what would you do w/ the ldm if ya found it?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Never heard any stinkin voices yet, but went after Tayopa with an 'unjustified' assurance that it was mine, which proved to be true Ghost assurances or self ego ? Julia?? Course hearing voices helped in her practice.

Why would the Dutchman prove otherwise?

It will be found someday, but will it benefit the finder?

Hesh Oro, I am not certified yet, contrary to many opinions, including sgt's..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[cactusjumper]

Roy,

You wrote:

[I have to agree, and I try to follow the same approach to any person; <living or dead> until they give me reason to doubt them, I will trust their word. To take this a bit further, it is quite possible that in the two most popular versions of the LDM, while some of the info may well be unrelated and does not properly belong attached to the LDM, it is also possible that some info is correct and could be important.

In other words using the same approach, as for example with one of the clues, that the mine is a huge funnel shaped pit with a tunnel driven below it, we now know that originates with the Ludy brothers story, so we have good reason to doubt it. But what about the clue concerning the spring closer to the mine, yet the choice by Waltz to camp at another farther away? That is not in the Ludy story, and may be true - just one example.]

You may have this already, but others may not have seen it:

Name:	Jacob Ludi
Side:	Union
Regiment State/Origin:	Missouri
Regiment Name:	2 Batt'n. Mo. S.M. Cav.
Regiment Name Expanded:	2nd Battalion, Missouri State Militia Cavalry
Company:	D
Rank In:	Captain
Rank In Expanded:	Corporal
Rank Out:	Corporal
Rank Out Expanded:	Corporal
Film Number:	M390 roll 29

[TD="width: 100%"] [TABLE="class: p_resultTable"]
[TR]

_________________________________

[TABLE="class: p_resultTable"]
[TR]
[TH]Name:[/TH]
[TD]Charles Ludi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Side:[/TH]
[TD]Union[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Regiment State/Origin:[/TH]
[TD]Missouri[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Regiment Name:[/TH]
[TD]2 Batt'n., Mo. S.M. Cav.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Regiment Name Expanded:[/TH]
[TD]2nd Battalion, Missouri State Militia Cavalry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Company:[/TH]
[TD]D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank In:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank In Expanded:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank Out:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank Out Expanded:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Film Number:
[/TH]
[TD]
M390 roll 29

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

Don't get all worked up Roy. I'm only repeating what I read in Dr Glovers book. I'm a prospector not a dutchhunter. My observations are not tainted by the LDM fever. One note though. There is a reason Jacob wanted a drywasher and its not for digging in a mine but recovering small gold in the area. Gold that is still recoverable. To find the source. I don't think. It would take a lifetime. The small gold is all over the place.

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

You wrote:

<snip>

You may have this already, but others may not have seen it:

Yes but thank you for posting it, found it on the Fold3 site (pay site with much military records) and really, I wonder why more people are not interested in hunting for the lost Ludy brothers mine? Of course one could make a strong argument that it is found, and we call it the "Pit" mine. Anyway the Ludy brothers are far from fictional, which ought to encourage lost mine hunters; it looks more than likely that they had a real mine based on what evidence there is.

Sgtfda wrote

Don't get all worked up Roy. I'm only repeating what I read in Dr Glovers book. I'm a prospector not a dutchhunter. My observations are not tainted by the LDM fever. One note though. There is a reason Jacob wanted a drywasher and its not for digging in a mine but recovering small gold in the area. Gold that is still recoverable. To find the source. I don't think. It would take a lifetime. The small gold is all over the place.

If you think that is "worked up" we really have to get a political debate going! The post you are referring to was not really aimed at you specifically, we often forget that many other people read our discussions but don't post for one reason or another. Your point on the small gold being everywhere and thus making it impossible to find by using the drywasher is sound, especially for some places like Tortilla mountain, however it is my opinion that Waltz used the drywasher to trace back color to the vein. I could be wrong, when I find the Lost Dutchman I will let you know. You have known me long enough to know that I can't ever say anything in just a few words. One thing though - "observations TAINTED by the LDM fever"? Sheesh a tad harsh there amigo!

