What is with this "Cleaning" thing????

[Iron Patch]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Cleaning them renders them as nothing more than fancy bullion at melt prices.

Yes if you're talking a low dollar coin, but anything with a high dollar value definitely will not drop to melt price.

 

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[Letsgethammered]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Cleaning them renders them as nothing more than fancy bullion at melt prices.

Yes if you're talking a low dollar coin, but anything with a high dollar value definitely will not drop to melt price.

To an extent , yes , i believe rarity will come in to it.I bought a otherwise perfect 1/4 eagle just recently at full book price in AU55 and found hairline scratches under magnification (a macro photo will reveal these) I contacted the seller to return the item as was the agreement and i was sold the item at bullion price.This is a 1910 1/4 eagle , perfect to look at in a dansco , put it under a loupe and its a different coin.
I frequent several coin forums and find thats often if not always the case , these are as you say on the lower end of the pricing scale but a $200 saving on a coin because its been cleaned is quite a difference.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Cleaning them renders them as nothing more than fancy bullion at melt prices.

Yes if you're talking a low dollar coin, but anything with a high dollar value definitely will not drop to melt price.

To an extent , yes , i believe rarity will come in to it.I bought a otherwise perfect 1/4 eagle just recently at full book price in AU55 and found hairline scratches under magnification (a macro photo will reveal these) I contacted the seller to return the item as was the agreement and i was sold the item at bullion price.This is a 1910 1/4 eagle , perfect to look at in a dansco , put it under a loupe and its a different coin.
I frequent several coin forums and find thats often if not always the case , these are as you say on the lower end of the pricing scale but a $200 saving on a coin because its been cleaned is quite a difference.

Depends who you are trying to sell it to. Some collectors would have no use even if it was free, where there are others that will pay a portion of the value to have an example at a low cost. I have sold many coins and cleaned ones do far better than holed, and even they still get more than melt if remotely interesting. Bottom line is if the picture looks good, you describe the coin as cleaned and aggressively cleaned if it's the case, you'll still get an ok price and few problems after the sale. There's A LOT of people who buy coins that know very little so eye appeal counts, even if cleaned.

 

[Letsgethammered]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Cleaning them renders them as nothing more than fancy bullion at melt prices.

Yes if you're talking a low dollar coin, but anything with a high dollar value definitely will not drop to melt price.

To an extent , yes , i believe rarity will come in to it.I bought a otherwise perfect 1/4 eagle just recently at full book price in AU55 and found hairline scratches under magnification (a macro photo will reveal these) I contacted the seller to return the item as was the agreement and i was sold the item at bullion price.This is a 1910 1/4 eagle , perfect to look at in a dansco , put it under a loupe and its a different coin.
I frequent several coin forums and find thats often if not always the case , these are as you say on the lower end of the pricing scale but a $200 saving on a coin because its been cleaned is quite a difference.

Depends who you are trying to sell it to. Some collectors would have no use even if it was free, where there are others that will pay a portion of the value to have an example at a low cost. I have sold many coins and cleaned ones do far better than holed, and even they still get more than melt if remotely interesting. Bottom line is if the picture looks good, you describe the coin as cleaned and aggressively cleaned if it's the case, you'll still get an ok price and few problems after the sale. There's A LOT of people who buy coins that know very little so eye appeal counts, even if cleaned.

Exactly right Sir , cleaning wont put me off a coin entirely or others , the Queen Anne is testimony to that , they are fine hole fillers in a collection until better comes along or in some cases so rare its nice to just have one in any condition.
The holed coins just break my heart , often in otherwise stunning condition usually.I understand why people holed the smaller higher denomination coins but ill never understand why Morgans were holed or in my case a beautiful godless florin..holed..too big bulky and heavy for anything practical like jewelry.
I didnt purposely buy the holed florin , it was part of a auction lot of british silver pre 1921.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Quite a strange thing to say with the pcgs "snob" thing , i dont think it makes a person overly fussy because they prefer an uncleaned coin.
Cleaning them renders them as nothing more than fancy bullion at melt prices.Im trying to understand why it would seem odd for an Uncirculated coin to not show signs of circulation,guess its just too early for me yet.

