✅ SOLVED Verify Kepi Button

[Bigcypresshunter]

Hello TNetters. I seem to have asked for help at a bad time or maybe Im boring everyone because I am getting little response to my questions lately. It appears we have lost many of our distinguished WII forum posters and maybe thats it. I know CBG is still here.

This was amoung the 10 buttons I purchased from eBay listed under WWII Militaria. Im sure they are not WWII. They are all CW era US Navy or the transitional period immediately following. I originally thought one civilian tinback button got mixed in because the USNavy wouldnt use anything that rusts...correct?..

OK back to the question. I think this 13mm floppy shank tinback is actually military. I think its a Federal Navy Kepi hat button. Can anybody verify please? Im having trouble posting true color. The button is brass, the back is tin plated.

 

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[DCMatt]

I found an old sale listing for a CW Union Navy kepi button dug at Hilton Head. It was a tin back. Sadly the pic was no longer available on the post.

DCMatt

 

[vhs07]

Sorry I can't be of any help, I know nothing about buttons.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I found an old sale listing for a CW Union Navy kepi button dug at Hilton Head. It was a tin back. Sadly the pic was no longer available on the post.

DCMatt

Thats the kind of stuff I am finding but nothing positive. I also found mention of a floppy shank.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Sorry I can't be of any help, I know nothing about buttons.

Im pretty good with buttons but I dont have any button books and I dont know much about the CW. Thanks.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

BigCypressHunter wrote:
> I originally thought one civilian tinback button got mixed in because the US Navy
> wouldn't use anything that rusts...correct?

Correct, IF the "ironback" button was to be used on cloth -- which would be stained by rust from the ironback every time the clothing got washed. But a kepi (hat) chinstrap button is on the end of the leather strap ...which would not show rust-staining.

> OK back to the question. I think this 13mm floppy shank tinback is actually military.
> I think its a Federal Navy Kepi hat button. Can anybody verify please?
> Im having trouble posting true color. The button is brass, the back is tin plated.

I'm sure you already know the following info. I'm posting it for other forum-readers, who may not already know it. The back of ALL "ironback" buttons was tin-plated iron, to prevent rusting, at least until the very thin tin plating wore off from usage. The use of iron for the back was a manufacturer's cost-saving tactic, because iron has always been much cheaper than brass.

The manufacture of "ironback" buttons dates all the way from the 1830s to the modernday era. Without a backmark, they are almost impossible to accurately date. Therefore, to time-date an ironback button, we must rely on examining the "details" of the button's front.

Your button's brass front has the eagle-standing-on-a-HORIZONTAL-anchor emblem, which was used by the US Navy from the late-1840s to 1941. (In 1941, the eagle's head was changed from facing toward ITS left to facing toward ITS right.) On your button, the eagle's chest and legs are very "puffed-out" -- a characteristic which is usually seen on civilian "Fashion" imitations of the actual Navy button. Also, the tops of the eagle's wings are quite "rounded" -- again a characteristic typically seen on civilian-usage imitations. Also, the emblem is "weak" (almost blurry) instead of sharply-detailed. Lastly, your button's brass face does not seem to show any sign of ever having been gold-gilted -- which is very unusual for actual US Navy buttons.

Now, all of that having been said... at 13 millimeters, its size is correct for a kepi-strap button. So, despite all indications to the contrary, it COULD have been a Military-usage button.

In summarry: The uncertainty about its time-period and military-or-non-military use is what keeps this button from having "significant" value. As I said in a previous reply, collectors of Historical Military buttons are reluctant to pay a "significant" amount of money for a button they cannot feel at least 90% CERTAIN is from the Historical time-period they collect.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Thanks CBG. I am slowly realizing that US Navy CW era buttons have little value. Im leaning toward post CW with this one because the flute is in front of the wing, unlike the 9 other buttons in the group. I realize also that the wing is rounded and blurry. I have some of the US Navy CW era buttons that are not gold guited. I have about 10 and looking for pictures.

I respect your opinion and I want to thank you for posting. All I need to verify is to compare with a picture of an authentic Navy hat button. I really would like to see a picture if possible. I am asking for no more than what anybody else would expect on this forum..

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Here are my other USNavy buttons I found in the pouch. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php?topic=39502.0 It may be rare but here it is. The eagle is much more detailed, wing tip pointed and anchor flute is behind wing. They dont look gold guilted unless it wore off.

I may have to buy me a button book lol.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I would like to ask another question while you are still here CBG because of your many years experience with CW artifacts and history. Have you ever heard of exchanging buttons at a GAR reunion?

 

[CSA2K]

I was never much into buttons.. had to dig 1000 shotgun shells per button
CBG is def the go-to-guy on this forum

Harry Ridgeway of Winchester VA has an excellent online archive:

http://relicman.com/buttons/zArchiveButton1AAA.htm
http://relicman.com/buttons/zBackmarkaaa.htm

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I was never much into buttons.. had to dig 1000 shotgun shells per button
CBG is def the go-to-guy on this forum

I agree

Harry Ridgeway of Winchester VA has an excellent online archive:

http://relicman.com/buttons/zBackmarkaaa.htm

According to this link, the back may be English manufacturer.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Here is relicmans extensive link on Navy buttons but I cant find it listed. http://relicman.com/buttons/zArchiveButtonFederalNavyC2part.htm Most of these are gold guilted as CBG said. However I am seeing many rounded wings and puffy chests and legs. There are always exceptions to the rule.

Still looking for a pic.

 

[IronSpike]

CBG [The manufacture of "ironback" buttons dates all the way from the 1830s to the modernday era. Without a backmark, they are almost impossible to accurately date. Therefore, to time-date an ironback button, we must rely on examining the "details" of the button's front./color]

Based button images in Albert's I think NA 118 is a close match: Navy; 2-piece with border. A. The device, upper fluke of anchor infront of left rm; 23 mm. (Construction similar to Confederate locals).

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

CBO [The manufacture of "ironback" buttons dates all the way from the 1830s to the modernday era. Without a backmark, they are almost impossible to accurately date. Therefore, to time-date an ironback button, we must rely on examining the "details" of the button's front./color]

Based button images in Albert's I think NA 118 is a close match: Navy; 2-piece with border. A. The device, upper fluke of anchor infront of left rm; 23 mm. (Construction similar to Confederate locals).

I need to buy the book. The button is about 13 mm. But Im getting a lot of responses.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Just to update I found a pic in my old files of the 13mm Civil War era tinned back US Navy kepi hat button and if the pic is authentic, its not a match. The anchor flute appears behind the wing. The rim is also different

Ill mark it solved as a fashion button or non-military replacement unless someone can find a different 13mm kepi hat button pic...