WARD BASED HIS STORY ON ORIGINAL "THE BEALE PAPERS" PUBLISHED 1850

[tat2guy]

Reb, Franklin, Scoop, and ECS,


Late this week I've run across a new source that was publishing things about all the people we've talked about. I'll spill the beans soon I promise. I wanna dig into it first. But what I've seen so far has documents from Robert Morris of Lynchburg Va. and many others. This also is able to be viewed online. So as to you friends of common research by Tuesday I will give you guys the link and ties.

Franklin this is looking like it will tie your research to some key Frenchmen. I think you and BS are on to the same destination using 2 different paths.

HH Jay

 

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[ECS]

Lisa, Chouteau, Lucas, Kennerly,.......what did they all have in common?

They were either related by marriages between the families or through business interests.Rufus Easton and J B C Lucas were both appointed to Territorial Councils as judges by Thomas Jefferson.Lucas also had a copy of the "JEFFERSON DOCUMENT",like d'Estrehan of New Orleans.
Lucas,who was born in France and a friend of Benjamin Franklin, was also sent on a 1801 mission by Jefferson to provide information on the Spanish and French in the Louisana Territory.
...and yes,they all had wealth through their endeavours in St Louis.

 

[bigscoop]

Reb, Franklin, Scoop, and ECS,


Franklin this is looking like it will tie your research to some key Frenchmen. I think you and BS are on to the same destination using 2 different paths.

HH Jay

Franklin, I said before that I thought you were closer then you realized and that you were probably the one guy who could nip this in the butt if you would only look elsewhere. I said this because there is simply too much coincidence in the various paths we have taken. I've not been able to explain this, but perhaps now Tat may be able to shed some light on things. We've been looking for some missing links and he is up on the situation so perhaps he has finally found some.

 

[bigscoop]

Franklin, "Good luck to you. I really do hope you yank something special from the earth one day."

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Franklin, "Good luck to you. I really do hope you yank something special from the earth one day."

AGREE! Water-Witching DOES work... did it myself, when I was younger (water lines ONLY, LOL!). Good Luck! HH!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

STILL raining... Phsssttthhh! MOST Th'ers use Deductive Logic, SOME use INDUCTIVE LOGIC; MORE difficult (IMHO).

 

[bigscoop]

You know, I've not brought this up yet, but I think I know why George Graham went to Galveston Island in 1818. Here's what I think may have actually been the case;

It all goes back to the agreed neutral ground and the fact that neither the US or Spain had jurisdiction over the region. Add to this that the western boundaries of the Louisiana Purchase were still in dispute, meaning clear ownership of a large region had yet to be determined. One thing I have repeatedly encountered when researching the French in Texas was their constant referencing of the region as being, "our territory", which I found to be rather odd since the French no longer owned any portion of the region, or did they? So let's go back to the agreed neutral territory and the dispute over the legal boundaries which in effect left that region without a clear owner. Now comes the French and suddenly a third party has, perhaps, "legally settled in the territory". If this was the case then it would also explain why Laffite claims in his memoirs that he attended meetings with Adam's, Monroe, and de Onis, talks which even included prisoner exchanges, and perhaps why he also makes repeated references in regards to his lawyers been busy in Washington. We assume this to mean that this lawyers were still trying to get him reimbursed for his confiscated losses at New Orleans, however, there may just have been something more as well.

In 1818 the Adam's Onis Treaty was signed, a treaty that would remove the neutral zone, establish clear boundaries, and also establish clear ownership. As is typical with these type of treaties "spoliation claims" nearly always come into play. So, perhaps George Graham went to Galveston Island to address this very issue? One of the signs that this may have actually been the case has to do with the "American" vessel that arrived off of Galveston Island to insure that Laffite was leaving. BIG QUESTION here is this; why was this an American vessel when the Island wasn't even to become an American territory under the new treaty? Why wasn't this a Spanish vessel?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

You know, I've not brought this up yet, but I think I know why George Graham went to Galveston Island in 1818. Here's what I think may have actually been the case;

It all goes back to the agreed neutral ground and the fact that neither the US or Spain had jurisdiction over the region. Add to this that the western boundaries of the Louisiana Purchase were still in dispute, meaning clear ownership of a large region had yet to be determined. One thing I have repeatedly encountered when researching the French in Texas was their constant referencing of the region as being, "our territory", which I found to be rather odd since the French no longer owned any portion of the region, or did they? So let's go back to the agreed neutral territory and the dispute over the legal boundaries which in effect left that region without a clear owner. Now comes the French and suddenly a third party has, perhaps, "legally settled in the territory". If this was the case then it would also explain why Laffite claims in his memoirs that he attended meetings with Adam's, Monroe, and de Onis, talks which even included prisoner exchanges, and perhaps why he also makes repeated references in regards to his lawyers been busy in Washington. We assume this to mean that this lawyers were still trying to get him reimbursed for his confiscated losses at New Orleans, however, there may just have been something more as well.

