WARD BASED HIS STORY ON ORIGINAL "THE BEALE PAPERS" PUBLISHED 1850

[ECS]

It's all questionable in that we don' know for sure.

What we do know for sure is that James Beverly Ward (copyright owner and publisher),Harriet Otey Buford Ward( his wife),
John William Sherman (printer, thespian, playwright), Charles W Button (owner of newspaper that advertised the pamphlet), and Max Guggenheimer (friend and businessman and the only living person mentioned in the Beale Papers during its publication), knew the truth behind the creation of the 1885 Beale Papers.

 

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[Old Silver]

What we do know for sure is that James Beverly Ward (copyright owner and publisher),Harriet Otey Buford Ward( his wife),
John William Sherman (printer, thespian, playwright), Charles W Button (owner of newspaper that advertised the pamphlet), and Max Guggenheimer (friend and businessman and the only living person mentioned in the Beale Papers during its publication), knew the truth behind the creation of the 1885 Beale Papers.

Do you have proof that they knew THE TRUTH of it, or do you mean they believed the same way you believe? Did they have proof? Do you?

 

[ECS]

If they didn't, why would they go through the involvement of copyrighting, printing,publishing, advertising, and selling the job pamphlet for 50cent.
...and Charles W Button did state that his sub-editor John William Sherman, wrote the Beale Papers.
By their very involvement with the Beale Papers is proof that they all had knowledge concerning the creation of the job pamphlet.

 

[Old Silver]

If they didn't, why would they go through the involvement of copyrighting, printing,publishing, advertising, and selling the job pamphlet for 50cent.
...and Charles W Button did state that his sub-editor John William Sherman, wrote the Beale Papers.
By their very involvement with the Beale Papers is proof that they all had knowledge concerning the creation of the job pamphlet.

Different theories exist as to why.

Did Charles W Button offer any proof for what he said?

 

[Old Silver]

...and Charles W Button did state that his sub-editor John William Sherman, wrote the Beale Papers.

It's a fact that the Beale papers were changed, or in other words, EDITED. Whether this was done by the author himself, or by the editor of the newspaper, I don't know. We do know that's what editors do, and the papers were published, so...

 

[ECS]

...

Did Charles W Button offer any proof for what he said?

Button made the statement while both Ward and Sherman were alive. They did not dispute the statement.
Reckon Button didn't need to have proof.
Also, Button owned the print shop where Sherman printed the Beale Papers job pamphlet.

 

[Old Silver]

Button made the statement while both Ward and Sherman were alive. They did not dispute the statement.
Reckon Button didn't need to have proof.
Also, Button owned the print shop where Sherman printed the Beale Papers job pamphlet.

There's a ton of things that have been found, many recently, that were previously thought to not exist. Just because something has not been found, that doesn't mean it doesn't, or didn't, exist. So you haven't found any articles where Ward or Sherman disputed claims made by Button? Where did Button make that statement?

Another possibility: An edit is a rewrite. Could the statement have meant that Sherman rewrote (edited) the story?

 

[ECS]

Well one thing that has not been found is any conclusive evidence that can prove that anything in the Beale Papers narrative text ever happened.
Why would there be articles where Ward or Sherman disputed Button's statement?
In a 1930,s interview by Mrs Martha Rivers Adams that appeared in the LYNCHBURG NEWS, Ward's daughter, Adeline Ward McVeigh, said her father wrote the Beale Papers.
Two statements, by those who knew the copyright owner and publisher and printer of the Beale Papers, made many years apart.
Do you believe that Button or Mrs McVeigh lied? If so, why?

 

[Old Silver]

Well one thing that has not been found is any conclusive evidence that can prove that anything in the Beale Papers narrative text ever happened.
Why would there be articles where Ward or Sherman disputed Button's statement?
In a 1930,s interview by Mrs Martha Rivers Adams that appeared in the LYNCHBURG NEWS, Ward's daughter, Adeline Ward McVeigh, said her father wrote the Beale Papers.
Two statements, by those who knew the copyright owner and publisher and printer of the Beale Papers, made many years apart.
Do you believe that Button or Mrs McVeigh lied? If so, why?

