We all need to spread this far and wide

[Oakview2]

It needs to be seen by all miners, John Q pulbic. It exposes these green groups for exactly what they are. TV, radio, facebook, blogs, chatrooms whatever.

On December 12th the Western Mining Alliance received the
final report on the Department of Interior’s investigation into the
activities of Dr. Charles Alpers of the US Geological Survey.
In response to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) filed by
the WMA, and a follow on request for an official investigation the
Department of Interior published the results of their investigation.
Dr. Charles Alpers, of the US Geological Survey (USGS) was
the lead mercury researcher for the water quality section of the
2011 Suction Dredging Environmental Impact Report (EIR). He
was responsible for collecting the data, and preparing the analysis
for the California Suction Dredging Environmental Impact Report
which concluded suction dredges were linked to high
methylmercury levels in wildlife.
He further stated there was only one year of testing data to
rely on.
In 2013 the WMA submitted a FOIA requesting all data
related to sampling of mercury on the South Yuba River, the same
location the suction dredge study took place. The information we
received proved over five years of data existed from research
funded by the Bureau of Land Management, and conducted by –
Dr. Charles Alpers.
When we evaluated all of the data we found there was natural
variability from year to year in mercury levels in wildlife, and the
levels of mercury in insects appeared to be directly linked to the
size of the spring flood. When we viewed all of the data there was
no linkage between mercury levels and dredging activity which
was in direct contradiction to Dr. Alpers’ findings.
The WMA submitted a request for an official investigation
alleging scientific misconduct over the withholding of the data set.
We met with the Department of Interior in June and discussed our
concerns.
Last week the Department of Interior provided us with their
report and it provides some stunning revelations.
The lead mercury researcher on the suction dredging EIR was
also a donor and member of The Sierra Fund. The Sierra Fund is
the organization which claims responsibility for developing the
legislation which banned suction dredging. They have publically
admitted they are opposed to suction dredging and they claimed
credit for writing the legislation which resulted in SB 670, the initial dredging ban.

 

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[Goldwasher]

So you mean groups like this
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCsQFjAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fstreamsavers&ei=GIirVL6fOsiKoQSuoIDACg&usg=AFQjCNGAw9QPIE8lLPpYe2NBQyic7_LMeg&sig2=TMooDiZoFLKHd5St7rkozQ

Interesting link Jog not what I expected whats your take on the group?

 

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[fowledup]

So you mean groups like this
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...PpYe2NBQyic7_LMeg&sig2=TMooDiZoFLKHd5St7rkozQ

What's the deal with Streamsavers? I'm not in Oregon so I have only hearsay knowledge of them. From what I understood, they are miners promoting the positive results of mining not outlawing it. I was also under the impression they weren't getting paid or entering into exclusive contracts with the government. Is this wrong or did I misunderstand the above post and quote?

*Sorry didn't see Goldwashers post before mine- carry on

 

[goldenIrishman]

I've got to go with the rest of the guys here Blackbird. Joining with those that have been fighting to steal our rights away from us is NOT the answer and this is especially so in the long run. Try looking at it this way. Once they manage to strip away one right, how long is it going to be before they start working on taking other rights away from us? As a country we've already had many of our rights taken from us since 9-11 all in the name of national security. Once a right has been removed, it is very hard to get it back. It would be no different with our right to mine.

These "green" groups may have started out with good intentions but as soon as they got wind of the money that they could make by suing the government all thought of making a better world for all went out the window. Like any big company, now all you have to do is follow the money. Numbers don't lie. While they started out with good intentions, they're now driven by greed and only have a thin veneer of their original intent left in place to fool the public.

Maybe what is needed is for miners to figure out how to show both the public and the government officials that we can do the job better and less expensively than the green groups can. Not quite sure how to go about it yet is all. Then again, with their track record, I doubt that the "Greenies" would want a fair fight.

 

[azblackbird]

Blackbird I don't know you your relatively new to these conversations so please take nothing personal. But, I must say again I don't think you understand the situation at hand. And was has been going on the last two decades regarding in stream mining. If we were to cave as you say we should all of the wrong doing and injustice slung our way would be justified and that would enbolden and amplify their "cause"

You're right... I don't understand the situation at hand. What I'm trying to figure out is how in the hell did you guys in CA ever let get to the point it is now? You guys are so concerned with your mining rights, where were you to defend those rights when the dredging moratorium was in the legislature? Where were the protests? Were any of you guys involved in the legislative process? Did any of you guys present or propose any alternative ideas, or ways to work with the other side? Where were your experts, reports, and findings to rebute the BS data the "greenies" presented to the legislature to make their case? Where were your "pro-mining" congressmen, senators, or other house representatives who could go to bat for you? Where were all the pro-mining fund raisers to build a war chest so you could take on any adversaries?

