Waltz and known facts, not stories

[audigger53]

Cubfan64 wrote:

With all things "Dutchman," at some point you either have to believe things or not based on whatever you personally think is good enough evidence - that evidence is different for everyone as evidenced by years and years of these same discussions and arguments over and over again without changing hardly anyone's minds.

Thank you Cubfan.

Cubfan has probably posted the most profoundly true statement posted here in many years.

Everyone has to rely on themselves to decide what they believe and don't believe. They need to do their own research, talk to the old timers themselves and get out in the mountains and hike the trails and back country running down the clues.
Books are great but if you are sitting around waiting for someone to give you the inside information or for someone to find the mine for you, you need another hobby.
The old saying, " I don't believe anything I read and only half of what I see", is a good start for searching for the LDM.
Do your own research, do your own hiking, don't whine because you don't know if an assay report is authentic or not.
If it's all too much for you, there's always knitting or oragami you could try.

Matthew

Amen to that. Filter all that you hear or read though your own filter and make your own choices. I chose to stand back and look at what can be verified on all the different treasure and "Lost mines", and then try and use "Common Sense" rather than dreams of greed. Most of the "Lost Mines" were found long ago by men that did not know of the "Lost Stories", but found the gold by either blind luck or by prospecting washes and streams to go back up until finding where the gold came from.
I really like the story behind Sugarloaf. Everyone in town was upset with the new assayer because the results were not what they wanted to hear. They took a broken grindstone and knocked off a piece of it and took it to the assayer to test.
Finally he came out all excited and told them it was rich in Silver. "Hang him!" Even as they took him to the tree he keep saying that he didn't understand why they wanted the sandstone assayed until he did it. They stopped and took him back to his office and he crushed some more of the sandstone and then disolved it and showed them, "See you can see the silver particles falling out of it!" They went back to the man who had the broken grindstone and asked him where he got it. "From a guy in the next town over, he makes them.
They went over there and asked him where he got his Sandstone. He told them and they then mined the ridge known as Sugarloaf. True story from Arizona.

 

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[sdcfia]

It seems likely to me that today's breed of "Dutch hunter" is actually much more addicted to the lore surrounding the legend than an actual search for a mine. That's cool - many folks have specific areas of interest in all sorts of fields that they learn from and build on for a lifetime because ... well, they like it. The LDM gives one an almost endless and sustainable source of history, legend and drama to absorb, along with a group of like-minded colleagues to debate with and a patch of challenging and awesome canyons to connect with. If I lived in AZ, I might even join the fray to some extent, for the fun of it - even though I've not seen any compelling reason to seriously consider pledging significant time and resources actually ground-searching for the "mine." To me, the most intriguing aspect of it all is not so much what parts of the saga people choose to believe, but why they believe them.

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

.... Could it have been one of the bags of not processed ore from the first or second Peralta massacure? ....

Why does eveyone take the "Peralta" involvement with the LDM saga as the Gospel truth? I have tried to independently verify the existance of the "Peralta" clan (independent from the LDM legend) and the only references to them I can find relate to James Addison Reavis (later named PeraltaReavis) and his two court cases against the U.S. gov't. In the 2nd case, experts proved that the Peralta documents were forgeries inserted into the archive records at Guadalajara, Mexico and Seville, Spain. This has lead me to believe the Peraltas are fiction not fact. If they are in fact real, like most here seem to believe, what proof to their existence have I missed?

 

[Doc4261]

It seems likely to me that today's breed of "Dutch hunter" is actually much more addicted to the lore surrounding the legend than an actual search for a mine. That's cool - many folks have specific areas of interest in all sorts of fields that they learn from and build on for a lifetime because ... well, they like it. The LDM gives one an almost endless and sustainable source of history, legend and drama to absorb, along with a group of like-minded colleagues to debate with and a patch of challenging and awesome canyons to connect with. If I lived in AZ, I might even join the fray to some extent, for the fun of it - even though I've not seen any compelling reason to seriously consider pledging significant time and resources actually ground-searching for the "mine." To me, the most intriguing aspect of it all is not so much what parts of the saga people choose to believe, but why they believe them.

NA, I'm coming down in Dec for my trip to prove the H/P map . See if one of the 4 mines are the Dutchman, the rest will be for another year.

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

.....
Another thing. audigger53 makes a good point usually glossed over about Waltz himself. As a career mining man who owned and/or operated a number of claims during his significant career, it's a bit fishy that he lived as such a poor chicken farmer despite allegedly possessing such a rich mine. ....

