Waltz and known facts, not stories

[sdcfia]

... Plus most folks would consider John D. Mitchell as the worst kind of source imaginable, since he obtained virtually all of his information by simply talking to local people and other lost mine/treasure hunters, Indians etc. ...

I consider Mitchell a folklorist - much in the same vein as Dobie and others. Entertaining, certainly, but way too far from the flame to sufficiently heat you up. And, like most humans, if Mitchell did somehow possess privileged information about secreted riches (as some say), he certainly wouldn't blab it to the world. That's the kicker with most "treasure legends".

 

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[EarnieP]

...

[OT: By the way, since I know you're interested in cryptozoology - the giant bird my searching partner and I reported seeing in the Cookes Range 10-12 years ago was recently spotted again. This time seen by a group of Benedictine monks directly above their monastery just north of Silver City. Again, a wingspan estimated to be 20+ feet.]

I remember a report of a giant bird being sited by several people in around 1976.
I was living in Las Cruces NM at the time and one dusk looked up into the sky and saw what looked to be a huge bird very very high up.
Of course, like I said it was 1976 and I just may have been hallucinating for some reason...

"Keep your eyes to the sky, and your nose to the ground."

 

[deducer]

My opinion is how doc Thorne gold was from the LDM " placer " . In Bark's notes version , Thorne also saw and the inclined shaft , which in Waltz/Herman stories was the " quartz " mine . From what we know , Waltz said how only the " quartz " mine have found concealed , and the " placer " with the tunnel bellow , was concealed by him . As I wrote in another thread some time ago , the " quartz " mine is about 75 yards afar from the " placer " mine , with the first to be almost in the middle of the small valley , and the second at the lip of the cliff/valley .

Here i want to add how the Two Soldiers mine is not the same with the LDM , but is another mine wich has the same characteristics with the LDM " placer " , like a pit with a tunnel bellow . The Two Soldiers mine is the same mine with that from the Haywood story and is about two miles afar from the LDM . For the instance , here i should tell you how the Haywood map is about 50% accurate , and I wouldn't expect a Native to would give away the place to a " whites " , betraying his clan and his vows . We are lucky because there exist another maps which lead to the same mine .

The impression how Joe Deering found the same mine with the two soldiers is also wrong . Joe Deering found the LDM " placer " mine because the " quartz " mine was concealed and couldn't see it . The " " quartz " mine is almost in the way to the " placer " mine .

I am of the belief that what the two soldiers found, and what Joe Deering stumbled across, was something related to the LDM, if not the LDM itself. There's a reason why the two soldiers and Deering speak of a trick in the trail, but Waltz doesn't. But you have to be out there in the canyon to see it.

My conclusions don't just come from reading the stories, it comes from getting out there into the mountains (my favorite part), putting foot to ground, doing my research, talking to people, and not ruling anything out. None of my conclusions have come from poring over google maps.

 

[markmar]

I am of the belief that what the two soldiers found, and what Joe Deering stumbled across, was something related to the LDM, if not the LDM itself. There's a reason why the two soldiers and Deering speak of a trick in the trail, but Waltz doesn't. But you have to be out there in the canyon to see it.

My conclusions don't just come from reading the stories, it comes from getting out there into the mountains (my favorite part), putting foot to ground, doing my research, talking to people, and not ruling anything out. None of my conclusions have come from poring over google maps.

That's very good for you . I wish you good luck .

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy audigger53,

In my honest opinion you can find many "facts" burried in some of the "stories", you just have to be able to reason to pick them out. Many have tried to debunk some parts of the stories, but some of that debunking falls short as it is based on assumptions. Others judge the stories by judging the writters, or by putting their money on the opinion of a certain "expert". Many of those "experts" have come to the conclusion that if they could not find it, it is not there.

Bottom line, and I believe you will find this out when the mine is found, the deathbed confession is real. The truth tends to come out when someone is about to meet his maker. Waltz stories about how he got the mine before his confession are just stories. Yes there are other stories of other mines as Oroblanco states tangled into the LDM, but we can just brush those aside.

Now as for the Two Soldiers story, I do believe they were selling Dutchman ore. On page 148, Mrs. Helen Corbin points out that there was a pack trail through the mountains used by the soilders to pack supplies from San Carlos, and Picket Post, to Fort McDowell. This has to be the Government trail, and in my opinion those two soldiers at one time were packing supplies on that trail when they spotted Jacob Waltz. They may have recognized him (or not) as the man who sold rich ore at Fort McDowell, and watched him for a while until he dissapeared into the mountain, came back some days later, and found the mine. I believe they made up the wounded deer story. They were not going to admit they were claim jumping, and didn't know if the mine had a claim on it.

