Were the Spanish hostile to the whites?

[Old Silver]

"...was guided by some Indians from the Platte river to Santa Fe, where he remained several years" "They were kindly treated by Gov. Alencaster, and sent under guard to Chihuahua. They were also hospitably received by the Spanish Governor of Chihuahua, Coahuila and New Leon, and returned to United States territory through Texas in 1807."



"...they were then a brave people (New Mexicans) and kind and hospitable to all who came within their borders."


Indian guides? Kind Spaniards? Is it possible?

 

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[Old Silver]

Indian trading party of 1810, led by James Pursley?

 

[Old Silver]

"...had established himself at Santa Fe as a carpenter, where he was thriving."

 

[Old Silver]

"He traces the gradual development of the trade between St. Louis and Santa Fe. Up to 1824 all merchandise was transported by pack mules."

 

[lastleg]

Thank you for informing us of latter-day reflections from a reporter seventy plus years after the
facts. The real story has been published however without sentimentality. The easiest way is to
check out "Great River" by Paul Horgan which quotes Pike's diary verbatim.

 

[Old Silver]

Thank you for informing us of latter-day reflections from a reporter seventy plus years after the
facts. The real story has been published however without sentimentality. The easiest way is to
check out "Great River" by Paul Horgan which quotes Pike's diary verbatim.

And this proves what I said an another thread. What you believe depends on what YOU WANT to believe. One account CAN'T be right, because this other accounts says...

Remember the word, confirmation.

 

[franklin]

"...was guided by some Indians from the Platte river to Santa Fe, where he remained several years" "They were kindly treated by Gov. Alencaster, and sent under guard to Chihuahua. They were also hospitably received by the Spanish Governor of Chihuahua, Coahuila and New Leon, and returned to United States territory through Texas in 1807."
View attachment 1311073


"...they were then a brave people (New Mexicans) and kind and hospitable to all who came within their borders."
View attachment 1311075

Indian guides? Kind Spaniards? Is it possible?

What the newspaper articles do not tell you about Lt. Pike intentionally wanted to be captured. He was on an expedtion to find out all about the Spanish for an invasion by the United States Army or at least by the Patriot Army of President James Madison. Dr. James Robertson that was with Lt. Pike was a General in the Patriot Army. Imagine a "General" taking orders from a LT. Pike stole maps from the Spanish of all military forts, gun emplacements. also strength of the number of soldiers and fortifications. Pike also made note of all repositories for treasure by the Spanish Government. That is how TJB knew about Prusley his half brother and the gold.

 

[Old Silver]

What the newspaper articles do not tell you about Lt. Pike intentionally wanted to be captured. He was on an expedtion to find out all about the Spanish for an invasion by the United States Army or at least by the Patriot Army of President James Madison. Dr. James Robertson that was with Lt. Pike was a General in the Patriot Army. Imagine a "General" taking orders from a LT. Pike stole maps from the Spanish of all military forts, gun emplacements. also strength of the number of soldiers and fortifications. Pike also made note of all repositories for treasure by the Spanish Government. That is how TJB knew about Prusley his half brother and the gold.

Do you think the Beale treasure was Spanish gold and silver, stolen from around Santa Fe?

 

[franklin]

Do you think the Beale treasure was Spanish gold and silver, stolen from around Santa Fe?

Could very well have been for them to have gold purified to at least 60 percent gold.

 

[Old Silver]

Could very well have been for them to have gold purified to at least 60 percent gold.

Anything is possible.

 

[franklin]

Anything is possible.