In 1818 the Adam's Onis Treaty was signed, a treaty that would remove the neutral zone, establish clear boundaries, and also establish clear ownership. As is typical with these type of treaties "spoliation claims" nearly always come into play. So, perhaps George Graham went to Galveston Island to address this very issue? One of the signs that this may have actually been the case has to do with the "American" vessel that arrived off of Galveston Island to insure that Laffite was leaving. BIG QUESTION here is this; why was this an American vessel when the Island wasn't even to become an American territory under the new treaty? Why wasn't this a Spanish vessel?

It was AMERICAN because "Texas" had "wanna-be AMERICANS"... the TEXICANS or TEXANS; later to become the REPUBLIC of Texas. The French were told to BUGGER OFF! They went west; Spain lost to Mexican Independence (PROBABLY with French help). Mexico lost "Texas", later; by the time of the American "Civil" War... had a FRENCH Emperor (MAX)... THUS, the LEGENDS OF MAXILIAN'S GOLD. You can also "google" MIER EXPEDITION, STRUGGLE for MONARCHY on the U.S. - Mexican Border. HH!

 

[bigscoop]

I believe Graham went to Galveston with knowledge of the treaty and that he had been authorized to pursue whatever deal he could with the French.

 

[bigscoop]

Bigscoop, The reason Graham went to Galveston Island was most likely to clarify the purchase of the Louisiana and Mississippi Territories in 1804. The Lewis & Clark's expedition was to find the sources of all rivers and streams flowing into the Mississippi River. There were also expeditions into Illinois, Montana and North and South Dakota to follow these water courses because that is what President Thomas Jefferson purchased from Napoleon and the French. The French had claim to the land in 1726 which was over 40 years before the lands claimed by the Spanish. During the Mexican Revolution in which they expelled the Spanish the American Government had over 30,000 american or patriot soldiers in the Third Division of the Mexican Army. Over 1,500 Texicans were in the Battle of Medina only 100 survived the others were killed in battle but most were executed after the battle had been fought. Dr. Robertson that was with Lt. Pike in 1806 & 1807 was a General in the Patriot Army. The Patriot Army was Sons of Liberty which later became the KGC or Knights of the Golden Circle. Dr. Robertson was on his way with his brother and a party of Sons of Liberty escorting 40,000 rifles and 20 kegs of powder to General Detroit which was defeated at the Battle of Medina. I am writing my new book on this very subject so I have researched it pretty well----already have six chapters written. But anyway most of the discussions or talks you refer to where arranged by what later became the KGC in 1836.

Monroe sent Graham to Galveston Island in 1818, though his exact objectives for sending him are somewhat unclear. While there Graham spent a great deal of time with both Laffite & Lallemand. Louis de Onis was putting a great deal of pressure on the US in regards to the French in the region and their presence there was a major concern leading up to, and during the treaty talks.

 

[ECS]

Girard, Joseph Bonaparte, Napoleon, the Lallemands... Pay extremely close attention to any shipping or ship building and refitting details that you encounter, the coincidences will floor you. This same thing occurs in many of the proposed plans to rescue Napoleon. And let's not overlook some of the details in Girard's early privateering and shipping interest...

Nicholas Girod was the 5th mayor of New Orleans,and was aquainted with Lafitte and many of the captains of Baratarian pirates.One in paticular was Capt Dominique Youx,who fought alongside Lafitte,and Capt Thomas Beales's New Orleans Sharpshooters during the Battle of New Orleans.
Girod built the mansion on St Louis and Chartes in New Orleans.
In the 1915 issue of THE NEW ORLEANS CATHOLIC JOURNAL,an article appeared by H B Seebold,MD,concerning his interview with Gaspard Cusachs,an associate of Girod during that time period.
Cusachs detailed how N Girold outfitted and financed with aid from Philadelphia,the pirate Youx,for the rescue of Napolean,and to bring him to New Orleans.
Girod's WILL became a Supreme Court case MICHOUD v. GIROD #45 US 503(1846)and provides interesting reading.
Information of Beale,Lafitte,and Youx during the Battle of New Orleans:
Jean Lafitte NHP: Historic Resource Study
Many other familar names will also appear.