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote

Never heard any stinkin voices yet, but went after Tayopa with an 'unjustified' assurance that it was mine, which proved to be true

Ghost assurances or self ego ? Julia?? Course hearing voices helped in her practice.

Why would the Dutchman prove otherwise?

It will be found someday, but will it benefit the finder?

Hesh Oro, I am not certified yet, contrary to many opinions, including sgt's..

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hey if I heard some little "voice" telling me to look in a certain spot to find the LDM, I would probably go look! There have been times when I have gotten a funny 'feeling' while out metal detecting, and got the impression to check a particular spot (not really the place I was intending to work) and found some nice silver coins, and this has happened more than once. So I don't necessarily throw out Julia for her voices, if she even did have that affliction, or was it a pretense? Julia had some strange religious or quasi-religious activities after the period when Waltz was alive, not saying that she was faking some 'contacts' from the spirit world but people have done just that in order to boost their income.

Besides, we all know that it is hardly necessary to obtain the certificate on you, the day you realized that you had found Tayopa was the last day to remain in the world of the 'sane'! Be honest here amigo, on that day, can you say that you stayed absolutely calm, cool, and collected? And being "sane" is highly over-rated anyway, just as conforming, "fitting in with the crowd" etc; heck fitting in with a flock of sheep is not exactly a high standard right?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I will try not to "get worked up" trying to change minds.
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

Roy we are friends and can say things to each other without it becoming a issue. When I hear that little voice in my head it usually indicates danger. I always say when your butt hole puckers look out. Though things can happen so fast there is no warning. Last weekend my club had a outing at the Congress Group claims. We drove out in my friends new used decked out and decked up jeep. This in itself is danger. My friend is partners in a off road racing shop. Glenns driving already had my butt puckered so my alarm was distracted. I had a 45 I wanted to test and Glenn had a jeep he wanted to test. A bad combo. We drove up a wash full of large boulders. I would not take my vehicle in such a place. But I'm not Glenn. We get to a likely shooting spot. Glenn hands me a small empty container to shoot at. I set it down the wash. First shot I nail it and it flys down the wash where I can't see it. I walk down and find it next to the hillside under a bush. I bend down and grab it. Heard a buzzing and look up. A huge killer bee nest 2 foot from my face with.a zillion unhappy bees RUN! Thank god I can run faster than Glenn. On that one my butt hole puckered later. Just like you Cubfan when you had the lion encounter. We did not die that time. That story comes later.

 

[Somero]

I was just figuring Julia picked of the "crazy" tag for dropping everything to go into the Superstitions in the middle of summer, as for her cultural background, that may have seemed strange to folks also.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy we are friends and can say things to each other without it becoming a issue. When I hear that little voice in my head it usually indicates danger. I always say when your butt hole puckers look out. Though things can happen so fast there is no warning. Last weekend my club had a outing at the Congress Group claims. We drove out in my friends new used decked out and decked up jeep. This in itself is danger. My friend is partners in a off road racing shop. Glenns driving already had my butt puckered so my alarm was distracted. I had a 45 I wanted to test and Glenn had a jeep he wanted to test. A bad combo. We drove up a wash full of large boulders. I would not take my vehicle in such a place. But I'm not Glenn. We get to a likely shooting spot. Glenn hands me a small empty container to shoot at. I set it down the wash. First shot I nail it and it flys down the wash where I can't see it. I walk down and find it next to the hillside under a bush. I bend down and grab it. Heard a buzzing and look up. A huge killer bee nest 2 foot from my face with.a zillion unhappy bees RUN! Thank god I can run faster than Glenn. On that one my butt hole puckered later. Just like you Cubfan when you had the lion encounter. We did not die that time. That story comes later.