The "snob" thing was a poke... Although I fully understand the purpose of some kind of "authority" on coins, to, at the very least keep counterfeiting and such in check, I just feel that it has gotten out of hand... A, say PCGS graded coin will often fetch up to 10 times what it would had they not done their duty... Why? It is still the same coin... And to many collectors such as myself, it means no more to me if it is graded by them. If I made a living at coin collecting, I may feel different..As I said earlier, would a model T ford be worth less money if it was kept washed and waxed, or for heavens sake, re-painted? Not a perfect example, but again, a coin is still a coin, and old is old... I have a lot of coins that have heavy patina, and I think it makes them all the more beautiful, and I would never try to clean or remove it off the coin.. The old fellow I bought all of the "bright" coins from was just a simple coin collector, and maybe in his day the cleaner the better... They are still beautiful, I should post some pics that have not been taken and "modified" (I sharpened them at 8X normal), that show how beautiful they are under "normal" viewing conditions... I was even surprised myself at how scratched they are when I blew up the photos and added the extra sharpness and increased the bright/contrast levels.... I dont expect to get more for them then melt value anyway, which is right around $14.00

 

[Silver Surfer]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

I agree on the "holed" thing... I have seen a lot of beautiful, rare coins, that were holed... Heartbreaking. My wife suggested I "polish" the coins, but I wont... I have seen some coins that were obviously polished and being sold as proofs, but it is so easy to look through the glorious shine of the flat areas and see in the fine stamped details the wear that the polishing could not get too..
I wonder what he used to clean them. In the pics, which are macro and as I said, modified to highlight the "damage", it looks like he used a steel brush. But I think if he had, you would see those kind of scratches just by looking at the coin.. Could a toothbrush or something similar to that much to a coin? Silver must really be soft, even 90% silver... But he is long gone, so I will never know..
Sure glad that the rest of my collection is not that way. Many are striking in detail, but moderately to heavily dirty/patina'd.... Some are gorgeous with the patina, others just look flat dirty..

 

[Letsgethammered]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Quite a strange thing to say with the pcgs "snob" thing , i dont think it makes a person overly fussy because they prefer an uncleaned coin.
Cleaning them renders them as nothing more than fancy bullion at melt prices.Im trying to understand why it would seem odd for an Uncirculated coin to not show signs of circulation,guess its just too early for me yet.

The "snob" thing was a poke... Although I fully understand the purpose of some kind of "authority" on coins, to, at the very least keep counterfeiting and such in check, I just feel that it has gotten out of hand... A, say PCGS graded coin will often fetch up to 10 times what it would had they not done their duty... Why? It is still the same coin... And to many collectors such as myself, it means no more to me if it is graded by them. If I made a living at coin collecting, I may feel different..As I said earlier, would a model T ford be worth less money if it was kept washed and waxed, or for heavens sake, re-painted? Not a perfect example, but again, a coin is still a coin, and old is old... I have a lot of coins that have heavy patina, and I think it makes them all the more beautiful, and I would never try to clean or remove it off the coin.. The old fellow I bought all of the "bright" coins from was just a simple coin collector, and maybe in his day the cleaner the better... They are still beautiful, I should post some pics that have not been taken and "modified" (I sharpened them at 8X normal), that show how beautiful they are under "normal" viewing conditions... I was even surprised myself at how scratched they are when I blew up the photos and added the extra sharpness and increased the bright/contrast levels.... I dont expect to get more for them then melt value anyway, which is right around $14.00

I purposely dont own but one PCGS graded coin as i agree with what your saying , why pay 10x when with patience and persistence one can purchase the same grade coin raw.I do think more and more people are turning to these grading house slabbed coins though in the face of the onslaught of Chinese near perfect fakes.
I recently came across a chinese dealer on ebay , hes selling the highest quality of the most rare UK coins for peanuts , perfect fakes , on the hammereds he has even faked the toning and got it right and the wear circulation brings.Its ok saying , beware of chinese dealers but he is selling to someone and those someones are US and UK based and whos to say they dont flip them as the genuine article.
The day is swiftly coming if your coins are not graded or somehow authenticated ..doesnt bear thinking about.

