What is most outrageous treasure hunting legend you have ever read?

[gollum]

Matt,

First, ya gotta find some TorC Old Timers that knew the man. Find out if he had any family. Eventually you will find out that it disappeared and someone has it or that it hasn't been seen since he died.

Mike

 

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[mdog]

Matt,

I will give you a for instance right in your neck of the woods. In the online book "Lure of the Caballos", Joe Cummins writes about a man named Doc Perrick.



That is just one person that had been destroying anything he thought was a monument or sign. That happened with him over a period of about 50 years, throughout the Organ, San Andres, Caballo, and Fra Cristobal Mountains. A LOT OF LOST HISTORY THERE. I can site many of the same type of occurrences in The Superstition Mountains in Az regarding the Lost Dutchman.

SDCFIA,

Kenworthy put the information in his books that he got from his many archival sources. He paid a lot of money to get copies of many things over the years. He had the money to spend, and didn't mind throwing it around where he thought it might help him.

So, if Kenworthy got his information from a primary source, that such and such a sign or monument meant whatever, then that throws off your suggestion that those signs are much older. I don't doubt that there is treasure from sources much older than 99% of historians will admit to. I believe the Vikings played a big part in exploring Vinland from the Northeast, and a thousand years before them, I have a lot of circumstantial evidence (not all circumstantial) that the Phoenicians were all over the new world (from Michigan down to Central America).

Mike

Hi Mike,

If you believe the Phoenicians explored North America, this link could explain the large monuments that Kenworthy wrote about.

Verraco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If these monuments were created in the Iberian Peninsula then the Phoenicians, if not the creators, would at least been aware of them and how they were used. They could have used that knowledge to create similar monuments in North America. That might explain why Kenworthy said these monuments could be found all over the United States. The Spanish explorers of North and Central America would have seen them in Spain and probably knew what they meant and how they were used. Perhaps the information Kenworthy bought explained the meaning of these ancient monuments and how to use them. The confirmation marks that you write about, like your carved 7, could have been Spanish instructions left on the ancient monuments they were following. What do you think?

Rick

 

[mdog]

Sadly many monuments have been destroyed. Here away from the ones out west some reputedly were ruined by priests because the natives who claimed they did not make them payed too much attention to them. So the story goes.
Too much later monuments used during cattle drives have been altered or removed. Indian mounds bulldozed and razed for progress sake..
Natural landmarks were used by most all early map makers. Less telling than man made ones they could be tweaked by adding your own monuments or markers once approached.
Add a Barry Fell translation to some markers and age really gets wild.

Who Built New England’s Megalithic Monuments?

Rocks & Rows - Michigan Copper in the Mediterranean (Isle Royale and Keweenaw Peninsula, c. 2400BC-1200 BC)

Good links Releventchair, thanks.

I read where Coronado heard tales of an Indian tribe who worshiped the stone idol of a woman. This was when he was at the northern point of his exploration of the plains.

The villages of Native American idol worshipers were probably located along important trails that had places of worship along those trails, much like the Spanish built missions along the trails they used. I have read that one of those stone idols up around the Great Lakes was a pretty good size monument. Big enough that the Jesuits couldn't get the whole thing knocked down.

 

[releventchair]

Greetings mdog. Shared a reference received from you regarding a worker finding a relic hidden near a mission. With another group.
What were called idols seems more superstition regarding those items not natural demanding respect or tribute to not risk upsetting. Phenomena had possible causes and anything to explain or alleviate misfortune was worth a small token when passing by. I have not pursued more than an isolated account of the claims that the natives insisted they were the work of others.
Not unlike arrows shot into a certain cave as it was passed by on water to keep unkind spirit at bay, the works of unknown hands would arouse attention; then as now. Offerings being given to those "idols" were taken as an offence to the priests we know..
Dogs tied and tossed in waters for similar reasons , you are aware of I'm confident as to why,I don't know what the priests said or did anything about about but they were fighting very real fear/superstitions.

 

[sdcfia]

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SDCFIA,

Kenworthy put the information in his books that he got from his many archival sources. He paid a lot of money to get copies of many things over the years. He had the money to spend, and didn't mind throwing it around where he thought it might help him.

So, if Kenworthy got his information from a primary source, that such and such a sign or monument meant whatever, then that throws off your suggestion that those signs are much older. I don't doubt that there is treasure from sources much older than 99% of historians will admit to. I believe the Vikings played a big part in exploring Vinland from the Northeast, and a thousand years before them, I have a lot of circumstantial evidence (not all circumstantial) that the Phoenicians were all over the new world (from Michigan down to Central America).

Mike

Sorry if I wasn't clear earlier - it's my opinion that the "treasure signs" described and cataloged by Kenworthy and many others are in fact much more recent (not older) than the Spanish and Jesuit periods in the American Southwest. See Post#83. It's my feeling that many of the carvings and monuments appeared in the 1930s.

 

[gollum]

Here's some more about Doc Perrick:







Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

We always lament the lack of hard evidence to work from in this game, and perhaps more than a little of that is caused by people like Doc Perrick here. I hope a special level of hell awaits such people, who think the world is only for their use. After giving it some thought I remembered another treasure hunter up in the San Juans who pulled that kind of crap as well. I hope he met a similar fate.

