WARD BASED HIS STORY ON ORIGINAL "THE BEALE PAPERS" PUBLISHED 1850

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bigscoop said:
The events took place 1817 - 1822......the pamphlet came out in 1885.....roughly 60 years.
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...and that is the crux.Why publish this story in 1885 for all who purchased the pamphlet to find a supposed treasure?
Did these events really occur in 1817-1822 or was this just a literary device for a dime novel treasure story?
Remember,Beale Sr died in New Orleans,Sept,1820/Beale Jr died in New Orleans,Oct 1823,then there is Chlory Delancy/Chloe Dalancy/Delaney of Botetourt County,Virginia laying claim to Beale's Virginia property-but the Beale story remains unknown until the 1885 publication.Then the never ending hunt for Beale's treasure begins,and continues until this day and beyond,with theory upon theory piled on to give credence to what may be nothing more than a period dime novel treasure story.
 

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bigscoop said:
Which party to the Beale Papers had an uncle that was at Galveston Island, was involved in a secret transferring of gold from west to east at exactly the same period offered in the Beale Papers, lived in Bedford Co., and eventually moved from Bedford Co. to be near the Vine & Olive colony? This same person was also tied very strongly to several men - who in turn - were tied directly to Thomas Jefferson, James Monroe, John Adams, and the Bonapartes. Letters exist between members of the Bonaparte family and heads of state concerning monies paid - some of these letter written directly from Richmond. Members of the Bonaparte family, as well as some of their most ardent and trusted associates, visited Liberty, Lynchburg, etc., and they were even still trying to buy property their as late as 1863, while they were in Richmond. And of course, there's a lot more, but if all of this is just another rabbit hole...
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Yes,of course it is just another rabbit hole.Jean LaFitte's memoirs mention a "Mr Sherman" and a "Mr Ward" at Galveston,but where is the connection to the Beale Papers or to Beale or to the treasure?
The Bonaparte family trying to buy property in Virginia in 1863-once again where is the connection to the Beale Papers or to Beale or to the treasure?
 

ECS said:
Yes,of course it is just another rabbit hole.Jean LaFitte's memoirs mention a "Mr Sherman" and a "Mr Ward" at Galveston,but where is the connection to the Beale Papers or to Beale or to the treasure?
The Bonaparte family trying to buy property in Virginia in 1863-once again where is the connection to the Beale Papers or to Beale or to the treasure?
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Some of it has been put out here already, at least a couple of times. Don't know anything about "a Mr. Ward being at Galveston", though there is a Mr. Ward mentioned in the memoirs. The Sherman/Laffite/Beale/Bonaparte connections have also been put out here at least a few times - their activities can all also be traced back to the Bedford Co./Richmond area as well. And we know gold was to be distributed to the "indicated places" during the exact period of the Beale Pamphlet events. We can also establish that the deposits were made on an exact time table with the signing and ratification of the Adams Onis Treaty, which in turn we can also connect the Texas settlements to that treaty and we can connect Monroe, Adams, etc. directly to the Laffites and to the Bonapartes. The Bonapartes were also in Richmond and the Bedford region during "all" of the event periods in the Beale Pamphlet, as we the Lallamands/Laffites. John Sherman's uncle was party to much of this....."Mr. Sherman" was directly involved with the "gold distributions to the indicated places as promised". "Mr. Sjerman" can be traced back to Bedford Co. and to the Bonapartes/Girard/Patterson, etc. Sure, it's a rabbit hole....but it's a darn strong one.
 

ECS said:
...and that is the crux.Why publish this story in 1885 for all who purchased the pamphlet to find a supposed treasure?
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That was never a concern of publishing the pamphlet. We are told in the pamphlet that the author had little trouble solving the rest of the ciphers, so don't expect the published ciphers to be accurate. The author also tells us exactly why he published the pamphlet, this being the hope that the critical "unintelligible" piece of paper could be discovered......i.e., completed ciphers would do no good without the 4 digit keyword list - C1 having 19 of these additional 4 digit codes. (This practice was very common during the period). As for a treasure - not likely it still existed after 1832.
 

bigscoop said:
That was never a concern of publishing the pamphlet. We are told in the pamphlet that the author had little trouble solving the rest of the ciphers, so don't expect the published ciphers to be accurate. The author also tells us exactly why he published the pamphlet, this being the hope that the critical "unintelligible" piece of paper could be discovered......i.e., completed ciphers would do no good without the 4 digit keyword list - C1 having 19 of these additional 4 digit codes. (This practice was very common during the period). As for a treasure - not likely it still existed after 1832.
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Now THAT... is a "RABBIT HOLE"!
 

