Video - Adventures in the Superstition Wilderness

[Old]

Mike,

If you can share, what moved your thinking from "NO Way" to "maybe". Was it something verbal or something physical about the site?

If I'm too nosy just tell me. I don't know when I'm stepping on toes. Never have been much of a diplomat.

Lyn

 

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[gollum]

Just relooking at some of the LDM clues. A good many of them don't fit the area at all, but we don't know exactly what is true and what is BS about what Jacob Waltz said to Julia and Rhiney. I have said for many years that I believe some (maybe many) of the LDM Clues that put people around the Weaver's Needle Area may have been made up by locals wanting to keep the tourists out of the area where they thought the LDM was (Peter's Mesa/Tortilla Mountain Area). Notice how most of the clues have nothing to do with that area?

Some of the "Waltz Clues" absolutely fit the Pit Mine Area. Mainly that Waltz could ride in a wagon to "The Board House" and point her and Rhiney to the proper trail to get to the cache, and as we all know, "You can't find my mine without knowing where the cache is, and you can't find the cache without knowing where my mine is." The two main Board Houses were at the Quarter Circle U and Milk Ranches, which are both spitting distance from the Pit Mine, and easy to find from both. Although the area is well known as a silver mining area, we all know that large amounts of gold can be found in many silver seams. Also, that some of the people associated with the Pit Mine claimed (in private) that they thought they found the LDM. That means they didn't find a silver mine! Also, the fact that they dug it from 90 feet in depth to about 300 feet, means they were finding good ore for around 210 feet.

Mike

 

[dog the treasure hunter]

thanks,i enjoyed the videos.

 

[Old]

Survey says.....................

Which rocks look the most like what you see in the tunnel bed? You can pick more than one.

 

[UncleMatt]

Bill, if you know how old they are then you know when they were cut. I don't think you understand how dendrochronology dating works. That method absolutely allows you to determine when a tree was cut down to create timbers with, or any other form of lumber. Thomas Windes who used to work for the FS uses this method to date when structures were made simply by taking sample cores from the wood in the structure, and comparing the tree ring lines to known tree ring databases.

 

[copperpot]

Hey Ryan! Good job!

 

[sgtfda]

Survey says.....................

Which rocks look the most like what you see in the tunnel bed? You can pick more than one.

View attachment 1150880

#1 looks good

 

[UncleMatt]

For anyone wishing to learn about the realities of the science of dendrochronology:

Dendrochronology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many other sources of information about it are available with a simple Google search...

 

[RG1976]

A new version of the video was just put up - and the initial video removed. Fixed a couple of audio and photo sync issues.


make sure to keep the poll going.

Right now we have 5 saying YES this is the LDM and 4 saying NO - this is NOT the LDM.

 

[RG1976]

For anyone wishing to learn about the realities of the science of dendrochronology:

Dendrochronology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many other sources of information about it are available with a simple Google search...

I really like this idea! What are the rules / laws that would pertain to taking a piece of wood / timber from a mine?

Is that something that could be considered part of the "antiquities act"?

Also - did anyone notice that a few sections of the timber had been burned?

 

[Hitndahed]

Survey says.....................

Which rocks look the most like what you see in the tunnel bed? You can pick more than one.

View attachment 1150880

=====================================
Without going back to watch that part again ,,,
I am going to say number 4.

Hit

 

[deducer]

I really like this idea! What are the rules / laws that would pertain to taking a piece of wood / timber from a mine?

Is that something that could be considered part of the "antiquities act"?

Also - did anyone notice that a few sections of the timber had been burned?

If what you're taking is no larger than a "grab sample" then my guess is that you should be fine.

Your biggest problem, however, is that while dendrochronology will tell you the age of the timber, it won't tell you when it was used or how old the structure that it came from, is.

A lot of miners re-used or reconstituted old timber, as that saved them the labor of cutting down and shaping new ones.

 

[RG1976]

Good point, deducer

 

[cactusjumper]

Ryan,

Just wanted to say that we thought your video was very well done, considering it was done with a cell phone.