On page 149 of Helens book, Waltz confesses killing those two soldiers, just the way they found them. Those two soldiers were not about to reveal where they got the gold, so following their clues is useless.

On other issues that have come up lately, you will find that Dick Holmes took the candlebox of ore from under Waltz's bed, the same day he passed away (page 152 of same book). Dick also stated that he and Mr. Roberts, hand ground most of that ore, setting some aside. They were even seen by Barks as he stated. Thoses things check out, so Holmes did sell mostly cleaned gold, but also had gold in quartz for the matchbox, and jewlery.

I can not find any logical reason why the Dutchman's ore assay would not be real. No other ore matched it, so it was not from the Goldfield area. If Holmes had gotten it from elsewhere, why risk losing it to Julia Thomas? Why would Holmes spent the rest of his life looking for the source of that candlebox ore is he did not get the directions from Jacob Waltz himself?

Homar

 

[Oroblanco]

I consider Mitchell a folklorist - much in the same vein as Dobie and others. Entertaining, certainly, but way too far from the flame to sufficiently heat you up. And, like most humans, if Mitchell did somehow possess privileged information about secreted riches (as some say), he certainly wouldn't blab it to the world. That's the kicker with most "treasure legends".

What "privileged information"? All I was referring to was rather more like a confirmation of Waltz owning a secret gold mine, selling ore, not privileged information. For me, that is a strong indicator that a lost mine exists, worth spending time looking into. I have found Mitchell to be fairly accurate on a number of things, certainly no worse than some of the 'documented' sources that are popular. Besides, some lost mines have been found with even less reliable information than the LDM, like the lost Mojave mine (you can see it from the road west of Quartzsite AZ) or the Silver King for that matter, which was a saloon tale but based on a real discovery. Most lost mines have no ore specimens of any kind available to compare to, only the statements of witnesses. If you don't like trusting witnesses, then you will have very little to work with. Only a very few lost mines are well documented, like the lost Topaz mine of Devils Head in Colorado, which even had a bureau of mines publication done on it but remains lost today.

Please do continue, not trying to convince anyone to accept Mitchell as your source reference, just stating that if we had no matchbox, deathbed confession, Julia, Reiney or Dick Holmes, that simple incident reported by Mitchell would still be enough for ME personally to convince me it is worth pursuing further. I certainly don't expect anyone else to accept that as your own foundation/premise or standard of proof.

 

[sdcfia]

What "privileged information"? All I was referring to was rather more like a confirmation of Waltz owning a secret gold mine, selling ore, not privileged information. For me, that is a strong indicator that a lost mine exists, worth spending time looking into. I have found Mitchell to be fairly accurate on a number of things, certainly no worse than some of the 'documented' sources that are popular. Besides, some lost mines have been found with even less reliable information than the LDM, like the lost Mojave mine (you can see it from the road west of Quartzsite AZ) or the Silver King for that matter, which was a saloon tale but based on a real discovery. Most lost mines have no ore specimens of any kind available to compare to, only the statements of witnesses. If you don't like trusting witnesses, then you will have very little to work with. Only a very few lost mines are well documented, like the lost Topaz mine of Devils Head in Colorado, which even had a bureau of mines publication done on it but remains lost today.

Please do continue, not trying to convince anyone to accept Mitchell as your source reference, just stating that if we had no matchbox, deathbed confession, Julia, Reiney or Dick Holmes, that simple incident reported by Mitchell would still be enough for ME personally to convince me it is worth pursuing further. I certainly don't expect anyone else to accept that as your own foundation/premise or standard of proof.

I didn't make myself clear earlier. No, I suspect Mitchell knew no more about the LDM rumors than anyone else in his time. The "privileged info" that some believe Mitchell possessed had to do with a completely different site in the southern part of AZ, maybe near the railroad route, as I remember. He also wrote about the LDM and many other legends, yes, but as with most writers, these were just retellings of established hearsay. Dobie did the same but embellished the tales much more. I believe treasure writers are primarily adventure writers, not serious searchers. Mitchell may have been an exception. Likewise Karl von Mueller, although I suspect his LUE story was a complete fabrication.

You're right about my "standard of proof" re the LDM and other treasure tales. I guess my life's training requires that decisions be carefully made when possible (I haven't always followed my own advice). Re "lost mines and hidden treasures", I always look for evidence that would encourage me to believe that the story might be true and that a recovery might be possible - enough to motivate a serious commitment anyway. I tend to agree with your general premise that legends such as these likely have a kernel of truth underlying them, but I also believe that things are seldom as they seem, especially when man's seven deadly sins enter the picture.