I find it real hard to believe that you guys woke up one day and all of a sudden there was no more dredging. It doesn't work that way! There's a lengthy process to be followed before a law or regulation ever makes it to the desk of the governor for signing... so tell me... WTF happened?

 

[azblackbird]

Maybe what is needed is for miners to figure out how to show both the public and the government officials that we can do the job better and less expensively than the green groups can.

Those processes should've been in place 10 years ago before all this dredging moratorium BS was ever even a thought in the greenie's feeble little minds.

I could tell a story of how the greenies wanted to take on us dirt bikers and shut down many of our trail systems here in AZ, but I don't want to bore anybody. Bottom line is we dirt bikers won! We beat them at their own game! How? We put one of our own in a position of power who reports directly to the governor. We now have the money, the power, and the backing of the state and federal government to build new dirt bike trails, and remediate the old ones here in the state of AZ.

 

[spaghettigold]

Just look to the eastern rivers, what a mess of pollution, rivers orange, full of lead and mercury, and pre EPA rivers even had aught on fire. Thank God they have been spending the last 30 years cleaning up the mess. Even so everybody's water needs to be treated. The truth and facts ARE important

I dont,use mercury or lead for dredging,are the rivers full mercury and lead because of dredging pat?

 

[minerrick]

I find it real hard to believe that you guys woke up one day and all of a sudden there was no more dredging. It doesn't work that way! There's a lengthy process to be followed before a law or regulation ever makes it to the desk of the governor for signing... so tell me... WTF happened?

I'm relatively new to the whole fight, but let me offer some insight as I see it (right or wrong):

1. Read this month's WMA newsletter: the USGS and CA Water Board wanted to do a study at Humbug Creek, in Nevada County. They hired Charles Alpers who was a sitting board member of the SF, who's goal was to eliminate small scale mining, to do the study. Charles was also told by the CAWB that they would like the study to show that suction dredge mining was a bad thing. And apparently o'le Charlie figured out it probably was a good career move to do what the CAWB wanted and he gave them the report they ordered.

2. The Enviros have started this new thing where they claim whenever a new species is added to the endangered species list, it is a good reason to review demand a new EIR is needed to be produced for an existing (and ongoing) project that already has an approved EIR. WMA has filed a law suit against the state of California regarding this issue. If allowed to proceed, than anytime an enviro group wanted to shut down an industry (any resource extraction industry) all they would have to do is to cite an addition to the endangered species list and that company would have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to do a whole new EIR, even they may have had a perfectly fine existing EIR. Apparently the addition of the Salmon to the Endangered Species list is what prompted the State to demand a new EIR for the miners, even though the old one done in 1994 was fine and the State felt compelled to issue a new EIR. At the time, the mining community did nothing to prevent this new EIR from being re-done.

3. During the whole process of doing the new EIR there were PAC and public meetings and the common theme was the state embraced what the enviros had to say and discounted what the miners had to say. When the new EIR was released, apparently a staffer at the SF didn't feel it was strict enough for them (admonishing the miners), so they had a policy rider bill inserted into the 2011 budget bill that mandated that the suction dredgers 100% mitigate any potential damage to the river. To my knowledge, there is NO INDUSTRY that has such stringent mitigation standards (not even nuclear power plants), yet the suction dredgers apparently can create the kind of damage that even a nuclear power plant extract on the environment. Both houses of the CA Legislature at the time were Democratically controlled, and this rider was slipped in just before it got signed. No one had seen it, there was no number for it or no name.... it just showed up and was signed. The rest is history for throwing the miners off the rivers.

4. The extreme irony about all of this is the SF is the only enviro group that OBVIOUSLY has ulterior motives for their "greenness". By throwing the suction dredge miners off the rivers, they suddenly become the 'go-to" mining consortium for extracting green gold out of the rivers. Even a blind man can see the obvious conflict of interest, but apparently officialdom doesn't give a rats-*ss

Writing petitions or letters to people won't do anything as this is an obvious railroad job and they are banking on the fact that miners are all bark and no bite. SOMEHOW all the miners need to coalesce and push back in some intelligent and coherent manner. I don't know what exactly that is, but if it doesn't happen soon, we won't get any respect from anyone.

Rant off.

 

[minerrick]

By the way, Streamsavers is a good group. I know several of the principals and they are going in the right direction. I would suggest that if you like what they are doing, then you send them some supporting funds. They have your back.

