Video - Adventures in the Superstition Wilderness

[UncleMatt]

I see your point Ryan, but notice how no such big timbers appear to have been used in the cliff dwellings you mention? Most of that type of Native-American construction employed mud and stone, as they lacked the steel tools to work woods as easily as the white man did. But if they had it would be likely that traces of mud would still be on the timbers in the photos, and I see none of that.
And if wood was needed near a new mine it would have been harvested near that new mine, just out of convenience. It would take a lot more work to remove timbers already shoring up a mine and haul them to a new location than simply cutting down trees near the new mine you want to shore up.

But of course all of this is conjecture and guess work on our part. I would still like to see what dates a tree ring study might turn up from those mine timbers, should the opportunity to do so ever present itself.

 

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[RG1976]

I see your point Ryan, but notice how no such big timbers appear to have been used in the cliff dwellings you mention? Most of that type of Native-American construction employed mud and stone, as they lacked the steel tools to work woods as easily as the white man did. But if they had it would be likely that traces of mud would still be on the timbers in the photos, and I see none of that.
And if wood was needed near a new mine it would have been harvested near that new mine, just out of convenience. It would take a lot more work to remove timbers already shoring up a mine and haul them to a new location than simply cutting down trees near the new mine you want to shore up.

But of course all of this is conjecture and guess work on our part. I would still like to see what dates a tree ring study might turn up from those mine timbers, should the opportunity to do so ever present itself.

I totally agree with you that it would be easier to just cut down new timber - especially in an area like the pit mine where trees are EVERYWHERE!

I don't think for a second that the miners took apart the cliff dwellings (AKA - 2 room house, Caverna con Casa - anyone?) to take their wood. But as a matter of speaking - there is a lot of wood in those old native cliff houses....go take a look at the photo again =) There is one over the door way, then on the right upper middle you will see another large piece of wood.



I'd def. like to see how the timbers in the mine would date. If they are from 1950 - well...thats one thing. If they are from the 1700-1800's - thats another.

Any idea of why the timbers are burnt? This is my uneducated guess - but to me it would seem possible someone hung a lantern from them? What I am talking about is at 13:23 in my video.

 

[UncleMatt]

Could be a lantern, could be a fire caused by someone sticking a lit cigarette in a crack to hold it while they worked, and then forgot about it. Could be a lot of things.

 

[releventchair]

A sharpened stick can be hardened by roasting over a fire, but charring it is too much. Someone already mentioned creosote leaves wood darkened .A charred look from a distance.

 

[azdave35]

I see your point Ryan, but notice how no such big timbers appear to have been used in the cliff dwellings you mention? Most of that type of Native-American construction employed mud and stone, as they lacked the steel tools to work woods as easily as the white man did. But if they had it would be likely that traces of mud would still be on the timbers in the photos, and I see none of that.
And if wood was needed near a new mine it would have been harvested near that new mine, just out of convenience. It would take a lot more work to remove timbers already shoring up a mine and haul them to a new location than simply cutting down trees near the new mine you want to shore up.

But of course all of this is conjecture and guess work on our part. I would still like to see what dates a tree ring study might turn up from those mine timbers, should the opportunity to do so ever present itself.

i'm not sure why you guys are obsessing over the lumber in a mine....even if the wood in the mine dates to the time of the dutchman that means nothing...if you'd take the time to explore that area you'd find hundreds of old mines in the area and all were worked in the same time frame the dutchman would have been there...they were also probably worked in the 1700's...early 1800's and 1900's.....from aproxamatley 1700 to mid 1800's there were a few countries over here mining..(spain france portugal and mexico)....after we ran them out of here whitey started working the same mines...i know of a number of mines in the same area i am working that were mined by the spanish and later by mexicans....also alot of shoring was salvaged from abandoned mines and put in other mines ..

 

[UncleMatt]

We are curious about the wood because it is one of the few ways you could get an idea when that mine was created. But do please tell us what method you would use to find that out. I'm sure we would all love to hear it.

 

[UncleMatt]

Okay, lets hear how you two would go about collecting data that would point to a conclusion about when this mine was dug. All I have proposed is a way to find out facts, I haven't made a single claim otherwise about anything. If you truly want to "fact check", exactly what facts are you trying to verify?

 

[RG1976]

Bill - many members here have been to the pit mine. If my "source" gave me inaccurate information - I would have been called out already.

Further - I've met with this gentleman and have photos of him standing at the location. I have 100% trust in what I've seen.

If you don't - that's okay! Go film a video and prove us all wrong. It's not hard. You only need a cell phone that does video - just like what I do

 

[gollum]

Hey Paul!

Good to hear from you!

What you are proposing is criminal behavior and can equate to someone robbing a bank and has yet to get caught.....which is still my point....neither heroic or admirable.

I suppose, from the chair that I type this, people that are "top of the class" as Joe said - do things on the "up & up"

yea?

I wouldn't be too sure about that! HAHAHA

Put yourself in their shoes for a moment;

Through whatever means it took, they found the single richest strike (known, but only to them). First thing you do, is get a GOOOOOOOD Attorney to dissect laws regarding working a mine in the SWA. If the laws are unbendable and no other course of legal action can be found, THEN what do you do? Do you report the find, and watch either the Feds or the State of Az swoop in and remove everything? You get nothing but bragging rights and maybe a book and a NatGeo Special? You may also earn some money from Speaking Engagements. A few tens of thousands from TV, maybe several thousand from a book? Another ten thousand or so from speaking engagements?

or.......