I never understood this in my younger days either. Now that I'm almost as old as dirt, I understand.

Waltz didn't know how long he would live. He knew he would have to live out his natural life on the gold under his bed, since he was too old to go back to the mine. When you get old you'll discover the fear of running out of money leads to very frugal living.

 

[azdave35]

I never understood this in my younger days either. Now that I'm almost as old as dirt, I understand.

Waltz didn't know how long he would live. He knew he would have to live out his natural life on the gold under his bed, since he was too old to go back to the mine. When you get old you'll discover the fear of running out of money leads to very frugal living.

well said

 

[sdcfia]

I never understood this in my younger days either. Now that I'm almost as old as dirt, I understand.

Waltz didn't know how long he would live. He knew he would have to live out his natural life on the gold under his bed, since he was too old to go back to the mine. When you get old you'll discover the fear of running out of money leads to very frugal living.

That argument doesn't add up for me. If Waltz knew he had to live out his life on the box of ore he had under his bed, then it sounds to me that he must have known there was no more ore to be had from the "richest mine in the world." This then smells more like "accumulated cache" than "worked mine ore." Applying Occam's Razor to Waltz ("the simplest option is usually the correct answer), I'd say he already had the box of ore with him when he moved to Phoenix. Then your "frugal living" scenario makes perfect sense.

I'm probably older than you are and we all hope our retirement funds outlive us. I'll guarantee you one thing - even if I was too stove up to work "the richest mine in the world" anymore, I'd damn sure figure out how to sell/partner it if I thought I was going broke. What's he got to lose at that point?

 

[Dr. Syn]

Well when it comes down to it, there was only one man that knew the facts, and he took most, if not all of them, with him to the grave.

As for how he lived, that was his choice, just because he may or may not been wealthy didn't mean he wanted to live like he was.
Heck, act rich and someone is going to come looking for what you got, and how you got it.

 

[azdave35]

That argument doesn't add up for me. If Waltz knew he had to live out his life on the box of ore he had under his bed, then it sounds to me that he must have known there was no more ore to be had from the "richest mine in the world." This then smells more like "accumulated cache" than "worked mine ore." Applying Occam's Razor to Waltz ("the simplest option is usually the correct answer), I'd say he already had the box of ore with him when he moved to Phoenix. Then your "frugal living" scenario makes perfect sense.

I'm probably older than you are and we all hope our retirement funds outlive us. I'll guarantee you one thing - even if I was too stove up to work "the richest mine in the world" anymore, I'd damn sure figure out how to sell/partner it if I thought I was going broke. What's he got to lose at that point?

i dont think most of you realize what it means to be in bad health....it means you would not be able to make it to the mine PERIOD...no if's and's or but's...i have alot of health problems and i know i couldn't make a trip into the mountains..and if waltz was like most miners he would not have trusted anyone enough to send them into the mountains after his gold...and he was near 80 years old...in 1890 that 48 lbs of rich ore would be all he needed for the rest of his life

 

[deducer]

I'm probably older than you are and we all hope our retirement funds outlive us. I'll guarantee you one thing - even if I was too stove up to work "the richest mine in the world" anymore, I'd damn sure figure out how to sell/partner it if I thought I was going broke. What's he got to lose at that point?

i dont think most of you realize what it means to be in bad health....it means you would not be able to make it to the mine PERIOD...no if's and's or but's...i have alot of health problems and i know i couldn't make a trip into the mountains..and if waltz was like most miners he would not have trusted anyone enough to send them into the mountains after his gold...and he was near 80 years old...in 1890 that 48 lbs of rich ore would be all he needed for the rest of his life

Good points, but I'd like to point out that Waltz did try to partner up or tried to trust, first Rhiney, then Julia, and and then possibly Dick Holmes as a last resort. If he were healthy and had time, I'm not sure he would have resorted to confiding in those people. My suspicions are that he didn't realize that he was much sicker than he thought, and that death was right at his doorstep.

 

[audigger53]

Good points, but I'd like to point out that Waltz did try to partner up or tried to trust, first Rhiney, then Julia, and and then possibly Dick Holmes as a last resort. If he were healthy and had time, I'm not sure he would have resorted to confiding in those people. My suspicions are that he didn't realize that he was much sicker than he thought, and that death was right at his doorstep.