 

[spaghettigold]

and pat,it,s not about mercury,where i live there is no mercury or lead issues,do you think if there where no mercury in cal.streams they would not come up with another issue?
I,ts about shutting down the outdoors for us ,whyle making some good payed exceptions for those who can afford it.dredgers are easy targets,mushromcollecting, camping in a tent under the stars for a few nights like a real free human beeing not allowed,maybe your kayak will follow sooner or later

 

[goldenIrishman]

Well the report from the DOI on this is in. Link to the report is here: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/g...-scientific-misconduct-conflict-interest.html Yet another turn of the countdown clock towards the second American revolution if you ask me. People are sick of this and are not going to put up with it much longer.

 

[Goldwasher]

You're right... I don't understand the situation at hand. What I'm trying to figure out is how in the hell did you guys in CA ever let get to the point it is now? You guys are so concerned with your mining rights, where were you to defend those rights when the dredging moratorium was in the legislature? Where were the protests? Were any of you guys involved in the legislative process? Did any of you guys present or propose any alternative ideas, or ways to work with the other side? Where were your experts, reports, and findings to rebute the BS data the "greenies" presented to the legislature to make their case? Where were your "pro-mining" congressmen, senators, or other house representatives who could go to bat for you? Where were all the pro-mining fund raisers to build a war chest so you could take on any adversaries?

I find it real hard to believe that you guys woke up one day and all of a sudden there was no more dredging. It doesn't work that way! There's a lengthy process to be followed before a law or regulation ever makes it to the desk of the governor for signing... so tell me... WTF happened?

WOW!!!!!!!! all the proof we need that you have not been paying attention at all

 

[kayakpat]

What it says that The Western Mining alliance took data from the official report and came to a different conclusion that was in direct contradiction to Dr. Alpers’ official findings. With that kind of information and $1.25 will get you a cup of coffee. I don't understand why you want to spread this far and wide, to me it don't look like good news for us miner who want to dredge, as it has had no effect on the official conclusions. and every miner hates them anyway so nothings has changed

 

[kayakpat]

originally by spagettigold " I dont,use mercury or lead for dredging,are the rivers full mercury and lead because of dredging pat?"


no but the suphur and heavy mineral and metals seep out of the mines and turned our rivers orange

 

[minerrick]

What it says that The Western Mining alliance took data from the official report and came to a different conclusion that was in direct contradiction to Dr. Alpers’ official findings. With that kind of information and $1.25 will get you a cup of coffee. I don't understand why you want to spread this far and wide, to me it don't look like good news for us miner who want to dredge, as it has had no effect on the official conclusions. and every miner hates them anyway so nothings has changed

Does this quotation raise any hackles on your neck, "According to the research chemist, CWB did not want dredging to be the solution to the mercury problem; instead, CWB wanted to ban suction dredging, which it did in 2008." Alper's states that the state told him to throw the study. Does that mean anything to you? To my knowledge, throwing a research study is not typical scientific conduct. Call me naive.

 

[kayakpat]

I want to dredge here but we can only use non mechanical devices, I feel it was the big operations that ruined it for all, they did the damage and left the taxpayer to clean it up

 

[kayakpat]

I did not see that anywhere that he threw the report, that sound like someone speculating

 

[azblackbird]

WOW!!!!!!!! all the proof we need that you have not been paying attention at all

I'm not paying attention?

Last time I checked, we here in AZ can legally dredge for gold, open or conceal carry our guns, and pretty much ride a dirt bike or ATV anywhere we wish... including on the streets.

 

[minerrick]

I want to dredge here but we can only use non mechanical devices, I feel it was the big operations that ruined it for all, they did the damage and left the taxpayer to clean it up

My guess is you haven't been actively involved in this process or you would be seeing what is obvious to everyone involved in this "dog and pony show". My best advice (if you have a lot of spare time on your hands) is to read the new EIR and some of the documents that were sent into the DFG regarding this whole process and it will be an eye-opener. In order for me to try to explain, I'd have to write a novel, and I am not a very good typist, nor do I have the time to write a dissertation. Maybe on the surface it looks like not a big deal, but it is and if you were on the receiving end of all these shenanigans, you'd be as pissed as we are.

 

[Goldwasher]

I want to dredge here but we can only use non mechanical devices, I feel it was the big operations that ruined it for all, they did the damage and left the taxpayer to clean it up

What big operations are you talking about?

 

[Goldwasher]

I'm not paying attention?

Last time I checked, we here in AZ can legally dredge for gold, open or conceal carry our guns, and pretty much ride a dirt bike or ATV anywhere we wish... including on the streets.

Again totally irrelevant to this thread!