Do you exert all your wiles, call in your trusted friends that know and understand hardrock mining? IF it was the LDM, and Waltz's Description was correct (18" vein of about 30% visible gold), you dig another TWO HUNDRED AND TEN FEET (210ft) of this picture rock (with varying percentages of gold). How much could you make from 210' deep x 18" wide x ?? thick at 7,200 ounces per ton? How many tons do you get from that vein? Even if its not 30% visible gold all the way down, or lets say Waltz's Ore was hand cobbled. Lets say the vein ran 5% visible gold in the ground. That's still 1,200 ounces to the ton. How many tons of ore do you get from that vein (18" wide x 210' deep x ?? thick)?

Do you settle for AROUND $100K, and watch the Feds and State grab everything, or do you risk losing everything (and maybe going to jail) and make several people millionaires?

ONE HELLUVA PREDICAMENT, HUH? I can't honestly say that I wouldn't have done the exact same thing they did. $100k for you, or everybody you know gets wealthy?

I mean granted, you hope your Zonko5000 Super Duper Lawyer can find a loophole in some vague, not too well thought out passage in the Az Wilderness Act that would allow you to legally get wealthy from your find, but if he can't? What do you do? What do you do?

Mike

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Bill you are implying Ryan is lying, that is rule violation, your post was deleted for that reason, please stop breaking our rules.

 

[gollum]

Okay, lets hear how you two would go about collecting data that would point to a conclusion about when this mine was dug. All I have proposed is a way to find out facts, I haven't made a single claim otherwise about anything. If you truly want to "fact check", exactly what facts are you trying to verify?

Maybe the manufacture date stamped into that pulley or the "USE BY" date on the old 2 liter coke bottle? HAHAHA

Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

That stuff can be dated fairly easily, and would only indicate when more recent activity was occurring. I was more curious about figuring out how to date the mine itself. As others have pointed out, it may be very old, especially the front part of it. I thought the timbers we saw in the photos might give some clues about that.

 

[RG1976]

For me - that's easy Mike. Option 1. Report it to the proper channels.

The money i would make doing a heist isn't worth the anxiety getting caught / jail time.

But that's just me!

 

[azdave35]

We are curious about the wood because it is one of the few ways you could get an idea when that mine was created. But do please tell us what method you would use to find that out. I'm sure we would all love to hear it.

matt..i wouldnt waste my time trying to figure out how old shoring in a mine is...like i said..even if you do date it..it means nothing....i know some guys that did salvage timbers from another mine to put in their mine...i dont think you realize how expensive shoring timbers are...or 120 years ago how much work it was to cut trees and shore up a mine with it...alot of mines got stripped of shoring for other mines...no offense but i think your beating a dead horse here...

 

[azdave35]

Okay, lets hear how you two would go about collecting data that would point to a conclusion about when this mine was dug. All I have proposed is a way to find out facts, I haven't made a single claim otherwise about anything. If you truly want to "fact check", exactly what facts are you trying to verify?

matt...i dont need to verify anything...ive already heard and seen enough evidence to convince me a long time ago

 

[Cubfan64]

Hey Paul!

Good to hear from you!

What you are proposing is criminal behavior and can equate to someone robbing a bank and has yet to get caught.....which is still my point....neither heroic or admirable.

I suppose, from the chair that I type this, people that are "top of the class" as Joe said - do things on the "up & up"

yea?

Ryan,

My reply was directed only to the statement I highlighted about being an authority on a subject - nothing at all about criminal behavior. You'll get no argument from me that someone doing something criminal is not heroic or admirable.

 

[Old]

Hi Dave,

My interest in the timber is to see if it predates Waltz, (g). And if so, how far back. I'm already convinced it's at least back as far as Waltz' time.
I know dating it wouldn't be proof positive it was first installed there but it would the beginnings of putting some weighted circumstantial evidence to it. It may not help all that much in the evidence trail, but it sure won't hurt anything either.

Hitindahed........On the type of rock question. Help me understand what you mean by schist or a mica variant. Does that mean it is Quartz based with a lot of mica mixed in? If so, that makes a lot of sense. If it means its a whole different type of rock than bull quartz, I'm going to have to scratch my head and think about that.

 

[DiggerGal]

Great video Ryan!!! The scenery, your Narration along with your historical value is captivating.
I was shocked at the pics of the mine and even more thrown off by the PVC. I have no idea if it's the LDM, but if in fact it is, it has been discovered and cleaned out by the looks of it.
It is also clearly obvious by the trash and left over debris left around the area that the Rangers have not been there, don't care to go there, and probably have no interest in the area.
Thank You again for a great video!

 

[gollum]

That stuff can be dated fairly easily, and would only indicate when more recent activity was occurring. I was more curious about figuring out how to date the mine itself. As others have pointed out, it may be very old, especially the front part of it. I thought the timbers we saw in the photos might give some clues about that.

I think maybe you missed the HAHAHA part of my post!

MIke

 

[azdave35]

Hi Dave,

My interest in the timber is to see if it predates Waltz, (g). And if so, how far back. I'm already convinced it's at least back as far as Waltz' time.
I know dating it wouldn't be proof positive it was first installed there but it would the beginnings of putting some weighted circumstantial evidence to it. It may not help all that much in the evidence trail, but it sure won't hurt anything either.

Hitindahed........On the type of rock question. Help me understand what you mean by schist or a mica variant. Does that mean it is Quartz based with a lot of mica mixed in? If so, that makes a lot of sense. If it means its a whole different type of rock than bull quartz, I'm going to have to scratch my head and think about that.

i'm pretty positive waltz didnt put that shoring in the mine....it was already there when he got there ..thats a hell of alot of work for one man...