Wagoner's Lost Ledge

[markmar]

Question mark symbol on the Wagoner's map. A GE image of it for the interested. It's about 30 feet large, few yards from the mine and arrastra.

 

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[cuzimloony]

I know that some prospectors use Google Earth to look for outcroppings/ledges, sometimes with success. I'll use the Whiskey Spring area as an example for the geologic formations that I think might attract the eyes of a prospector searching for potential sites for on-the-ground explorations. I'm not saying here that I see bona fide outcroppings/ledges in the images provided below. I only see possible folding and, maybe, faulting that has formed raised ridges in the terrain, and where outcroppings/ledges could be exposed. I would think that those kind of places would be given primary importance in planning any exploratory trips. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In the images below, I see possible folding centered between the red lines.

View attachment 2182478

View attachment 2182479

The east/westish stretch of trail in between Miners Needle and Whisky Spring has a bunch of outcroppings, of the type you pictured above I think, especially on the north side that are accessable. There are also a lot of ravines and hillsides that are quite accessable.
And if this is the military trail........
Edit, in my map below, that is not Weavers Needle. I only took a pic of Weavers Needle from that spot.

 

[markmar]

I know that some prospectors use Google Earth to look for outcroppings/ledges, sometimes with success. I'll use the Whiskey Spring area as an example for the geologic formations that I think might attract the eyes of a prospector searching for potential sites for on-the-ground explorations. I'm not saying here that I see bona fide outcroppings/ledges in the images provided below. I only see possible folding and, maybe, faulting that has formed raised ridges in the terrain, and where outcroppings/ledges could be exposed. I would think that those kind of places would be given primary importance in planning any exploratory trips. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In the images below, I see possible folding centered between the red lines.

View attachment 2182478

View attachment 2182479

Skyhawk

Every mountain range has a different building process and different minerals in composition, so each has an unique pattern and is required an unique plan of work in finding their minerals.
Spaniards and later Mexicans, who were skilled in finding precious metals, once they would find the first deposit in a specific mountain, then they would know where to look for the other sources. So, they would decipher the mountain's pattern, as the way it has deposited its components at its creation.
So IMHO, this applies and for the Superstitions. Here is a drawing of the Superstitions gold deposits pattern:

- with black is a main canyon
- with blue are small ravines ( about 100-300 yards ) which are connected to the main canyon. In these small ravines, the gold will be find on the apex of the hills between the ravines and almost at their upper end. If a hill on which has been found gold, has a small draw/ravine ( the red line ), then in that draw is 90% possible to be find another gold outcropping.
- with green is a big ravine ( 1/2 mile- 3/4 mile ) which is connected to the main canyon. In the big ravines the gold will be find only in a secondary small ravine ( the red line ) which will be connected to it. Usually the gold would be at the sides of this secondary ravine and almost in the middle of its length.

What I presented here it's not a work of imagination but a result of many years dedicated in this domain. This is for you and my friends who still reading my posts and respect me in some way.

 

[cuzimloony]

Skyhawk

Every mountain range has a different building process and different minerals in composition, so each has an unique pattern and is required an unique plan of work in finding their minerals.
Spaniards and later Mexicans, who were skilled in finding precious metals, once they would find the first deposit in a specific mountain, then they would know where to look for the other sources. So, they would decipher the mountain's pattern, as the way it has deposited its components at its creation.
So IMHO, this applies and for the Superstitions. Here is a drawing of the Superstitions gold deposits pattern:

- with black is a main canyon
- with blue are small ravines ( about 100-300 yards ) which are connected to the main canyon. In these small ravines, the gold will be find on the apex of the hills between the ravines and almost at their upper end. If a hill on which has been found gold, has a small draw/ravine ( the red line ), then in that draw is 90% possible to be find another gold outcropping.
- with green is a big ravine ( 1/2 mile- 3/4 mile ) which is connected to the main canyon. In the big ravines the gold will be find only in a secondary small ravine ( the red line ) which will be connected to it. Usually the gold would be at the sides of this secondary ravine and almost in the middle of its length.

What I presented here it's not a work of imagination but a result of many years dedicated in this domain. This is for you and my friends who still reading my posts and respect me in some way.