 

[Crow]

Ya meet all types that gravitate around treasure legends. Sinners and saints and everything in between.

Pull up pew at Crow and hardlucks bar of shame. have a coffee, beer or whiskey, I have a yarn for ya

One funniest and outrageous treasure legends was told to Hardluck a few years ago. it was not particularly the treasure legend itself it was the Guy telling the long story.This person was claiming to be a treasure hunter and told hardluck a story of treasure hunting expedition he went on. The more he went on with the story the more familiar Hardluck become with the story. To the point Hardluck realized this person was telling Hardlucks story as his own right down to the alias Hardluck was using and the ships name Hardluck had charted at the time.. Hardluck still laughs his ass off about it. Not every day ya get to meet some one impersonating you. Especially when they do not know who they were impersonating.


Crow

 

[John_Arizona]

Let's hear em!

everything that I have read on tnet lol

 

[Crow]

Hello John ya cannot ever trust these scurvy dogs without the fail of Judys Cat o nine. I have build a bigger bar of shame. treasure hunters are just like fisherman, Aye the one that got away as the night wears on the arms get further apart.

Cheers.

Crow

 

[Randy Bradford]

You're right. The "lost Spanish cache" genre is truly outrageous. A little research will reveal how Spanish mining ventures were organized and controlled by the Crown during Spain's New World rule. You will find that there was very little mining activity north of the Durango, MX latitudes, and the reasons that was so. There was some activity, of course, but the mere idea that the King would then agree to allow the contractors to leave his 20% share buried in the wilderness to be retrieved later by a scavenger hunt is laughable. Hoaxers like Kenworthy have done truth-seekers a disservice by pushing these sorts of fantasies - but, as some guy on another thread said recently, "We don't care if the stories are true or not as long as they're entertaining." As Mark Twain said, "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

Spanish Mines were regulated but you don't think folks who didn't want to play by the rules didn't occasionally take out on their own and do things their own way?

I've often thought two things on this issue....

1) There were absolutely mining groups that decided to take their chances, disobey the crown, and keep the whole kit'n caboodle for themselves. A basic understanding of human nature would make this not only a possibility, but one of high likelihood. The Spaniards had a LOT of wide open spaces to disappear into and carry this out. I think there is virtually no doubt that this took place.

2) There is probably virtually no "proof" that any of number 1 took place. Clandestine parties wouldn't have taken priests with them, they wouldn't have kept journals of their travels or an accounting of their finds to keep their 5th straight. Bottom line, the very things that would have made my first point a likelihood are the very reasons why it will likely never be VERIFIABLE.

 

[sdcfia]

Spanish Mines were regulated but you don't think folks who didn't want to play by the rules didn't occasionally take out on their own and do things their own way?

I've often thought two things on this issue....

1) There were absolutely mining groups that decided to take their chances, disobey the crown, and keep the whole kit'n caboodle for themselves. A basic understanding of human nature would make this not only a possibility, but one of high likelihood. The Spaniards had a LOT of wide open spaces to disappear into and carry this out. I think there is virtually no doubt that this took place.

2) There is probably virtually no "proof" that any of number 1 took place. Clandestine parties wouldn't have taken priests with them, they wouldn't have kept journals of their travels or an accounting of their finds to keep their 5th straight. Bottom line, the very things that would have made my first point a likelihood are the very reasons why it will likely never be VERIFIABLE.

In theory, No. 1 makes some sense and I agree there likely were a few free agents that tested the waters. However, when reality raises its ugly head and the cost and logistics of a mining expedition several hundred miles or more north of the Northern Frontier of Mexico is considered, the number of such ventures shrinks drastically. First, someone had to pay the bills. The classic Conquistador expeditions were funded by very rich Europeans, and unless the crew agreed to work for shares of a predetermined sure thing - which was pretty much the case in Peru and Mexico in the early days - they expected to be paid for the risk. Horses were expensive, and so was armor and other gear. Look at the Coronado Expedition.

Second, where did the food come from? A traveling party in uncharted country has to eat every day, probably lots. They can't carry enough to sustain themselves for long, so they'd have to live off the land. They can hunt for meat, sure, if there is game enough to consistently feed them all. They can steal some squash and melons from Natives here and there, sure, but how many villages are they going to find in the mountains? Eating every day is a challenge enough in a settlement - for a relatively large group of explorers, even more challenging.

Third, a mining venture requires even more expense than a simple exploration project. More tools and more horses to carry them. More skilled personnel and more money to pay them. Looking for placer in streams is one thing - low tech and easy - but lode mining is a whole new and more complicated ball game, requiring more people and more resources. Just review De Re Metallica for the mining technology used during the Renaissance period. This all assumes, of course, that a "fabulously rich vein" was discovered somewhere in the wilderness. What are the odds of that happening? If it did, a permanent camp would need to be established, and a sustainable food chain secured to support the operation. Oh, and the mercury needed for metal recovery? It had to come from the Crown, which controlled it all in the New World. So much for a secret mission.