YOW - glad to hear you made it away from them! I have heard that it is fairly common among law enforcement people to have almost a "sixth sense" about danger, and it is wise to pay attention to it. Side thing here but I have long thought that when someone finds the LDM, it will be someone very like you, with the analytical mind of a law enforcement officer and a background in prospecting.


Somero wrote

I was just figuring Julia picked of the "crazy" tag for dropping everything to go into the Superstitions in the middle of summer, as for her cultural background, that may have seemed strange to folks also.

How true! Heck even that newspaper article about her going into the mountains to hunt for the mine was couched in terms of derision, even the title "A Queer Quest". Many people think that anyone whom would go hunting for a lost mine or treasure is mentally deranged.
Oroblanco

 

[wrmickel1]

Roy,

You wrote:

the mine is a huge funnel shaped pit with a tunnel driven below it, we now know that originates with the Ludy brothers story, so we have good reason to doubt it.

You may have this already, but others may not have seen it:

[TABLE="class: p_resultTable"] [TR] [TH]Name:[/TH] [TD]Jacob Ludi
Side:	Union
Regiment State/Origin:	Missouri
Regiment Name:	2 Batt'n. Mo. S.M. Cav.
Regiment Name Expanded:	2nd Battalion, Missouri State Militia Cavalry
Company:	D
Rank In:	Captain
Rank In Expanded:	Corporal
Rank Out:	Corporal
Rank Out Expanded:	Corporal
Film Number:	M390 roll 29

_________________________________

[TABLE="class: p_resultTable"]
[TR]
[TH]Name:[/TH]
[TD]Charles Ludi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Side:[/TH]
[TD]Union[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Regiment State/Origin:[/TH]
[TD]Missouri[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Regiment Name:[/TH]
[TD]2 Batt'n., Mo. S.M. Cav.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Regiment Name Expanded:[/TH]
[TD]2nd Battalion, Missouri State Militia Cavalry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Company:[/TH]
[TD]D[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank In:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank In Expanded:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank Out:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Rank Out Expanded:[/TH]
[TD]Private[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Film Number:[/TH]
[TD]M390 roll 29
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Take care,

Joe

Joe
I can give you or anyone else easy directions to to a funnel pit with a mine shaft drilled under it.
Its a easy trip about a mile from where you can park and would be a good little trip for some of ya during the Dutch thingy, We'll if some of you are interested let me know and I,ll post the directions.

Wrimickel1

 

[Springfield]

...I have long thought that when someone finds the LDM, it will be someone very like you, with the analytical mind of a law enforcement officer and a background in prospecting...

"Just the facts, ma'am."

 

[sgtfda]

A easy way to hide a mine. Just put a killer bee next at the entrance.

 

[roadrunner]

Joe
I can give you or anyone else easy directions to to a funnel pit with a mine shaft drilled under it.
Its a easy trip about a mile from where you can park and would be a good little trip for some of ya during the Dutch thingy, We'll if some of you are interested let me know and I,ll post the directions.

Wrimickel1

What are the directions. I would like to know.

 

[Oroblanco]

"Just the facts, ma'am."

View attachment 884403

What are you the peanut gallery now?

 

[Springfield]

What are you the peanut gallery now?

Naa ... just backing up your comment about how cops are truth seekers. As you implied - their methods are good models.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, you asked about my feelings when ------, rather hard to explain, but frankly a bit of a let down when I remembered the possibly hundreds that had spent large parts of their lives looking for it, many dying in the process when it seemed to come to me soo easily. Did I have occult or divine help? was I just plain lucky? or was it destined??

In any event once I realized that I was looking at Tayopa, I knew that the fight / search was not over, but only just starting. There was no doubt that others had been in the area before me, looking, but why didn't they actually find it. ? How / Why did it form? Why didn't any competent geologists ever find it, in fact later I was flatly rebuffed by some of the best for even suggesting that it existed...

So I now had to prove that it existed in an normally impossible location and this of course led to further investigation on Jesuit activities and on into south America, bk north, East to Europe, bk to Mexico, still moving around.