On the contrary, quite a few things have been found that support the story. That doesn't make the story true, at least in it's entirety. And that's what I say about the other side of that coin. Circumstantial evidence exists aginst the story being true, just as it exists for it being true. Neither side had proof.

You're the one who said Ward and Sherman didn't dispute the statement.

So you have one source who says that Sherman wrote the story, and then another source who says that Ward wrote it. And you call what you have proof?
It seems that maybe YOU are the one who believe that one of them lied, because they clearly make two DIFFERENT claims.

 

[ECS]

On the contrary, quite a few things have been found that support the story...

So you have one source who says that Sherman wrote the story, and then another source who says that Ward wrote it. And you call what you have proof?
It seems that maybe YOU are the one who believe that one of them lied, because they clearly make two DIFFERENT claims.

Old Silver, you stated that "quite a few things have been found that support the story"- Please list these things for the readers of this thread.
Also, you had mentioned the it was claimed that Beale discovered the gold and silver at Victorio Peak. I'll ask once again the question of who made this claim.
I never stated that the Button and McVeigh statements were proof, that is an assumption on your part. I only posted the statements for the purpose of information.
If you have read any of my posts on this and other threads, you would know my thoughts on the creation of the Beale Papers, that it was a group effort, by James Beverly Ward, Harriet Otey Buford Ward, John William Sherman, and F C Hutter, and possibly, Max Guggenheimer.
Before you set out to barrage me with constant stream of irrelevant questions for whatever agenda you seem to be on, please reread this thread, I have explained many times what my opinions are based, and then research the information given.

 

[Old Silver]

Old Silver, you stated that "quite a few things have been found that support the story"- Please list these things for the readers of this thread.
Also, you had mentioned the it was claimed that Beale discovered the gold and silver at Victorio Peak. I'll ask once again the question of who made this claim.
I never stated that the Button and McVeigh statements were proof, that is an assumption on your part. I only posted the statements for the purpose of information.
If you have read any of my posts on this and other threads, you would know my thoughts on the creation of the Beale Papers, that it was a group effort, by James Beverly Ward, Harriet Otey Buford Ward, John William Sherman, and F C Hutter, and possibly, Max Guggenheimer.
Before you set out to barrage me with constant stream of irrelevant questions for whatever agenda you seem to be on, please reread this thread, I have explained many times what my opinions are based, and then research the information given.

Once again you do what you accuse others of doing.
I have posted much of the things I mentioned. Just read the threads.
There use to be a thread on here about Victorio Peak, and some posters talked about the possibility of it being related to the Beale treasure. The thread may not be here now, I'm not sure. A search should find it if it still exists.
You seem to think your theory is proved. Okay then, I take you are agreeing with me that all any of us have is circumstantial or suggestive evidence?
What "agenda" do you suppose I have? I think you see where I say I don't know if the Beale story is true, or false. I say, for all I know, any number of theories could be the right one. That includes the one you favor.

 

[ECS]

You're welcome to post, just not to hijack and badger other posters. You are well known for this...

You realize that you are doing exactly the same thing that you accused me of doing.

 

[Old Silver]

You realize that you are doing exactly the same thing that you accused me of doing.

Oh, so you're parroting me. Okay, I can live with that.

 

[ECS]

...I have no argument, so I'll try to make you look bad so I can look good.

This statement reveals volumes.

 

[Old Silver]

This statement reveals volumes.

Since it's YOUR statement and not mine, I will agree.

 

[ECS]

Old Silver, you made that statement on post #1162 on this thread.
Are you now denying that ?

 

[Old Silver]

Old Silver, you made that statement on post #1162 on this thread.
Are you now denying that ?

As anyone can tell my reading that post, that was me sarcastically quoting you. It wasn't MY quote.