I pay attention marcmar. I only ignore blurry, blackened and shrunken GE pics with lines drawn on top, because that aint helping anyone. Otherwise, I find what you say to be educational, and sometimes even entertaining. Please keep it up

 

[cuzimloony]

I hate censorship.....especially self-censorship one is guilted into. I also like preserving history so.... here is my internal debate and I am soliciting opinions.
Yesterday I posted some pictures here on this thread. These pictures were directly related to the Wagoner. The pictures were of the stage line stop along Hewitt/Whitlow canyon area that Wagoner took (He didn't take the pictures. He took the stage. I took the pictures I found it. It exists and it's fairly well preserved. The jail is there. The mill. The "store house." Across the way are the remains of an old post office, etc.. They were good pictures and it was a good treasure hunting find.
I also posted these pictures on a very popular superstition mountain facebook page. You would all know the people who run the page. They are very very popular in the dutchman world. One person, who shall remain unnamed but let's just say he has recorded much video for the whole world to see, sent me a message on facebook giving me the "you found such and such.... WE DON"T TALK ABOUT THIS PLACE." Emphasis mine. He did not outright ask me to remove it, but I did out of respect, both here on this thread and on facebook.

However, the more I think about it, the more I am upset with myself for having been guilted into self-censorship. I like to see myself as a "different generation." I don't not like it when thunters horde info, die, and leave us at square one. I want to SOLVE treasure legends, not perpetuate them. That said...... the implication was they don't talk about this place because they want to "preserve" it, which my sentimental side understands, completely.

Here's the odd thing..... You can find this place talked about in countless books, by countless authors. Tom Kollenborn wrote about this place. Jack San Felice wrote about this place. Barry Storm wrote about this place. Greg Davis wrote about this place. Newspaper reporters in Phoenix (name escapes me..McSomething) wrote about this place. Anyone who wrote about the Wagoner story, wrote about this place. But when I posted a picture, I got the "WE DON"T TALK ABOUT THIS PLACE" line, which is clearly not true, judging by the amount of ink left on pages concerning this place. Maybe he spelled "I haven't made a video of this place yet" wrong. I don't know. Why does this place need to be "preserved" over the thousands of other places out here we CAN talk about?
Adamsville? Sure no problem. Rocks cabins in the wilderness? Sure no problem. Petrasch's spot on Tortilla Mtn? Sure, no problem. Arrastras along Boulder Canyon? Sure, no problem. The stage line at Whitlow? Wait a minute buddy...... now you're crossing the line.

This place was FULL of footprints and I know for a fact has been scoured by other people metal detecting. Funny enough, when I posted this on facebook, many other people came out of the woodwork with THEIR pictures of the same place. It's not unknown.

There is my dilemma.
I can ignore the wishes of old generation dutch hunters, continue posting about my progress and crowd sourcing the search, possibly making enemies of people who were never my friends anyway, being the "new generation" of thunter who doesn't hide info from others. OR, I can self-censor, going against my own principles trying to avoid pissing off the old generation (who I only see online anyway).
Any thoughts or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

ps. Some more info: Hermann Petrasch's cabin is not far from here and it is not preserved at all. There are only scraps of rusted metal on the ground and a broken up foundation. Maybe the condition of Hermann's cabin is the impetus for wanting to "preserve" this place? Not sure..... but thought it would be good info for anyone looking to comment here . Thanks again!

 

[releventchair]

I hate censorship.....especially self-censorship one is guilted into. I also like preserving history so.... here is my internal debate and I am soliciting opinions.
Yesterday I posted some pictures here on this thread. These pictures were directly related to the Wagoner. The pictures were of the stage line stop along Hewitt/Whitlow canyon area that Wagoner took. I found it. It exists and it's fairly well preserved. The jail is there. The mill. The "store house." Across the way are the remains of an old post office, etc.. They were good pictures and it was a good treasure hunting find.
I also posted these pictures on a very popular superstition mountain facebook page. You would all know the people who run the page. They are very very popular in the dutchman world. One person, who shall remain unnamed but let's just say he has recorded thousands of hours of videos for the whole world to see, sent me a message on facebook giving me the "you found such and such.... WE DON"T TALK ABOUT THIS PLACE." Emphasis mine. He did not outright ask me to remove it, but I did out of respect, both here on this thread and on facebook.