In effect, I now had to prove the extent of the Jesuit involvement in North America and their attempt then, not now ? to take over North America..

In other words I kept getting deeper, apparently not resolving anything. In fact Tayopa has been put on the back burner for the moment.

Yep, I now see that you are correct, Ya don need no stinking paper to prove that I am nuts, why couldn't I just be satisfied with finding Tayopa, opening it , and going to work in it Or am I a true treasure hunter where the hunt is the thing.

I very much suspect that the eventual finder of the LDM will find themselves in the same boat with the same basic problems effectively. It will not stop there. Jesuits, Indians, Spanish, US, and on to pre LDM data. Whoever finds it will be hooked - or destined - to keep looking. They'll be sorry in one way.

Ya understand me Cactus, Jimms, Lades & gentlemen

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[markmar]

Don Jose

You wrote " Yep, I now see that you are correct, Ya don need no stinking paper to prove that I am nuts, why couldn't I just be satisfied with finding Tayopa, opening it , and going to work in it

Or am I a true treasure hunter where the hunt is the thing. "

I like your philosophy , but is good to think it only in a wilderness area . Is better if you go to the spring , to drink . I advise you to open it just for the curiosity , to what has inside . Who knows ? Maybe it's worth . And if for you doesn't matter , do it for your childs . You have nothing to lose .
Your case , reminds me something of the past . Once , I had climbed down in a narrow vertical tunnel about 60 feet , and at the bottom of this tunnel was a small room carved in rock . On the one side of the room was a large rectangular piece of white marble like a door , which had carved on , words in the latin " If you get in , you will regret but if you don't , you will regret too " . The first thing which I did was to return for a better thinking . These words had put me in dilema , but after short time, I went back to the site and I opened the door . Was worth , and the danger , nowhere . I had understood how the carved words ,was a psychological protection of the treasure .
I believe , if I didn't open that door , for the rest of my life I would have qualms . Of course this could cost my life , but a true treasure hunter take the risk .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Marius, you are a confirmed true treasure hunter my friend. Congrats. As for Tayopa it is not being forgotten, but the reason of which Tayopa played a prominent part is now the primary goal.

Tayopa is protected and won't go anywhere for a while.

Since my family wouldn't help me in the final stages, they can wait.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'afternoon Marius: Here effectively is the workings of the Tayopa. This represents the two lower levels..At times the blocks of silver had to be cut into smaller pieces to remove it from the mine.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[wrmickel1]

What are the directions. I would like to know.

Roadrunner

Go to the first water road and park at the first parking lot, Then walk down the road about a 100
yards or so and go in to garden valley, to the north is a higher saddle with black rock at the top, go up there and head east till you can go no more you will see the pit mine there and if you go east more down the slope you will come to the mine below, about 40 ft or so down the slope, The mine goes in and curves right under the pit mine'

Its very dangerous, do not step foot in the pit mine on top, its about to cave in to the mine below,
Stay the hell out of the pit mine, CAN"T STRESS ENOUGH, KEEP OUT

Have fun and be safe, Roadrunner

Bring your camera you,ll have a good time
Wrmickel1

 

[sgtfda]

Roadrunner watch out its a Dutchman trap!

 

[roadrunner]

Roadrunner

Go to the first water road and park at the first parking lot, Then walk down the road about a 100
yards or so and go in to garden valley, to the north is a higher saddle with black rock at the top, go up there and head east till you can go no more you will see the pit mine there and if you go east more down the slope you will come to the mine below, about 40 ft or so down the slope, The mine goes in and curves right under the pit mine'

Its very dangerous, do not step foot in the pit mine on top, its about to cave in to the mine below,
Stay the hell out of the pit mine, CAN"T STRESS ENOUGH, KEEP OUT

Have fun and be safe, Roadrunner

Bring your camera you,ll have a good time
Wrmickel1

Ok,If I go east,and can go no more, how can I continue east some more if I am at the end.
If you are sending me to the pit mine, could I have the coordinates and I can come in from the East which is shorter and easier.