As to feeling insulted by the series that fueled your video, I did not personally feel tricked by the fabricated content. Carolyn and I watched the whole series and took none of it as "historical". Wayne and Frank are both good friends of ours and I applauded their efforts to make the whole thing......interesting.

There are many modern-day true stories that would make for good/interesting films. The thirteen men who searched over 90 days to help Harry LaFrance relocate his cave of gold bars is my own favorite. My Uncle Chuck Ribaudo was one of those men, and he held one of the gold bars in his hands.

That gold bar, and the story that went with it, was a tremendous spur to the men who joined the search. I searched up until 2004 for that cave. I believe that cave exists and is now empty. I also believe that empty cave is shown on the Stone Maps, as well as other caves and mines.

Many legends concerning the Superstition Mountains intertwine with others. Having been at this for over fifty years, I think I have a unique perspective on how so many of the stories come together. Others have similar experiences and even more personal stories to share. IMHO, Tom Kollenborn is at the top of the class along with Clay Worst, Bob Corbin and Greg Davis.

Anything man made over fifty years old, I believe, comes under the Antiquities Act. If that wood is burned, It could be easier to date.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

If what you're taking is no larger than a "grab sample" then my guess is that you should be fine.

Your biggest problem, however, is that while dendrochronology will tell you the age of the timber, it won't tell you when it was used or how old the structure that it came from, is.

A lot of miners re-used or reconstituted old timber, as that saved them the labor of cutting down and shaping new ones.

the timbers in that mine are called shoring..and they are all not the same age...that mine is more than likely 250- 300 years old......and many different groups worked it in that 300 year period...every party that worked it took it a little farther....spaniards...mexicans...waltz...and whoever worked it after waltz...and i'd bet the shoring in that mine has already been date checked

 

[UncleMatt]

Carbon dating will not provide you the specific year the wood was used, or a time frame narrow enough for our purposes here.

Using tree ring dating methods provides a fairly narrow time frame range for when the wood was used. You can tell this due to the fact no more rings are created in the wood once it is harvested for use, and the rings that already exist within it can be dated with tree ring databases. And you can safely assume the wood would have been used fairly soon after it was harvested, unless you want to believe people would have cut down iron wood trees and then left them laying around for many years before using them. That is unlikely. So using tree ring dating methods would give you the date they were used, plus or minus a few years at most. It would be the best method of dating these timbers in this mine.

You can also glean clues if the timbers were re-purposed from another structure, simply by looking for signs of fabrication or holes where nails or dowels were once used to fasten it within a structure.

This location is not close to any other old structures or areas where ruins of wooden structures can be found as far as I know. As well, it takes quite a bit of effort to haul such things in to this location. It makes more sense they were harvested from trees growing nearby, and then used as soon as they were.

 

[RG1976]

Hey Joe,

I can absolultey see why you and your wife could watch the series on TV and be able to debunk it immediately. You have been involved in this circle for years...decades. You know it inside & out. The series wasn't made for people like you - and the rest of the Dutchman community - for the exact points you offer. In the grand scheme of things, the Dutch hunting community is extremely small compared to the world-wide audience in which that series planned to deliver its content. So from that perspective, it would behoove the prod company to make things extra dramatic and sensational. That is the "fuel" behind my first and second video. Prior to watching the series, I knew NOTHING about the Dutchman - not even his real name.

I have mentioned here on T-Net many times - I have no issue with the cast - they are "paid actors" doing a job to earn a paycheck just like anyone else. My videos were never about Frank - Wayne - Woody or the 2 Eric's. If I saw them on the street - I'd shake their hand and thank them for keeping many of us entertained. I do hope, however, they do get a 2nd season....in a fairly short time, I'm going to run out of things to shoot out in the Superstitions! lol