Fourth, why venture so far north when very rich ore was and still is available in Northern Mexico?

IMO, a few ventures such as the treasure magazines describe did occur in North America. Very few, maybe one for every fifty legends - or less.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning SDC. All that you said is True., as I found out when my partner and I tried to live off of the jungle while looking for Mayan ruins, but what isn't stated that when you insert Religion into the factor, it changes the field. The workers were intensely religeous and easily put under a religeous vow of silence / secrecy.

There also was an extremely active black maret in salt, Mercury, and food for clandestine mining. The same applies to black market tools - where's there a will, there's a way.

No one ever expects to be caught.. If so, bribery was resorted to.

But essentially you are correct.

Tayopa was a clandestine operation, Those same points occured to me until I found out about the black market.. As for keeping a disgruntled laborer quiet -----religion.



early

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

A little late, but go to the Downing forums and look up remote , map, dowsing and their latest works, iinteresting. They were put to the test and came through with flying colors.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Jeff, the Spanish 8 reales was probably the coin that supposedly Washington threw acros the river.

 

[Ecominer]

That question is an easy one on this forum. That legend would be the one by the arm chair treasure hunter that says. " I solved the answer to that treasure location, but I can't go get it because: 1. I live to far away; 2, I have a health issue; 3. I'm to old and I can't do that anymore. 4. I'm to busy and can't take time to ...

The other one is: "If you ask me to be your partner and you say you will split the difference with me, I won't do that. Some day I will go get it."

I'll admit you can't trust anyone on that second part. I have helped a number of people with their treasure search up to the last time they were supposed to go out and dig it up. For some reason I never heard from them again and their on line name never came up on the boards again. I guess they just got lost out there. I would still help anyone that ask though and figure that if they find something their life will be just that much better for it (maybe).

Someone once said the true stature of a man is how you behave when you are all alone by yourself. I just go with the theory that all of those I have helped that did find something and did not pass a share back to me for my assistance is that "what goes around comes around", and Karma is a @$@$#.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning Ecominer, you have experienced the darker side of treasure hunting. For everyone of those types you will find hundreds of thoroughly honest ones, but to differientiate them

If you have been disalusioned, I must point out that it is mostly your own fault, you have created a situation of cupidity. This is not limited to treasure hunting.

However I personally have never asked anyone for help, and as you suggested, age now prevents me from going on my projects in the sierras of Mexico. I am now 92, suggestions ??

 

[spyguy]

Jose Gaspar a.k.a "Gasparilla"
This marauding pirate and cutthroat supposedly buried treasures all over the islands dotting the west coast of Florida. These include; Boca Grand, Bookelia, Captiva "The island of captive women", among other spots including on the NE coast of FL at Amelia Island. Several places in FL are named after him or associated with him including those above. Additionally there is a major Tampa parade every year which is topped only by Mardi Gras in New Orleans and Carnival in Brazil called the Gasparilla Parade. It is best summed up as beer, boobs, & beads although all three have seen a dramatic reduction the last several years as a strong police presence and cameras have all but squashed its appeal. Back in the day though it was quite the place to be --- trust me on this one.
I personally searched for Gasparilla's lost hoards several years back thanks to the many fabrications of several treasure authors some credible and others laughable. So imagine my disappointment when several true historians and 'Tampa Tribune' staff writers exposed the entire Gasparilla legend as made up entirely from whole cloth. Not one single word that was written about this mythical pirate's adventures had any basis in fact whatsoever. It seems he was originally created by several greedy real estate developers way back when Florida was still scrub grass & cabbage palm to sell real estate. After all, who doesn't like the romance associated with pirates and buried treasure? This myth was perpetuated, repeated, and written about so much that eventually it all took on a legendary life of its own. I know someone reading this is probably thinking: 'Wait I've heard about Gasparilla from several sources.' If so, the truth shall set you free and you're welcome.
If anyone can top this for PURE B.S. TREASURE LEGENDS I for one am all ears....
HH
-spyguy

 

[Ecominer]

I, for one would have never thought you were 92. I have read your comments for years. I have always had a high opinion of your comments, responses, tales, and words of wisdom. If I were to guess I would have guessed less than 50. As many writers do you should take pen in hand and write up some of your adventures as either fact or fiction. I think you have. Lot to say.

 

[Mackaydon]

Ecominer,
You wrote...."Someone once said the true stature of a man is how you behave when you are all alone by yourself."
That is close to my definition of INTEGRITY: 'Doing the right thing when no one is looking'. In my experience, once treasure is raised and placed on the ship's deck, the character of the crew (their integrity) is tested. And, as Don Jose (Real de Tayopa) mentioned above, a "situation of cupidity" is created in that situation. What it comes down to is TRUST; and trust has to be earned--through experience by observing the behavior of others when the temptation of "cupidity" raises its ugly head. IMO, when someone trusts another without having experienced their integrity, that one is buying a "pig in a poke" and assumes the risk of possible adverse consequences.
Don......('only' 75)