However, the more I think about it, the more I am upset with myself for having been guilted into self-censorship. I am a "different generation." I don't not like it when thunters horde info, die, and leave us at square one. I want to SOLVE treasure legends, not perpetuate them. That said...... the implication was they don't talk about this place because they want to "preserve" it, which my sentimental side understands, completely.
Here's the odd thing..... You can find this place talked about in countless books, by countless authors. Tom Kollenborn wrote about this place. Jack San Felice wrote about this place. Barry Storm wrote about this place. Greg Davis wrote about this place. Newspaper reporters in Phoenix (name escapes me..McSomething) wrote about this place. Anyone who wrote about the Wagoner story, wrote about this place. But when I posted a picture, I got the "WE DON"T TALK ABOUT THIS PLACE" line, which is clearly not true, judging by the amount of ink left on pages concerning this place. Maybe he spelled "I haven't made a video of this place yet" wrong. I don't know. Why does this place need to be "preserved" over the thousands of other places out here we CAN talk about? This place was FULL of footprints and I know for a fact has been scoured by other people metal detecting. Funny enough, when I posted this on facebook, many other people came out of the woodwork with THEIR pictures of the same place. It's not unknown.

There is my dilemma.
I can ignore the wishes of old generation dutch hunters, continue posting about my progress and crowd sourcing the search, possibly making enemies of people who were never my friends anyway, being the "new generation" of thunter who doesn't hide info from others. OR, I can self-censor, going against my own principles trying to avoid pissing off the old generation (who I only see online anyway). Does the older generation own this place? Anyway......
Any thoughts or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

ps. Some more info: Hermann Petrasch's cabin is not far from here and it is not preserved at all. There are only scraps of rusted metal on the ground and a broken up foundation. Maybe the condition of Hermann's cabin is the impetus for wanting to "preserve" this place? Not sure..... but thought it would be good info for anyone looking to comment here . Thanks again!

Etiquette among forum posts?
Oh boy.

The why the "we don't mention" if you don't know, then needs explained. And should have been.

Unrelated but related , a forum I frequent has "unmentionables" among trout streams.
Too small to tolerate much traffic without changing the sites too much. Let alone the pressure and effect on the trout.

To someone who fishes such a site advertising it to the world at large on a forum would be cause for.... letting you know "we" don't talk about this.

Bank your work. Your notes. Back them up with more .
Be sure the (that data) torch gets passed to another or more hunters when you aren't hunting anymore if you want to share.
Or declare free desert and you'll post what you will where you can. Or compromise.

I'd be asking why it's off limits vs what your other fisherman has posted prior of a multitude of sites. While guessing it is related to the many human tracks you already observed.

 

[cuzimloony]

Etiquette among forum posts?
Oh boy.

The why the "we don't mention" if you don't know, then needs explained. And should have been.

Unrelated but related , a forum I frequent has "unmentionables" among trout streams.
Too small to tolerate much traffic without changing the sites too much. Let alone the pressure and effect on the trout.

To someone who fishes such a site advertising it to the world at large on a forum would be cause for.... letting you know "we" don't talk about this.

Bank your work. Your notes. Back them up with more .
Be sure the (that data) torch gets passed to another or more hunters when you aren't hunting anymore if you want to share.
Or declare free desert and you'll post what you will where you can. Or compromise.

I'd be asking why it's off limits vs what your other fisherman has posted prior of a multitude of sites. While guessing it is related to the many human tracks you already observed.

Etiquette among forum posts?
Oh boy.

The why the "we don't mention" if you don't know, then needs explained. And should have been.

Unrelated but related , a forum I frequent has "unmentionables" among trout streams.
Too small to tolerate much traffic without changing the sites too much. Let alone the pressure and effect on the trout.

To someone who fishes such a site advertising it to the world at large on a forum would be cause for.... letting you know "we" don't talk about this.

Bank your work. Your notes. Back them up with more .
Be sure the (that data) torch gets passed to another or more hunters when you aren't hunting anymore if you want to share.
Or declare free desert and you'll post what you will where you can. Or compromise.

I'd be asking why it's off limits vs what your other fisherman has posted prior of a multitude of sites. While guessing it is related to the many human tracks you already observed.

Ha! I didn't think of all that..... lol. Thank you.
Odd though.... it has been walked for decades. I saw pictures from the 80's (I think) of people there detecting around.
I did ask why, which was of course ignored
I appreciate the perspective.

 

[markmar]

I hate censorship.....especially self-censorship one is guilted into. I also like preserving history so.... here is my internal debate and I am soliciting opinions.
Yesterday I posted some pictures here on this thread. These pictures were directly related to the Wagoner. The pictures were of the stage line stop along Hewitt/Whitlow canyon area that Wagoner took (He didn't take the pictures. He took the train. I took the pictures I found it. It exists and it's fairly well preserved. The jail is there. The mill. The "store house." Across the way are the remains of an old post office, etc.. They were good pictures and it was a good treasure hunting find.
I also posted these pictures on a very popular superstition mountain facebook page. You would all know the people who run the page. They are very very popular in the dutchman world. One person, who shall remain unnamed but let's just say he has recorded much video for the whole world to see, sent me a message on facebook giving me the "you found such and such.... WE DON"T TALK ABOUT THIS PLACE." Emphasis mine. He did not outright ask me to remove it, but I did out of respect, both here on this thread and on facebook.