You forgot Jacob Weisner as a partner, the one he buried 3 months after the "Indians" killed him and he waited that long because he was afraid of the Indians. I don't think the others were as "Partners", so much as he wanted someone to have his find as he knew he was dying. Of course that is just my 2 cents on it.

 

[audigger53]

Well when it comes down to it, there was only one man that knew the facts, and he took most, if not all of them, with him to the grave.

As for how he lived, that was his choice, just because he may or may not been wealthy didn't mean he wanted to live like he was.
Heck, act rich and someone is going to come looking for what you got, and how you got it.

They did that with him anyway. Many times people tried to follow him before he and his house got flooded out.

 

[deducer]

You forgot Jacob Weisner as a partner, the one he buried 3 months after the "Indians" killed him and he waited that long because he was afraid of the Indians. I don't think the others were as "Partners", so much as he wanted someone to have his find as he knew he was dying. Of course that is just my 2 cents on it.

I didn't forget about Weisner. We are talking about Waltz "bequeathing" the mine, i.e., passing it on to someone, rather than partnering with someone to dig it out.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Title of this thread: Waltz and known facts, not stories.

Reading books is fine and gives you some idea of what someone else thinks, but it will never give you anything other than 3rd or 4th hand information at best.

To form solid opinions you have to get down to the first hand information or the information that was directly passed on to someone by an original participant.

One good example is several years back Roger Newkirk and I were in downtown Phoenix talking about Waltz and people related to the Dutchman story.

Roger was driving around and we happened into the old part of Phoenix known as the Coronado edition east of downtown. The section where Dick Holmes lived after Jacob Waltz died.
Roger and I drove past the old Holmes house and turned onto a street a block or two away and I recognized the house of Joe Porterie's grandson. Joe Porterie was the man who did the assay on Waltz's gold ore.

I saw Porterie's daughter's car in the driveway and said to Roger, lets stop and see if the old man would talk to us about his grandfather and the Waltz story.
Roger and I walked up to the house, knocked on the door and were welcomed inside. For the next couple hours we sat and talked with Joe Porterie's grandson who was more than happy to tell us everything he knew and remembered as a young man growing up in Phoenix about his famous grandfather and Jacob Waltz.

We took notes that day and were welcomed back later to get the grandson on tape. We also were invited to see his grandfather's record books from his assay business and the equipment that survived from his assay office. The assay records were written in French as Porterie was born and raised in France.

It was an enlightening day for Roger and I to say the least, and did we get some good SOLID information that day ? You better believe we did.

The point is, If you are really and truly serious about getting to the bottom of the Lost Dutchman legend you can't just rely on somebody else's 4th hand book or somebody's theory of how they THINK things were.
You have to go after the source whenever and wherever you find them. That is the only way you will ever form solid opinions.

For almost a half a century I have been talking with the old pioneer families and getting their stories. I have almost 300 interviews, photographs and tapes of old timers and people who were in a position to know the straight of the story.
Sadly most have passed on. Some of the last great interviews I had were with George Holmes (son of Dick Holmes), Maude Bailey (daughter of Matt Cavaness), Alma Alkire, (grandaughter of Frank Alkire), Urban Porterie (grandson of Joe Porterie), Hilda Kramer (daughter of Caroline and Alexander Steinegger and the niece of Julia and Emil Thomas), John Spangler (nephew of Jim Bark), Paul Pettit (gr-grandson of Gottfreid Petrasch).

If you want known facts and not just stories, these are the people you should have been talking to.

Best,

Matthew

 

[musician]

Great point. Even if a source changes soon after some years to be not first hand anymore. At least in music the first hand information about a composer is from his time, after 10 to 20 years it started to be another time without the same deep understanding.

@audigger If you want facts instead of stories, you should keep to that on both sides of the Waltz-story. Pro mine and contra mine.

But regarding the frugal life. It was not rare in the Germany of his times to be content with the things you really need. He had a home, some land, enough to eat, enough gold for the rest of his life, if the amount of found gold ore and the money is true, he gave to Julia Thomas before.
Should he build a big house? A man over 60, without a family, who lived his whole life this way, may not have the wish for another life. He may not recognize the need for better clothes and there was nobody to tell him. He paid no taxes, but that only means he didn't tell about gold from mining, not that he didn't have any.

One fact: The first hand sources, the people around him, believed that he had a mine. And he had no reason for lying to the person who cared for him, Julia Thomas.