Rebel - KGC said:
Now THAT... is a "RABBIT HOLE"!
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Sure, sounds a bit far fetched when you don't have all the details.....I agree. Rabbit hole? Maybe, maybe not. But one thing is very clear....these people were rooted in the Liberty-Bedford/Richmond/Lynchburg area and they were conducting routine business there from at least 1816 - 1832. Not going to find this stuff in your local history books though, but it is all fact just the same.
 

bigscoop said:
Sure, sounds a bit far fetched when you don't have all the details.....I agree. Rabbit hole? Maybe, maybe not. But one thing is very clear....these people were rooted in the Liberty-Bedford/Richmond/Lynchburg area and they were conducting routine business there from at least 1816 - 1832. Not going to find this stuff in your local history books though, but it is all fact just the same.
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...but where is the connection to the Sherman/Ward Beale pamphlet of 1885?
 

bigscoop said:
Sure, sounds a bit far fetched when you don't have all the details.....I agree. Rabbit hole? Maybe, maybe not. But one thing is very clear....these people were rooted in the Liberty-Bedford/Richmond/Lynchburg area and they were conducting routine business there from at least 1816 - 1832. Not going to find this stuff in your local history books though, but it is all fact just the same.
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"All fact" from where...?
 

Rebel - KGC said:
"All fact" from where...?
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Hours & hours & many years of going through personal correspondences, collections - both public and private, various documents and official records, etc. (And not just by myself, but also through private correspondences with a many other people and individuals with direct access.) You can search the web until you are blue in the face and never find even the briefest of mention to some of the documents/correspondences, etc., that exist. It continually floors me sometimes how some of this stuff remains so well hidden from view. If i were to guess, I'd say there is still several mountains of documents etc., tucked away in boxes where nobody ever goes, or where nobody really cares, or where nobody has the funding, time, or resources to care.
 

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ECS said:
...but where is the connection to the Sherman/Ward Beale pamphlet of 1885?
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Some of this has already been posted/touched on. However, without being too specific:
A) I'm fairly confident that I know who was behind the publishing of the Beale Pamphlet as well as who provided the funding for entire affair.
B) I'm fairly confident that I know why the pamphlet was published.
C) I'm fairly confident that there is no treasure, not anymore.

Earlier you asked the question about motive - so in response I can only ask you why the ten-year term? Why not 5 years, or 8 years, or 15 years, etc.? What was so special about 10-years? Keep in mind that we are told in the pamphlet that there was a targeted amount being sought and that it hadn't been reached yet. Also keep in mind, that at the time of the Beale story events Napoleon was still alive, the French had been removed from the Texas region, and they still had an obligation to meet - an 1817 obligation with a 14 year term attached to it, or by year ending 1831 (or overdue by the first of 1832). Within all of this is the likely real source behind the Beale Pamphlet story, a story that ended up being finalized long before, and without the knowledge of our author of interest. In essence, he was looking for something that no longer existed.
 

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I came across two more Beale "Rabbit Hole" tales.
One claims that Thomas Jefferson skimmed some of Napolean's gold from the Louisana Purchase,and had one of his slaves children,Thomas Jefferson Beale,bury the gold in Poplar Forest.
The other claims that the Rev John Rankin,an abolitionist,wrote it under the pseudonym,J B Ward,as a hidden message and guide for the underground railroad,that contained coded phrases directing runaway slaves to safe houses(stations)in Bedford County,Virginia.Somehow Morriss found a copy,and so the story goes.
 