 

[Letsgethammered]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

I agree on the "holed" thing... I have seen a lot of beautiful, rare coins, that were holed... Heartbreaking. My wife suggested I "polish" the coins, but I wont... I have seen some coins that were obviously polished and being sold as proofs, but it is so easy to look through the glorious shine of the flat areas and see in the fine stamped details the wear that the polishing could not get too..
I wonder what he used to clean them. In the pics, which are macro and as I said, modified to highlight the "damage", it looks like he used a steel brush. But I think if he had, you would see those kind of scratches just by looking at the coin.. Could a toothbrush or something similar to that much to a coin? Silver must really be soft, even 90% silver... But he is long gone, so I will never know..
Sure glad that the rest of my collection is not that way. Many are striking in detail, but moderately to heavily dirty/patina'd.... Some are gorgeous with the patina, others just look flat dirty..

Probably all that was used was a rough cloth or similar to a kitchen scrubbing pad.Even the softest of cloths will leave scratches visable under magnification.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

I agree on the "holed" thing... I have seen a lot of beautiful, rare coins, that were holed... Heartbreaking. My wife suggested I "polish" the coins, but I wont... I have seen some coins that were obviously polished and being sold as proofs, but it is so easy to look through the glorious shine of the flat areas and see in the fine stamped details the wear that the polishing could not get too..
I wonder what he used to clean them. In the pics, which are macro and as I said, modified to highlight the "damage", it looks like he used a steel brush. But I think if he had, you would see those kind of scratches just by looking at the coin.. Could a toothbrush or something similar to that much to a coin? Silver must really be soft, even 90% silver... But he is long gone, so I will never know..
Sure glad that the rest of my collection is not that way. Many are striking in detail, but moderately to heavily dirty/patina'd.... Some are gorgeous with the patina, others just look flat dirty..

Probably all that was used was a rough cloth or similar to a kitchen scrubbing pad.Even the softest of cloths will leave scratches visable under magnification.

WOW, I am glad you told me that.... Had you not, I may have ruined some good coins... I have cleaned coins before just using mild detergent and my fingers... Not anymore!! I had no idea that silver coins were that soft. I knew gold coins were.
I guess it is a good thing that no one will pay for "dug" coins, or at least not much, since I have cleaned (the soap and water thing) all of the coins I have dug..
I know that the "Purists" will never buy dug coins, but will others?
I remember the post a while back where the guy dug a 1914 D, and scratched it while digging.. Had he not scratched it, would it still be worthless because it was dug?

Lastly, the Chinese guy story is sad... If they are near perfect, what tips off the pro's to his work?

Thanks for all the info...

 

[Letsgethammered]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

I dont think dug coins are always less desireable or valuable,ive dug silver that looks new.The copper and bronzes suffer most for obvious reasons.As far as gold and silver go though it would be difficult to distinquish a dug silver coin from any other other than proof states.A key date is always going to be valuable regardless of condition,browse 1921 dimes to see that , even the shabbiest command respectable prices.I dont think 1914d is a key so its value is entirely set by that scratch.