 

[bigscoop]

There were many plans to free Napoleon. In fact Tat and I are convinced after researching many of these schemes and the actual situation surrounding Napoleon on that island that it was Napoleon's own vanity that kept him on that island. For some reason he just wasn't going to leave that island unless he could do it with his head held high. There is also evidence that he feared the possibility of assassination attempts that would find his body anchored to the seafloor as soon as his "rescue ship" was far enough out to sea.

 

[bigscoop]

We will never learn the true secrets until the treasures are recovered. It will happen in the near future guaranteed.

I don't know. "If" there were two deposits there's a good chance they were removed long ago. But, there is also still a slim chance that maybe not?

 

[ECS]

Here's what I think you will eventually workout......the whole "Beale/Beall" issue is very misleading and confusing as far as who was actually who...

1816- Laffite occupies Galveston Island.
1817- APRIL,Beale expedition travels west and finds gold and some silver and works mine for 18 months until Oct 1818.Beale Sr-53,Beale Jr 17,during 1817.
1817- Vine & Olive Land Grant is approved.
1817- A Captain Thomas Beale/Beall is aboard a vessel transporting French refugees.
1817- French Refugees from New Orleans begin to arrive at Galveston Island
1818- Adam’s Onis Treaty is signed. Graham visits Texas. Lallemand leaves with Graham and fails to carry out his promise to return.
1819-According to Beale cipher,Beale makes first deposit in Virginia.
1820-Sept-Beale Sr dies in New Orleans,age 56.
1821- Beale (Jr?) spends winter at Washington Hotel and gives Morriss iron box with ciphers.
1821- Adam’s Onis Treaty is ratified.
1821- Laffite leaves Galveston.
1821-According to Beale cipher,Beale makes 2nd deposit in Virginia.
1822-Beale(Jr?) returns to Washinton Hotel and spends the winter.
1823- Monroe Doctrine introduced on December 2.
1823-Oct-Beale Jr dies in New Orleans,age 24.
1829/30 – The Laffites & Joseph Boneparte are in Richmond for nearly a year. While there Joseph Boneparte writes President Monroe a letter inquiring about payments received for services rendered, Monroe replies “utterly” denying the claim. (The Monroe letter still survives while Boneparte’s letter seems to have disappeared for the time being?)

TENUOUS CONNECTIONS OF THE PLAYERS
THE "JEFFERSON DOCUMENT"- d'Estrehan(New Orleans),Lucas(St Louis)
NEW ORLEANS-Grandpre,Lafitte,d'Estrehan,Youx,Beale,Girod
WAR OF 1812/BATTLE OF NEW ORLEANS-Girard,Lafitte,Youx,Beale,Patterson
CHAMP d' ASILE-Lallemand,Lafitte,Youx,Graham,Trammel
PLAN TO RESCUE NAPLOEAN-Lallemand,Youx,Girod
BALTIMORE -Jerome Bonaparte,Patterson
PHILADELPHIA-Girand,Lallemand,Patterson,Joseph Bonaparte,Clay
ST LOUIS-Bank of St Louis,Lucas,Lafitte,& by way of FINCASTLE-Kennerly,Beale
These are the names that are cross referenced many times on this thread concerning the French connection.
I am sure Bigscoop and Tat could add a few more.

 

[bigscoop]

TENUOUS CONNECTIONS OF THE PLAYERS
THE "JEFFERSON DOCUMENT"- d'Estrehan(New Orleans),Lucas(St Louis)
NEW ORLEANS-Grandpre,Lafitte,d'Estrehan,Youx,Beale,Girod
WAR OF 1812/BATTLE OF NEW ORLEANS-Girard,Lafitte,Youx,Beale,Patterson
CHAMP d' ASILE-Lallemand,Lafitte,Youx,Graham,Trammel
PLAN TO RESCUE NAPLOEAN-Lallemand,Youx,Girod
BALTIMORE -Jerome Bonaparte,Patterson
PHILADELPHIA-Girand,Lallemand,Patterson,Joseph Bonaparte,Clay
ST LOUIS-Bank of St Louis,Lucas,Lafitte,& by way of FINCASTLE-Kennerly,Beale
These are the names that are cross referenced many times on this thread concerning the French connection.
I am sure Bigscoop and Tat could add a few more.

