed to have found anchors from the wreck, but based on the scripture I believe she is on the other side of the island from these anchors. Read Acts 27 for a great description of the journey and wreck written in great detail by Luke. To me that would be much more interesting to find than another Atocha...but one good galleon could allow me to finance that endeavor by myself. I just don't want anyone thinking I'm only interested in the gold....for most of the world this is true, but for me it's more about the history and the search. Sure I'd love to get wealthy from my work on shipwrecks, but I'd spend most of it looking for more wrecks. I don't have any bad motives or intentions, I just want to do what makes me happy. I will do it, whether academic archaeology likes it or not, but I'd be better at it if they at least considered that we both have the same goals, motivation, and abilities.

Jason

 

[pat1011]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Who cares about Greek vessels?

I want to study Iberian shipwrecks from the Age of Discorveries because, believe it or not, we know more about Roman wrecks than we do about our ships.

Again, believe it or not, there have been only 2 Portuguese shipwrecks from that period properly excavated: the Nossa Senhora dos Martires (1606) and this one in Namibia (maybe 1533). All else has been destroyed by treasure hunters - no photos, no drawings, no plans, no nothing.

And yes, I do take a grundge against people that are deleting MY national heritage from history.

Why don't you stick with American ships?

well... why do you think that they are yours? or cargo? most of that gold, silver, gems were stolen from native people of south or north america. why spaniards and portugese want all that back when it is not their but looted from those countries. why people think that when some ship sailed to america and put their flag there all what was there was automatically their? people there already had their kings, chiefs, gods... all metals/gems/resources transported from there is just stolen property. some people talk too much about national heritage but what that means - stealing resources, enslaving and exterminating native population, forcing their way of life/beliefs to others without their contest by means of brutal power. and now this is reminding me to old saying when thief is shouting to catch another one...

if you find some so called "spanish" gold say in form of coins - who is original owner of that? might be we have to try to trace that gold electrochemically or by some testing as where it was mined?

 

[Alexandre]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Hey Pat, tell me.... if you find a Spanish coin, do you keep it or do test it electrochemically and then you send it to the country where the ore has come from?

 

[pat1011]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

when shomething with historical value is found it is your duty to contact authorities. that will be reseached, valued and you will get your share of fame or money. my point was that it is a joke to claim that gold or whatever found on board of several centuries old lost shipwreck belong to country of that ship origin.
it is the same as if germany will be claiming ownership of treasures found on board of their sunken u-boats.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Alexandre, you are correct about European countries being more interested in financing heritage projects, I wish the "new world" would join that ideology. Yes I have a name, it's Jason Nowell...I have nothing to hide. I started with the name ScubaSeeker on here, but after finding my first coins on the San Miguel de Archangel in Jupiter Inlet about 3 years ago, my friends here on TNET decided to rename me ScubaFinder. I know a lot of people here hide behind their their avatar name, but I am certainly not one of them. I'm relatively new to the industry, though I've been metal detecting since I was 10.

I don't believe that the non-treasure ships are less important or less interesting...it really is just a funding issue. My favorite artifact I have ever found was part of a shackle mold....we have found several slave shackles, but when we found the mold and figured out what it was, I was astonished. Being from the new world, our history is what interests me the most. I would LOVE to excavate a phonecian or Roman wreck in the Med, but I have no options for that endeavor right now.

One of my dream wrecks is to go after the apostle Paul's shipwreck on Malta...some have claimed to have found anchors from the wreck, but based on the scripture I believe she is on the other side of the island from these anchors. Read Acts 27 for a great description of the journey and wreck written in great detail by Luke. To me that would be much more interesting to find than another Atocha...but one good galleon could allow me to finance that endeavor by myself. I just don't want anyone thinking I'm only interested in the gold....for most of the world this is true, but for me it's more about the history and the search. Sure I'd love to get wealthy from my work on shipwrecks, but I'd spend most of it looking for more wrecks. I don't have any bad motives or intentions, I just want to do what makes me happy. I will do it, whether academic archaeology likes it or not, but I'd be better at it if they at least considered that we both have the same goals, motivation, and abilities.

Jason

Jason I'm impressed, you may not care coming from me ! But I wish you luck.
Sam

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Re: What's going on in the DR?

Hey Pat, tell me.... if you find a Spanish coin, do you keep it or do test it electrochemically and then you send it to the country where the ore has come from?

Alexandre, I've been asking the same question !
I'm enjoying your post very much, you have given Tnet a new lease of life.
Cheers, Ossy