 

[ink]

AMEN

 

[ORO18]

Yes that's correct,Dock Thorn Took a sample of the ore and had it assayed he then took it to Prescott Az witch was state capitol then and Filled a mine claims in the areas he believed the mine to be. That claimed area is the superstition mining district according to az mindat historical archives.i believe it's mentioned in the Kellinborn chronicles. They Both assayed the same 2200 oz per ton.

 

[Steve Jenkins]

I never understood this in my younger days either. Now that I'm almost as old as dirt, I understand.

Waltz didn't know how long he would live. He knew he would have to live out his natural life on the gold under his bed, since he was too old to go back to the mine. When you get old you'll discover the fear of running out of money leads to very frugal living.

I completely agree with the logic of this statement. He was too old to make another trip out there alone and likely as not to get killed by anyone he hired or partnered with to help.

 

[ORO18]

If you're serious,maps like boot are just another tool in you're arsonal.

 

[Holyground]

"Fact he went to the Queen Creek Trading Post for supplies when he had Wiesner as his partner."

Do you have a source for this?"

I don't believe Jacob Wisner, Weiss or Wise ever existed. Those are names, I believe, Waltz used when he sent gold to whomever he was sending it to. Jake was Wise after he found the mine. Then, he got Wiser and Wisner the longer he kept it a secret, still sending gold to family. Then, he killed all three of them off when he could no longer get up to the mine because of his age. He was in his 50s, close to 60, when he found it. 96 Stay on the trail 96

 

[Al D]

I think he went to Adamsville for supplies

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I think he went to Adamsville for supplies

That story, as I recall it, probably can't be true...Waltz had to wait there an extra day for flour, because Adams didn't have any ready yet...Problem being that Adams never had a mill at Adamsville...the Bichard Bros. built that mill after Adams relocated to the SRV...The Bichard Bros. had bought White's old steam mill at Casa Blanca, and after it was destroyed by a flood, they built the new one at Adamsville...this story seems to me to be embellished after the fact, by someone who didn't know that Adams didn't build the mill at Adamsville.

And, as far as I've been able to find, the only place to get wheat flour in the early '60's would have been White's mill...after '68, the Bichard Bros. mill at Adamsville was completed...soon thereafter a flour mill would have been available at Swilling's ditch...later, both Adams and the Bichard Bros. had mills in PHX...by 1871, Adams would be killed in the Wickenburg massacre...so not much time for Waltz to have interacted with Adams anyway.

 

[Al D]

Great info, thank you

 

[Mc4500]

I agree with you here. The only way to know which "clue" or story is accurate is when the "mine" or site is actually discovered.

 

[Mc4500]

This is a very interesting point that you make. I've been wondering about this for quite a while. Personally I think there's a lot more to the story that we don't know about. I understand that not all men are ambitious and just want to live a quiet life, but it seems odd to me. Another thing that seems odd to me is the name the lost Dutchman. Is it because he was actually Dutch, or because he was lost, as in a lost soul? It isn't difficult for someone of Dutch descent to speak German.

 

[markmar]

I am of the belief that what the two soldiers found, and what Joe Deering stumbled across, was something related to the LDM, if not the LDM itself. There's a reason why the two soldiers and Deering speak of a trick in the trail, but Waltz doesn't. But you have to be out there in the canyon to see it.

My conclusions don't just come from reading the stories, it comes from getting out there into the mountains (my favorite part), putting foot to ground, doing my research, talking to people, and not ruling anything out. None of my conclusions have come from poring over google maps.

To hike out there and talking to people , it's not enough to find the LDMines and whatever you are interested . It will take you just few decades to understand these are not enough . There you need maps and skills to read them , and anything else which could help you , including google maps and topo maps . You need all the " weapons " so to speak , which could help you . Never say is enough this and are worthless the other .
Now , I post a picture of the spot ( not from google maps ) which Waltz used to speak about to Holmes and in the German clues as " saddle " . If you ever hiking those mountains , see this image , then turn to the north , pass through the hole and climb down to the LD mines .

 

[dredgernaut]

heres a fact. Deutschland means Germany. if your from there your Deutsch (pronounced like doych). so Jacob waltz was from Germany or Deutschland. therefore he is the lost Deutschman . NOT Dutchman. that's Holland. IMO. and mostly fact

 

[A2coins]

That gold mine isnt meant to be found