The biggest issue I struggle with right now is this: Many people look at the "old timers" as some sort of hero. I don't. Not any more than I'd look at a lawyer that graduated from Harvard Law - 40 years experience - and has yet to win a case. That is not heroic - nor is it admirable. Now if this same lawyer went to go write a book - who would buy it? For some reason there are exceptions made for Dutch Hunter's and I need to spend more time figuring that out. An authority on a subject is someone that publicly shows tangible and hard proof of their endeavors. The end goal for any dutch hunter is to find the mine... and as far as I know - none of the people that you mentioned, Joe, have done that. The LDM is still proves to be elusive - unless of course the Pit Mine is the LDM - in which none of the people you mentioned were involved. Casper the ghost did it - as far as I know =)

 

[RG1976]

This location is not close to any other old structures or areas where ruins of wooden structures can be found as far as I know. As well, it takes quite a bit of effort to haul such things in to this location. It makes more sense they were harvested from trees growing nearby, and then used as soon as they were.

Unfortunately, that isn't true. The area where the pit mine is - arguably - the most excavated area in the range. Don't quote me on this, but shortly after Waltz' death - there were over 30 claims in that immediate area for Silver. Also, if we are to believe that the Pit Mine is the LDM - part of the legend says Waltz had 2 mines. 1.5 miles apart from each other. That fact matches the area of the Pit Mine perfectly.

One of the most well know structures in the area - are the Cliff Dwellings in Roger's canyon....that will 99% out-date any of the mines in the area. See attached "free use" photo I found online. These dwellings have wood in them, from the local area, that may or may not be identical to the wood in the local mines as well.

 

[Cubfan64]

Hey Joe,

I can absolultey see why you and your wife could watch the series on TV and be able to debunk it immediately. You have been involved in this circle for years...decades. You know it inside & out. The series wasn't made for people like you - and the rest of the Dutchman community - for the exact points you offer. In the grand scheme of things, the Dutch hunting community is extremely small compared to the world-wide audience in which that series planned to deliver its content. So from that perspective, it would behoove the prod company to make things extra dramatic and sensational. That is the "fuel" behind my first and second video. Prior to watching the series, I knew NOTHING about the Dutchman - not even his real name.

I have mentioned here on T-Net many times - I have no issue with the cast - they are "paid actors" doing a job to earn a paycheck just like anyone else. My videos were never about Frank - Wayne - Woody or the 2 Eric's. If I saw them on the street - I'd shake their hand and thank them for keeping many of us entertained. I do hope, however, they do get a 2nd season....in a fairly short time, I'm going to run out of things to shoot out in the Superstitions! lol


The biggest issue I struggle with right now is this: Many people look at the "old timers" as some sort of hero. I don't. Not any more than I'd look at a lawyer that graduated from Harvard Law - 40 years experience - and has yet to win a case. That is not heroic - nor is it admirable. Now if this same lawyer went to go write a book - who would buy it? For some reason there are exceptions made for Dutch Hunter's and I need to spend more time figuring that out. An authority on a subject is someone that publicly shows tangible and hard proof of their endeavors. The end goal for any dutch hunter is to find the mine... and as far as I know - none of the people that you mentioned, Joe, have done that. The LDM is still proves to be elusive - unless of course the Pit Mine is the LDM - in which none of the people you mentioned were involved. Casper the ghost did it - as far as I know =)

Ryan,

Don't make the mistake of thinking that because nobody has gone public with anything they may have found in the Superstition Mountains (or anywhere for that matter) that nothing has ever been found.

In my past experience with treasure hunters and observing human nature in general have told me there are 2 kinds of people who search for artifacts and items of possible monetary or historical value.

1) Those who primarily want the fame and notoriety that comes with a discovery

2) Those who primarily want to make $ off the discovery

Anyone who goes public in any way shape or form is either a member of group #1 or they are extremely naive. Anything found by someone in group #2 will most likely never be known about by anyone other than those who discovered and recovered it and those who purchased it - and rest assured there ARE people in group #2 although it's impossible to know how many.

I understand your theory, but I disagree that an authority on a subject has to publicly show tangible, hard proof.

 

[RG1976]

Hey Paul!

Good to hear from you!

What you are proposing is criminal behavior and can equate to someone robbing a bank and has yet to get caught.....which is still my point....neither heroic or admirable.

I suppose, from the chair that I type this, people that are "top of the class" as Joe said - do things on the "up & up"

yea?