 

[deducer]

Great point. Even if a source changes soon after some years to be not first hand anymore. At least in music the first hand information about a composer is from his time, after 10 to 20 years it started to be another time without the same deep understanding.

@audigger If you want facts instead of stories, you should keep to that on both sides of the Waltz-story. Pro mine and contra mine.

But regarding the frugal life. It was not rare in the Germany of his times to be content with the things you really need. He had a home, some land, enough to eat, enough gold for the rest of his life, if the amount of found gold ore and the money is true, he gave to Julia Thomas before.
Should he build a big house? A man over 60, without a family, who lived his whole life this way, may not have the wish for another life. He may not recognize the need for better clothes and there was nobody to tell him. He paid no taxes, but that only means he didn't tell about gold from mining, not that he didn't have any.

One fact: The first hand sources, the people around him, believed that he had a mine. And he had no reason for lying to the person who cared for him, Julia Thomas.

Are you the same "Musician" who used to posted on the other forum? (I can't name it here)

 

[Matthew Roberts]

musician posted this : @audigger If you want facts instead of stories, you should keep to that on both sides of the Waltz-story. Pro mine and contra mine.

An excellent point musician.

In arguing against the mine I'm reading a lot of ; Waltz didn't have a mine because with a mine he woulda done this, or that, or another thing. Or, thats my 2 cents worth on it.

If it's facts you want about there being a mine, it should be facts about there not being a mine also. Not opinion, or what you THINK would have or should have happened.

Best,

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

musician posted this : @audigger If you want facts instead of stories, you should keep to that on both sides of the Waltz-story. Pro mine and contra mine.

An excellent point musician.

In arguing against the mine I'm reading a lot of ; Waltz didn't have a mine because with a mine he woulda done this, or that, or another thing. Or, thats my 2 cents worth on it.

If it's facts you want about there being a mine, it should be facts about there not being a mine also. Not opinion, or what you THINK would have or should have happened.

Best,

Matthew

most of the people that think waltz never had a mine...have never even set foot in the mountains

 

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan64 wrote:

With all things "Dutchman," at some point you either have to believe things or not based on whatever you personally think is good enough evidence - that evidence is different for everyone as evidenced by years and years of these same discussions and arguments over and over again without changing hardly anyone's minds.

Thank you Cubfan.

Cubfan has probably posted the most profoundly true statement posted here in many years.

Everyone has to rely on themselves to decide what they believe and don't believe. They need to do their own research, talk to the old timers themselves and get out in the mountains and hike the trails and back country running down the clues.
Books are great but if you are sitting around waiting for someone to give you the inside information or for someone to find the mine for you, you need another hobby.
The old saying, " I don't believe anything I read and only half of what I see", is a good start for searching for the LDM.
Do your own research, do your own hiking, don't whine because you don't know if an assay report is authentic or not.
If it's all too much for you, there's always knitting or oragami you could try.

Matthew

Thank you for the compliment - not sure it's deserved but I appreciate it. I read what sdcfia had to say shortly after your post and I understood his comments as well. I guess this is how I look at it...

Early on when I was first learning all I could about the LDM and stories about the Superstitions Mountains it was easy to get caught up in the legends. I lived and still live so far away from the Superstitions that the best I could do was get involved in debates about even the most minute details that would really have nothing to do with ever being able to find the source of gold. Eventually however I was able to spend some time out there, meet other people who've actually searched the mountains and my relationship with the legend evolved.

I remember one time on Jim Hatt's old forum that I said something about "IF" the mine exists and Jim sent me an e-mail ripping into me. At the time I was still in the early stages of interest and research, so I felt I wasn't convinced Waltz even HAD a gold mine. Some people have said Jim Hatt was rough around the edges - I only knew him for a short time but I found him to be rough ALL OVER, not just around the edges, but he made me think about things which was good.

As I said, I evolved and finally reached a point where I came to my own conclusions about things. Now that I've reached there, it's so much harder to get caught up in all the little side discussions and I've grown tired of arguing with people. Where it still gets difficult to read and not respond is when I see discussions where some of the participants state things as fact that are simply not correct and unfortunately I just don't have the energy to try to correct them anymore.

Anyways, I'm rambling now but hopefully that explains why I'm just not very active here anymore. I still check in from time to time but the little nuggets that interest me are becoming fewer and further between.

 

[musician]

Are you the same "Musician" who used to posted on the other forum? (I can't name it here)

Yes, the same. More reading than posting, because I live far away.