The chinese guys , what tips people off , in this case the guy must think we zip up the back , he has coins with mintages so low that some of these are rarely seen , so what are they doing on ebay , $20,000 coins selling on ebay for a couple hundred.Motivated people checked out his extensive inventory,people with a lifetime of collecting and a lot of money tied up in the genuine articles.It doesnt mean ebay do anything about it, they dont.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Quite a strange thing to say with the pcgs "snob" thing , i dont think it makes a person overly fussy because they prefer an uncleaned coin.
Cleaning them renders them as nothing more than fancy bullion at melt prices.Im trying to understand why it would seem odd for an Uncirculated coin to not show signs of circulation,guess its just too early for me yet.

The "snob" thing was a poke... Although I fully understand the purpose of some kind of "authority" on coins, to, at the very least keep counterfeiting and such in check, I just feel that it has gotten out of hand... A, say PCGS graded coin will often fetch up to 10 times what it would had they not done their duty... Why? It is still the same coin... And to many collectors such as myself, it means no more to me if it is graded by them. If I made a living at coin collecting, I may feel different..As I said earlier, would a model T ford be worth less money if it was kept washed and waxed, or for heavens sake, re-painted? Not a perfect example, but again, a coin is still a coin, and old is old... I have a lot of coins that have heavy patina, and I think it makes them all the more beautiful, and I would never try to clean or remove it off the coin.. The old fellow I bought all of the "bright" coins from was just a simple coin collector, and maybe in his day the cleaner the better... They are still beautiful, I should post some pics that have not been taken and "modified" (I sharpened them at 8X normal), that show how beautiful they are under "normal" viewing conditions... I was even surprised myself at how scratched they are when I blew up the photos and added the extra sharpness and increased the bright/contrast levels.... I dont expect to get more for them then melt value anyway, which is right around $14.00

I purposely dont own but one PCGS graded coin as i agree with what your saying , why pay 10x when with patience and persistence one can purchase the same grade coin raw.I do think more and more people are turning to these grading house slabbed coins though in the face of the onslaught of Chinese near perfect fakes.
I recently came across a chinese dealer on ebay , hes selling the highest quality of the most rare UK coins for peanuts , perfect fakes , on the hammereds he has even faked the toning and got it right and the wear circulation brings.Its ok saying , beware of chinese dealers but he is selling to someone and those someones are US and UK based and whos to say they dont flip them as the genuine article.
The day is swiftly coming if your coins are not graded or somehow authenticated ..doesnt bear thinking about.

Have you got a link to that Chinese dealer I'd like to have a look at some of those coins(fakes)...

SS

 

[Letsgethammered]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

This guy came to light about a fortnight ago or thereabouts,theres now about 5 pages of his fakes ended,the feedback will be interesting.
I believe this coin i saved to be fake and now wish id saved others , there was a 1877 crown with a 1977 date stamp which got removed pretty quickly.
Keep this guy in your favs to watch , without doubt theres more to come.How he has gotten away with it til now is that he has enough low end genuine coins to mix in the high end fakes.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320508806159&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

 

[mts]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Personally, I don't waste time or money on graded coins or even high value coins. I'm just not into that sort of thing and I don't care to pay a premium based on condition that doesn't even affect the actual look of the coin. I buy coins that are representative samples for the historic value only. I want to have a sample of most of the coins the US made without necessarily having the best samples available. So I spent $18 on a Morgan silver dollar that was in decent shape and had nice features. I see no sense in spending $100 on one that has fewer scratches or is a better date. When I show the coins to my kids and grandkids they won't know the difference anyway. But that's just me. Obviously, real coin collectors will disagree with me.

I also like to buy junk silver coins and in that case I don't care what condition they are in or whether or not they have been cleaned. I will gladly clean most junk silver coins that appear to be worn enough such that they won't fetch any premium above melt value. I try to stay away from well worn junk silver coins as their silver content is lower. But as long as you can see the basic features then you should be able to get your money's worth out of them down the road.