Originally Posted by ECS Time to hang that cape back in the closet, no one on these threads is calling for a crusading hero to save them from an evil cabal of "debunkers".

My quote:

Which is translated as: I have no argument, so I'll try to make you look bad so I can look good.

I would say nice try, but it wasn't. It was actually pretty pitiful, since anyone can read it and tell for themselves. What were you trying to do with that, get me in trouble with the mods?

 

[ECS]

I am through with responding to your constant mocking, harassment , and insults.
The Beale threads once contained civil discussions and discourse, but have degenerated to a state of constant bickering of inflammatory remarks, sometimes accompanied by denigrating photos. Instead of discussing why one disagrees with the research presented, it has become a game of attacking the messenger, of which I will no longer play.

 

[ECS]

I don't find most of the similarities between E F Beale's papers and Ward's pamphlet to be all that telling, but I believe, based solely on one find, that you are likely right; that indeed elements of the earlier Beale Paper influenced the latter.

Started expedition in St Louis --- --- Left St Louis - St. Louis was called the "Gateway City" for a reason- virtually all central and southwestern expeditions left from it- so this isn't strong.

Expedition had 30 men--- --- Expedition had 30 men- not an unusual amount; the 1812 Becknell expedition had 30, Lewis/Clark had 33, the Nordic explorers mentioned on the Kensington Runestone also numbered 30.

Went to Santa Fe --- --- Went to Santa Fe- Like St. Louis, its called the Santa Fe Trail for a reason. If you went into the southwest after 1822 you took that trail and you went through Santa Fe. Not strong.

Traveled in Colorado--- ---Found gold and silver in Colorado- again, not unusual. Gold and silver is what lured most Americans to Colorado. When Zebulon Pike was in Santa Fe in 1807, he met an American named "Pursley" who said he too had discovered gold afew years earlier in Colorado.

Born in 1822 --- ---Letters to Morriss dated 1822, Ward born 1822- True

Published journal as "THE BEALE PAPERS"--- ---Ward pamphlet "THE BEALE PAPERS"- actually, this isn't quite accurate. Ward's paper also includes all the secondary wordings listed on the front cover as part of its copyright/title....its long a very clunky...and very typical of the 19th Century.
...

One journey listed as 1817 miles--- --- Started journey in 1817- True

Gold was NOT found by E F --- ---One of T J's men found the gold- again, referencing Pursley above- just not strong evidence. The "Denver Nuggets" were given that name for a reason.

Recieved $13,000 for an adventure--- --- Exchanged silver for $13,000 for transportation- This is compelling and perhaps the strongest indication that the 1850 Beale Papers were indeed referenced to produce the 1885 Beale Papers. "$13,000" is just too specific a number to be coincidence.

Similar words and terms used in both "BEALE PAPERS"- This isn't strong enough evidence.

So the question arises-Happenstance,Coincidence,or Deliberate Plaglarism on the part of Ward to sell a concocted treasure story with one solved cipher solved,the other two unsolvable?...

I believe a variation of the third option is most likely; not out and out plagerism per se but simply a borrowing of elements. Its what was borrowed which is important... I also don't believe Ward was the author. For Ward, why be inspired, literally out of the blue, to pen such an odd document and then never write again?
I don't believe it was written for profit either however. I'm just musing over the amount of effort involved to have typeset it all- not just the ciphers but number-keying the DOI as well... If all the extant copies were destroyed and the author and typesetter had no way to reproduce what had been lost, what would the reason have been to never let the cat out of the bag later on...particularly given the fact that almost no read the original to begin with? I mean, who cares at that point?
​

The Enigmatist has another take on the story behind the Beale Papers that involves Freemasonry, and has post a thread with a detailed explanation. It is well researched and well worth the time to read it.

 

[ECS]

...and Max Guggenheimer, the only living person during the publication of the job pamphlet who was mentioned in the Beale Papers, was a well known Lynchburg businessman, a friend of Ward, Sherman, and Hutter, was a Mason and conducted many charitable activities in Lynchburg.