That's just a short list. Maybe Tat will post a "medium" list but I don't think he could find the time. If i were to guess I'd say we've investigated over a 1000 individuals and "possibly" related source materials by now, hardly a day goes by when we're not researching someone or something in our pursuit of the answers. Tat and I speak on the phone several times a week and though I've never met him or his wife I feel I know them both intimately. And contacts, we've developed quit a few, even on-site curators and researchers, authors, historians, etc. So we do have access to a lot of source materials that you just can't get at and wouldn't even know about by any other means. One thing we've come to realize through all of this, "Don't believe everything you read in the history books!"

 

[bigscoop]

Franklin, Reb, ECS, or anyone else who might be interested; give me a chance to talk it over with Tat and I may put something out here "if", and only "if", it serves to encourage the open forum sharing of related information. I think I know what the Beale Pamphlet story was all about, just not sure of some of the "exact" details involved.

 

[bigscoop]

Ok, here it is. "Where, exactly, did Thomas Beale Sr. live prior to his going to New Orleans?" Seems an obvious question and answer, but is it? According to my research he was on the outs with his father so did he live on the family estate or did he live somewhere else? And, after he did go to New Orleans, where did Thomas Jr. live while he was still in Virginia?

The first deposit was made after Beale Sr. went to New Orleans. Thomas Jr. goes to New Orleans in the same year that his father dies, in 1820, then the second deposit is made in 1821. Beale Jr. "thought" he was going to inherit his father's holdings but this ends up getting challenged in the courts and Jr. loses out. It's also at this same time that this mess started that Morriss is given the iron box with a 10 year term.

The notion that Beale Sr. went to New Orleans to escape the ramifications of his duel with Risque is seriously flawed as dueling was perfectly legal during the period. So why did Thomas Beale Sr. really go to New Orleans? Why didn't Jr. go with him at that time? What was the duel really all about? Over honor, most likely, but over a woman, very doubtful. It might interest you guys to learn that one of Risque's areas of legal council was in mining. (Documents do exist to support this claim.)

When Sr. went to New Orleans he ends up organizing Beale's sharpshooters, to which many of Laffite's known associates are members, including his primary lawyer. Beale Jr. is still living "somewhere" in Virginia, but, "where exactly?" So the burning question is this; "Did Beale Sr. own property in Virginia while he was in New Orleans, and if so, where was it and what became of it after his death?" And if he didn't own property in Virginia, then where "exactly" was Beale Jr. staying prior to his going to New Orleans?

 

[bigscoop]

I still believe the Thomas Beale's in New Orleans is mixed up, at least the Thomas Beale that was over Beale's Rifles in the Battle of New Orleans. I do not believe he was either of the TJB's from Fincastle. There was only on military TJB at that time in history and he was from Bealesville, PA and died at Fort Armstrong in 1832 during the Blackhawk Wars.

Beale's Sharpshooters were all "volunteers" so it would be expected that no official military records would exist for that rifle regiment. But regardless, the question still remains as to possible Virginia holdings of Beale Sr. and the exact whereabouts of Jr. after Sr. had moved to New Orleans. In the Beale pamphlet it is made mention that an unnamed individual lived with Morriss for an extended period of time, so, was this possibly Jr., or perhaps even Sr. prior to his going to New Orleans? Point is, they had to have lived somewhere in Virginia, but "exactly" where did they live?

 

[bigscoop]

By the way, as best as I can figure, the duel took place sometime in the 1808 - 1809 period. At this time Napoleon was involved in the:
Peninsular War
War of the Fifth Coalition

Risque "was" of French heritage, and when we research the family histories of these two families and the women the duel was said to be over, it is more likely that the duel was over, "political insults/beliefs". And where did Sr. go after this duel and who did he end up associating with? He ended up associating with the Napoleon supporters based in New Orleans.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

By the way, as best as I can figure, the duel took place sometime in the 1808 - 1809 period. At this time Napoleon was involved in the:
Peninsular War
War of the Fifth Coalition

Risque "was" of French heritage, and when we research the family histories of these two families and the women the duel was said to be over, it is more likely that the duel was over, "political insults/beliefs". And where did Sr. go after this duel and who did he end up associating with? He ended up associating with the Napoleon supporters based in New Orleans.

Only ONE woman was the "center" of the duel... 16 year old Julia Hancock; was she "kin" to John HANCOCK of the DOI...? Dunno; she LATER went on to marry Clark... of the Lewis & Clark Expedition.