If I have to worry about how my kids handle a coin then I don't want it.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Personally, I don't waste time or money on graded coins or even high value coins. I'm just not into that sort of thing and I don't care to pay a premium based on condition that doesn't even affect the actual look of the coin. I buy coins that are representative samples for the historic value only. I want to have a sample of most of the coins the US made without necessarily having the best samples available. So I spent $18 on a Morgan silver dollar that was in decent shape and had nice features. I see no sense in spending $100 on one that has fewer scratches or is a better date. When I show the coins to my kids and grandkids they won't know the difference anyway. But that's just me. Obviously, real coin collectors will disagree with me.

I also like to buy junk silver coins and in that case I don't care what condition they are in or whether or not they have been cleaned. I will gladly clean most junk silver coins that appear to be worn enough such that they won't fetch any premium above melt value. I try to stay away from well worn junk silver coins as their silver content is lower. But as long as you can see the basic features then you should be able to get your money's worth out of them down the road.

If I have to worry about how my kids handle a coin then I don't want it.

I've bought coins to sell, and kept some for a little while but that didn't last long. Just too much money tied up in things that don't come anywhere close to the feeling I have for the stuff I've dug. I've recently taking a liking to watches, and at least you can wear them, but it sure isn't any cheaper than coins! This year I'll be all about making money and finding stuff, and leave the buying and collecting to everyone else!

 

[Letsgethammered]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

My honest outlook is this , one can spend anywhere from $250 to 5k on a decent metal detector , X amount on fuel getting to sites , X amount on accessories and expenses.
So before one finds as much as a shiny new nickel theres quite a bit of money already "tied up" and indeed lost because one will never get the same money laid out on resale of these things.

Some people and we all know this is true can spend days , weeks , months , years and never find anything to recoup the money spent on devices,probably most people never do.

So lets say for saying sake , i have 500 dollars to spend , is it better spent on a detector or is it better spent on a nice coin ? With the coin my money is safe , ill always get what i paid for it and probably more.
How many days would i spend searching and finding nothing , plenty thats how many.So lets say it costs me $20 for batteries , fuel and lunch to get to the site each time , am i not better spending that $20 on a nice morgan dollar and never left the chair , no bug bites , no disappointment.

So ive spent $500 on a detector , will i recoup that money in time to upgrade ? Doubt it,one in a million guys hit the jackpot,the rest of us turn up old clad and corroded coppers.Sure one might find an old ring or whatever , in 25 years detecting ive never found a ring,countless coffee cans of rubbish and occasionally a nice bit of silver in coin form.

Im not dissing the hobby , its one ive had all my life , just seeing things as i see them , id just as soon spend the 20 bucks on ebay and know i have a nice coin than take the chance , for me metal detecting is a good way to get outdoors for a walk , i dont see how anyone could count on it for making money.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

My honest outlook is this , one can spend anywhere from $250 to 5k on a decent metal detector , X amount on fuel getting to sites , X amount on accessories and expenses.
So before one finds as much as a shiny new nickel theres quite a bit of money already "tied up" and indeed lost because one will never get the same money laid out on resale of these things.

Some people and we all know this is true can spend days , weeks , months , years and never find anything to recoup the money spent on devices,probably most people never do.

So lets say for saying sake , i have 500 dollars to spend , is it better spent on a detector or is it better spent on a nice coin ? With the coin my money is safe , ill always get what i paid for it and probably more.
How many days would i spend searching and finding nothing , plenty thats how many.So lets say it costs me $20 for batteries , fuel and lunch to get to the site each time , am i not better spending that $20 on a nice morgan dollar and never left the chair , no bug bites , no disappointment.

So ive spent $500 on a detector , will i recoup that money in time to upgrade ? Doubt it,one in a million guys hit the jackpot,the rest of us turn up old clad and corroded coppers.Sure one might find an old ring or whatever , in 25 years detecting ive never found a ring,countless coffee cans of rubbish and occasionally a nice bit of silver in coin form.