When I deciphered C1 and went to the treasure's location. A partner from California and I found the treasure was gone. We did find some celebration wine bottles buried within the hole. I went back later as there were a couple of large stones on the opposite side of the creek. Near one of those stones I found two silver coins one from France and the other a Pillar Dollar from Spain. Both coins were dated before 1820. I took the coins to Peter Viemeister's book store in Bedford City and he made pencil tracings of the coins. Those two coins could have been thrown by the finder's of the Beale Treasure. The wine bottles were dated in the 1930's. Less than one quarter mile down stream from this branch is where the iron pots were found in the 1970's. Could it have been the Beale Treasure? It very well could have been because no one knows the source of the treasure. It could have come from repositories of the Spanish Government in Sante Fe. It could have came from treasures of the Santa Rosa and Jean Lafitte and/or it could have came from the Royal Vaults in Baton Rouge, LA. It could have been from a former banker or businessman's treasure such as Robert Morris and James Dunnington from Baltimore, MD. There are numerous possibilities that could be true and again neither of them.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

I have seen this written many ways with many variations . The one I have found best is the one with the large group in 1770's 500 men or so and the second group of about 50 men in about 1785 with a man named Reme and the French Governor of New Orleans at the time funded the gold mining trip . the 33 million I find interesting !


In the late 1700’s a French expedition of 300 men and 450 horses journeyed from an outpost at present-day Leavenworth, Kansas on their way to the Rocky Mountains. Once they reached the mountains, they began to prospect, at first without success. Working their way south, they made camp several miles east of Wolf Creek Pass, near present-day Summitville.

Prospecting in the many creeks and streams of the area, they supposedly found a large amount of gold on Treasure Mountain. The amount of gold today would be valued at as much as $33 million dollars. The Frenchmen stored the gold in three different places and the commanding officer was in charge of the map.



When the French arrived, the Indians did not initially disturb them, but as time went on, the Indians mounted a brutal attack upon the expedition and a fevered battle ensued. Quickly, the French buried the gold and made new maps, but most of the Frenchmen were killed by the Indians. Only an estimated 17 to 35 men were able to flee the area, only to be attacked again, once they reached the Front Range. After this second brutal strike, only five weary men began the journey back to Kansas. However, winter was upon them, and starvation and bitter conditions killed three more, leaving only two who finally stumbled into the Kansas outpost. Even then, only one of the two survived. The sole survivor, a man by the name of "Le Blanc,” was the expedition’s historian. After recuperating at the outpost he made the long journey back to France, with two copies of the treasure map, one of which he gave to the French government, the other, he kept for himself.



UteWarriors-1878 A second expedition was mounted to retrieve the buried treasure, though it is unclear weather the mission was conveyed by La Blanc’s family or by the French government. Fifty men headed back to the Summitville area, passing through Taos, New Mexico, where they hired a guide to lead them to the area.



However, months later, the guide returned to Taos alone, claiming the entire expedition had again been wiped out by the Indians. The Taos locals were suspicious of the "sole survivor” and in the last Mexican trial held in United States territory, they tried him for murder but he was acquitted. Some theories claim the whole story was contrived by the Frenchmen, who secretly found the gold and returned to France, paying the guide to return to Taos, New Mexico with the untrue story of a massacre.



Over the years, several maps have appeared which claim to lead to the buried treasure. A man by the name of William Yule supposedly had a copy of the original and searched the entire western side of the valley, north to Saguache, without success. Later, a prospector named Asa Poor supposedly obtained the map from Yule and with two partners, was able to locate several landmarks leading to the treasure, but never found the hidden gold. One of Poor's partners, named Montroy, retained possession of the map, but it disappeared several years later.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

When I deciphered C1 and went to the treasure's location. A partner from California and I found the treasure was gone. We did find some celebration wine bottles buried within the hole. I went back later as there were a couple of large stones on the opposite side of the creek. Near one of those stones I found two silver coins one from France and the other a Pillar Dollar from Spain. Both coins were dated before 1820. I took the coins to Peter Viemeister's book store in Bedford City and he made pencil tracings of the coins. Those two coins could have been thrown by the finder's of the Beale Treasure. The wine bottles were dated in the 1930's. Less than one quarter mile down stream from this branch is where the iron pots were found in the 1970's. Could it have been the Beale Treasure? It very well could have been because no one knows the source of the treasure. It could have come from repositories of the Spanish Government in Sante Fe. It could have came from treasures of the Santa Rosa and Jean Lafitte and/or it could have came from the Royal Vaults in Baton Rouge, LA. It could have been from a former banker or businessman's treasure such as Robert Morris and James Dunnington from Baltimore, MD. There are numerous possibilities that could be true and again neither of them.