However, the more I think about it, the more I am upset with myself for having been guilted into self-censorship. I like to see myself as a "different generation." I don't not like it when thunters horde info, die, and leave us at square one. I want to SOLVE treasure legends, not perpetuate them. That said...... the implication was they don't talk about this place because they want to "preserve" it, which my sentimental side understands, completely.

Here's the odd thing..... You can find this place talked about in countless books, by countless authors. Tom Kollenborn wrote about this place. Jack San Felice wrote about this place. Barry Storm wrote about this place. Greg Davis wrote about this place. Newspaper reporters in Phoenix (name escapes me..McSomething) wrote about this place. Anyone who wrote about the Wagoner story, wrote about this place. But when I posted a picture, I got the "WE DON"T TALK ABOUT THIS PLACE" line, which is clearly not true, judging by the amount of ink left on pages concerning this place. Maybe he spelled "I haven't made a video of this place yet" wrong. I don't know. Why does this place need to be "preserved" over the thousands of other places out here we CAN talk about?
Adamsville? Sure no problem. Rocks cabins in the wilderness? Sure no problem. Petrasch's spot on Tortilla Mtn? Sure, no problem. Arrastras along Boulder Canyon? Sure, no problem. The stage line at Whitlow? Wait a minute buddy...... now you're crossing the line.

This place was FULL of footprints and I know for a fact has been scoured by other people metal detecting. Funny enough, when I posted this on facebook, many other people came out of the woodwork with THEIR pictures of the same place. It's not unknown.

There is my dilemma.
I can ignore the wishes of old generation dutch hunters, continue posting about my progress and crowd sourcing the search, possibly making enemies of people who were never my friends anyway, being the "new generation" of thunter who doesn't hide info from others. OR, I can self-censor, going against my own principles trying to avoid pissing off the old generation (who I only see online anyway).
Any thoughts or opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

ps. Some more info: Hermann Petrasch's cabin is not far from here and it is not preserved at all. There are only scraps of rusted metal on the ground and a broken up foundation. Maybe the condition of Hermann's cabin is the impetus for wanting to "preserve" this place? Not sure..... but thought it would be good info for anyone looking to comment here . Thanks again!

IMHO, they did this to you because they could. If I would been posted myself those pics, then mortuary silence. It's because one or many in their camp is/are your friends, and considering their self estimated high level of knowledge in the treasure hunting domain, they believe can manipulate you in the way they consider is better for their image.
Seems you have not yet rights to show something to the others without their agreement. You will be their greenhorn as long as they will consider enough. Stay away from these toxic, lazy and self promoted people. They never have a real job and have no friends when it comes to defend their interests/incomes, and you will understand this very soon.
Greeks use to say: " Dance alone and jump as much you want ".

 

[cuzimloony]

IMHO, they did this to you because they could. If I would been posted myself those pics, then mortuary silence. It's because one or many in their camp is/are your friends, and considering their self estimated high level of knowledge in the treasure hunting domain, they believe can manipulate you in the way they consider is better for their image.
Seems you have not yet rights to show something to the others without their agreement. You will be their greenhorn as long as they will consider enough. Stay away from these toxic, lazy and self promoted people. They never have a real job and have no friends when it comes to defend their interests/incomes, and you will understand this very soon.
Greeks use to say: " Dance alone and jump as much you want ".

Sounds good, but Im not buying it. I know who you're talking about. I hunt alone and I would say only one of them I would consider a friend. The rest of them only hung out with me for 1 winter (and now talk to me as if they never did....admittedly, I was veeeeeery new and inexperienced out west and so, easily forgettable) and then combined maybe 7 or 8 trips total, and the person I'm referring to in this incident is not one of them. I go alone and have for the last 4 years (with minor exceptions if a non-treasure hunting friend tags along) and although I AM a greenhorn (you're right about that part), I ain't nobody's b*tch, as the Americans say.
I self-censored. I think the person concerned was even willing to let it stay up on the page. He wasn't going to take it down. He didn't censor me. I self-censored.

But to relevantchair's addition to the thread, I see what he is saying. "Too many fish in the pond" as we Americans say, makes much more sense....

I guess Im on to something.......