Im not dissing the hobby , its one ive had all my life , just seeing things as i see them , id just as soon spend the 20 bucks on ebay and know i have a nice coin than take the chance , for me metal detecting is a good way to get outdoors for a walk , i dont see how anyone could count on it for making money.

I don't think you can count on it to make money, but I also think you greatly under estimate what some of us have found along side those crusty coppers. In ten years I've hit 4 figure finds (grant it low 4 figures) about a dozen times. So an average of a $1,000+ find per year is pretty good. I also know of a find from last Fall probably worth at least 20k that some friends dug but I can't go into it just for the reason it's not my place to. It wasn't doing anything different than most of us do, just a real lucky day! I've said for years there would be something found worth that much and sure enough it happened.

 

[Letsgethammered]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

I could well be underestimating what some might find , certainly the big finds are the exception to the rule , it doesnt happen often.
Not to argue the point , but if i find 1k of items a year but ive laid out X amount to do it , well ..you see what im driving at.Theres 2 sides to every discussion , i dont think we are entirely on opposite sides of the fence with this.Perhaps ive been one of the many less lucky ones and find it useful to treasure hunt with other methods.

Kinda like the Model T argument the other day , why is a pristine one worth more than a washed or repainted one.Why does prime rib cost more than hamburger,same deal , "treasure" is the end result or whats striven for , how one gets there varies.
Ill keep the ol'tector sure , most days it yields nothing better than a few dodgy looking lincolns,theres always the chance.It is interesting thought though , that 20 bucks for batteries will get you a morgan everytime.

 

[Iron Patch]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

I could well be underestimating what some might find , certainly the big finds are the exception to the rule , it doesnt happen often.
Not to argue the point , but if i find 1k of items a year but ive laid out X amount to do it , well ..you see what im driving at.Theres 2 sides to every discussion , i dont think we are entirely on opposite sides of the fence with this.Perhaps ive been one of the many less lucky ones and find it useful to treasure hunt with other methods.

Kinda like the Model T argument the other day , why is a pristine one worth more than a washed or repainted one.Why does prime rib cost more than hamburger,same deal , "treasure" is the end result or whats striven for , how one gets there varies.
Ill keep the ol'tector sure , most days it yields nothing better than a few dodgy looking lincolns,theres always the chance.It is interesting thought though , that 20 bucks for batteries will get you a morgan everytime.

I'm lucky in the way my finds have justified every penny I've spent on detector stuff. That said, if I lived in many other places in North America I am quite sure I would not have the same detecting budget. (which is unlimited) I also probably wouldn't have the same level or interest, not hunt as much, and drink a whole lot more. The people that never find much better than an Indian head penny, but still get out there... I sure don't doubt their passion!

 

[Letsgethammered]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Oh i dont doubt people passion for the hobby , ive seen it first hand.I got my first detector 30 years ago.Ive detected in the UK and the US and yet to meet a person who has covered the initial outlay with finds , congratulations , your the first.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Re: What is with this "Cleaning" thing?

Personally, I don't waste time or money on graded coins or even high value coins. I'm just not into that sort of thing and I don't care to pay a premium based on condition that doesn't even affect the actual look of the coin. I buy coins that are representative samples for the historic value only. I want to have a sample of most of the coins the US made without necessarily having the best samples available. So I spent $18 on a Morgan silver dollar that was in decent shape and had nice features. I see no sense in spending $100 on one that has fewer scratches or is a better date. When I show the coins to my kids and grandkids they won't know the difference anyway. But that's just me. Obviously, real coin collectors will disagree with me.

I also like to buy junk silver coins and in that case I don't care what condition they are in or whether or not they have been cleaned. I will gladly clean most junk silver coins that appear to be worn enough such that they won't fetch any premium above melt value. I try to stay away from well worn junk silver coins as their silver content is lower. But as long as you can see the basic features then you should be able to get your money's worth out of them down the road.

If I have to worry about how my kids handle a coin then I don't want it.

My sentiment EXACTLY.... Well said.