What kinds of coins...? Spanish, French..?

 

[franklin]

What kinds of coins...? Spanish, French..?

Yes, I said France and Spain. The one from France was about the size of nickel but thinner and the other was a Pillar Dollar from Spain. The one from France was dated 1815 and I believe the Pillar Dollar was 1817. I have them written down in my recovery logs but at the present do not know where it is. But I do have it.

 

[austin]

Old Silver... Santa Fe was an outpost of empire. They were isolated and depended on a couple of pack trains from Mexico City every year for essentials, much less luxury goods. When Pike and his men were arrested for being in Spanish territory, they were brought into Santa Fe, where the governor didn't know exactly what to do with them They were treated well and discovered land wealthy widows and a ready market for anything they could spare, After being entertained at dances(fandangos) and treated really well, they were sent to Chihuahua to let that commander decide. Their expulsion from Spanish territory was ordered and they were escorted back through Texas abd home. Some, remembering Santa Fe saw a chance for love and wealth. Goods were taken back and old friendships renewed. Intermarriage took place and as anything that was offered for sale was purchased quickly, a live trade developed. The Santa Fe trail was opened. The soldiers had discovered latinas and comments were made of how the women had a coatinf of clay on their faces during the day, but at night that was washed off and incredibly beautiful women were revealed. Many were widows whose husbands had been killed by Apaches on their ranchos outside of Santa Fe. Some were stock breeders some miners etc. Hostile to whites? I have spent time in Mexico myself, dated a woman from Monterrey and been totally accepted by the community. That was recently. Think how both sides felt then. Luxury goods and love plus security provided. Spanish orders were to eject any interlopers from the country or arrest them and send them to Mexico City, but Santa Fe was so far from the capital that they sort of did their own thing. California was the same. Hostility to whites? Not hardly...(John Francis Bannon OFM, Paul Horgan, lectures of Dr. Felix D. Almaraz, Dr. Juan Mora-Torres and Dr. Gilberto Hinojosa plus my own research and teachings of my own college history classes). When word spread guides brought many people into the area. As for treasure, who knows, but property values in Santa Fe today are off the scale. Oh, by the way, Pike didn't have to steal maps from the Spansih. He made his own on the trip. He was taken through every place of civilization in northern Mexico, which included Santa Fe, El paso del Norte, Chihuahua and San Fernando de Bejar(San Antonio). These were the "buffer" areas that guarded the northern frontier from the Americans and the French. At least in theory...

 

[franklin]

Old Silver... Santa Fe was an outpost of empire. They were isolated and depended on a couple of pack trains from Mexico City every year for essentials, much less luxury goods. When Pike and his men were arrested for being in Spanish territory, they were brought into Santa Fe, where the governor didn't know exactly what to do with them They were treated well and discovered land wealthy widows and a ready market for anything they could spare, After being entertained at dances(fandangos) and treated really well, they were sent to Chihuahua to let that commander decide. Their expulsion from Spanish territory was ordered and they were escorted back through Texas abd home. Some, remembering Santa Fe saw a chance for love and wealth. Goods were taken back and old friendships renewed. Intermarriage took place and as anything that was offered for sale was purchased quickly, a live trade developed. The Santa Fe trail was opened. The soldiers had discovered latinas and comments were made of how the women had a coatinf of clay on their faces during the day, but at night that was washed off and incredibly beautiful women were revealed. Many were widows whose husbands had been killed by Apaches on their ranchos outside of Santa Fe. Some were stock breeders some miners etc. Hostile to whites? I have spent time in Mexico myself, dated a woman from Monterrey and been totally accepted by the community. That was recently. Think how both sides felt then. Luxury goods and love plus security provided. Spanish orders were to eject any interlopers from the country or arrest them and send them to Mexico City, but Santa Fe was so far from the capital that they sort of did their own thing. California was the same. Hostility to whites? Not hardly...(John Francis Bannon OFM, Paul Horgan, lectures of Dr. Felix D. Almaraz, Dr. Juan Mora-Torres and Dr. Gilberto Hinojosa plus my own research and teachings of my own college history classes). When word spread guides brought many people into the area. As for treasure, who knows, but property values in Santa Fe today are off the scale. Oh, by the way, Pike didn't have to steal maps from the Spansih. He made his own on the trip. He was taken through every place of civilization in northern Mexico, which included Santa Fe, El paso del Norte, Chihuahua and San Fernando de Bejar(San Antonio). These were the "buffer" areas that guarded the northern frontier from the Americans and the French. At least in theory...