ECS said:
I came across two more Beale "Rabbit Hole" tales.
One claims that Thomas Jefferson skimmed some of Napolean's gold from the Louisana Purchase,and had one of his slaves children,Thomas Jefferson Beale,bury the gold in Poplar Forest.
The other claims that the Rev John Rankin,an abolitionist,wrote it under the pseudonym,J B Ward,as a hidden message and guide for the underground railroad,that contained coded phrases directing runaway slaves to safe houses(stations)in Bedford County,Virginia.Somehow Morriss found a copy,and so the story goes.
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They ARE "Rabbit Holes"... haven't heard/read either one. There IS a "foundation of a MYSTERY HOUSE" at Poplar Forest, tho; NO ONE knows who it was for... In TJ's days, PF was a HUGE "Plantation Retreat" (4,600 acres) for TJ. Later, CS HUTTER & family (ES Hutter, FC Hutter, etc.) owned it & lived there; JB Ward (BEALE PAPERS - AGENT for the author) PROBABLY played there, with his cousins, ES & FC Hutter.
 

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ECS said:
...but where is the connection to the Sherman/Ward Beale pamphlet of 1885?
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You know, I like part of your theory, that it was simply a dime novel based on past writings, etc. What you propose is possible, however, the part about Sherman, Ward, Hutter all taking part in the creating of the story....beyond the pamphlet, "you can't even establish that Ward, Sherman, Hutter had any type of association at all beyond a blood relation. Not a single piece of evidence to support that they even held any close association at all. And as for Hutter....I still have no idea how you maintain that he took any part in the affair at all? This, to me, is the extreme weakness in your proposal. i.e., why not just say, "Sherman wrote it by himself?" Why toss in this other association/complication that you can't even establish?
 

bigscoop said:
You know, I like part of your theory, that it was simply a dime novel based on past writings, etc. What you propose is possible, however, the part about Sherman, Ward, Hutter all taking part in the creating of the story....beyond the pamphlet, "you can't even establish that Ward, Sherman, Hutter had any type of association at all beyond a blood relation. Not a single piece of evidence to support that they even held any close association at all. And as for Hutter....I still have no idea how you maintain that he took any part in the affair at all? This, to me, is the extreme weakness in your proposal. i.e., why not just say, "Sherman wrote it by himself?" Why toss in this other association/complication that you can't even establish?
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John W. Sherman DIDN'T write the "BP"; SOME of his ideas (treasures stories) MAY have been used; have seen NOTHING that would indicate Sherman was "kin" to the Hutters. Define "establish"; as in PROOF...?
 

bigscoop said:
Hours & hours & many years of going through personal correspondences, collections - both public and private, various documents and official records, etc. (And not just by myself, but also through private correspondences with a many other people and individuals with direct access.) You can search the web until you are blue in the face and never find even the briefest of mention to some of the documents/correspondences, etc., that exist. It continually floors me sometimes how some of this stuff remains so well hidden from view. If i were to guess, I'd say there is still several mountains of documents etc., tucked away in boxes where nobody ever goes, or where nobody really cares, or where nobody has the funding, time, or resources to care.
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"Bring it out", then; EXPOSE IT!
 

Rebel - KGC said:
John W. Sherman DIDN'T write the "BP"; SOME of his ideas (treasures stories) MAY have been used; have seen NOTHING that would indicate Sherman was "kin" to the Hutters. Define "establish"; as in PROOF...?
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Well, that's just it. In order to have a "they didit together" type theory/proposal, you have to be able to establish "they" had an actual association. Hutter - like you say, I have seen nothing to establish that he ever had any type of an association with Ward & Sherman or the publishing of the Beale Pamphlet. As for Ward & Sherman, pretty much the same thing here - beyond the pamphlet tie there's no other evidence to support that they had any type of an association.

"Sherman didn't write the BP".....I agree, but and you know this with 100% certainty how?
 

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bigscoop said:
... The Sherman/Laffite/Beale/Bonaparte connections... - their activities can all also be traced back to the Bedford Co./Richmond area as well... The Bonapartes were also in Richmond and the Bedford region during "all" of the event periods in the Beale Pamphlet, as we the Lallamands/Laffites. John Sherman's uncle was party to much of this... can be traced back to Bedford Co. and to the Bonapartes/Girard/Patterson, etc...
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It is known that Girard had agents in the area to procure Appalachian ginseng for his China opium trade,but what were the specific business activities of the Bonapartes,Lallamands,Lafittes,and Patterson that had direct connection to Bedford county?
 

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