You need to read the writings of President Thomas Jefferson somewhere around pages 1320 or so you will find that Pike stole the maps and cancelled them and carried them out of New Mexico. When Jefferson was asked about the maps, he lied saying the journals had not been published knowing full well they were published in 1810.

 

[Old Silver]

Old Silver... Santa Fe was an outpost of empire. They were isolated and depended on a couple of pack trains from Mexico City every year for essentials, much less luxury goods. When Pike and his men were arrested for being in Spanish territory, they were brought into Santa Fe, where the governor didn't know exactly what to do with them They were treated well and discovered land wealthy widows and a ready market for anything they could spare, After being entertained at dances(fandangos) and treated really well, they were sent to Chihuahua to let that commander decide. Their expulsion from Spanish territory was ordered and they were escorted back through Texas abd home. Some, remembering Santa Fe saw a chance for love and wealth. Goods were taken back and old friendships renewed. Intermarriage took place and as anything that was offered for sale was purchased quickly, a live trade developed. The Santa Fe trail was opened. The soldiers had discovered latinas and comments were made of how the women had a coatinf of clay on their faces during the day, but at night that was washed off and incredibly beautiful women were revealed. Many were widows whose husbands had been killed by Apaches on their ranchos outside of Santa Fe. Some were stock breeders some miners etc. Hostile to whites? I have spent time in Mexico myself, dated a woman from Monterrey and been totally accepted by the community. That was recently. Think how both sides felt then. Luxury goods and love plus security provided. Spanish orders were to eject any interlopers from the country or arrest them and send them to Mexico City, but Santa Fe was so far from the capital that they sort of did their own thing. California was the same. Hostility to whites? Not hardly...(John Francis Bannon OFM, Paul Horgan, lectures of Dr. Felix D. Almaraz, Dr. Juan Mora-Torres and Dr. Gilberto Hinojosa plus my own research and teachings of my own college history classes). When word spread guides brought many people into the area. As for treasure, who knows, but property values in Santa Fe today are off the scale. Oh, by the way, Pike didn't have to steal maps from the Spansih. He made his own on the trip. He was taken through every place of civilization in northern Mexico, which included Santa Fe, El paso del Norte, Chihuahua and San Fernando de Bejar(San Antonio). These were the "buffer" areas that guarded the northern frontier from the Americans and the French. At least in theory...

I don't know about treasure either, but some of the reasons for not believing it are just not valid. Some would have us think that a white man would have been killed if he sat one foot on Spanish soil, but that's clearly not the case. Thanks for the post.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

You need to read the writings of President Thomas Jefferson somewhere around pages 1320 or so you will find that Pike stole the maps and cancelled them and carried them out of New Mexico. When Jefferson was asked about the maps, he lied saying the journals had not been published knowing full well they were published in 1810.

Interesting so the US Government had some Spanish maps of the North Americas .

 

[ECS]

It is known as intelligence gathering. There were government plans within plans during that time period, and had nothing to do with the Beale story in the 1885 job pamphlet.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

It is known as intelligence gathering. There were government plans within plans during that time period, and had nothing to do with the Beale story in the 1885 job pamphlet.

So now you know all the secrets that the Government had in the 1800's. Fact, Captain Thomas Beale of New Orleans and Jackson sent letters talking about many things . And that is just what we know they talked about . Fact, Captain Thomas Beale of New Orleans family had a person as sitting President of the United States from 1809-1817 . How do we know Beale was not the one gathering the Intel for the Government at that time he had many contacts thru the Spanish Government just with the wife he had ? How do we know Captain Thomas Beale of New Orleans was not a Agent working for the Government the whole time he was in New Orleans ?