Using the Deus in Two Tones? Try it.

[vferrari]

I hope I don't appear to simply be obtuse or argumentative, but I'm still confused. Disc is set by ID#, no? So if I set it to 10, it will ignore any signal with an ID of 10 or less. How does it know that the signal has an ID of 10 or less without first processing it? And your nickle/iron example... the sampled signal would not have an ID of 10 or less, would it?

Or... does a sample perhaps consist of a "bundle" of signals, and Disc tells the processor to first drop out any signals of (in our example) 10 or less before doing any averaging or whatever else it does to that bundle?

Nah this fun, its mostly just educated (more or less - lol) guessing at this point anyways. I "think" when you set disc to 10 you actually do at least two things, first you tell the Deus how much discrimination filtering to apply (the higher the number the more filtering, I suppose) AND once the signal is processed through the filter you get an ID (and also a ferrous/non-ferrous determination which feeds the horseshoe) - so in this example you are also telling the Deus to suppress ID and audio for anything it determines to ID less than the discrimination setpoint - after it applies the discrimination filtering, in this case 10 (which this latter step is probably very similar to notch).

 

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[Iron Buzz]

Nah this fun, its mostly just educated (more or less - lol) guessing at this point anyways. I "think" when you set disc to 10 you actually do at least two things, first you tell the Deus how much discrimination filtering to apply (the higher the number the more filtering, I suppose) AND once the signal is processed through the filter you get an ID (and also a ferrous/non-ferrous determination which feeds the horseshoe) - so in this example you are also telling the Deus to suppress ID and audio for anything it determines to ID less than the discrimination setpoint - after it applies the discrimination filtering, in this case 10 (which this latter step is probably very similar to notch).

Still doesn't make sense to me why discrim would be any different than notch, in effect. Even the manual doesn't really make that clear. Guess I'm just glad that it works.

Just one more question: do you really look just like Chevy Chase?

 

[Tedyoh]

Or look at it this way......... discrimination of 1 is like having a screen sifter that has 1" x 1" holes in it.....lets a lot of stuff pass through the holes.....increase the discrimination to 10 your screen sifter screen size shrinks 10 fold, or now it only has the screen size size of .10 x .10.....the coil is the screen......the ground is the material being sifted.......now my example is not to "scale" but what it means is if an iron nail that is being detected as a TDI of "5" and your Disc is set at 10 the nail doesnt get past the coil to the controller and headphone processing......if you notched 0-10....the coil (or sifter screen) will allow the nail to pass the coil and be processed by the controller and headphones BUT an audio signal will not be produced.....so the Disc setting is stopped at the coil and the notch is stopped at the controller or headphones (audio only)......this is the Layman way I understand it anyway.

 

[Iron Buzz]

Or look at it this way......... discrimination of 1 is like having a screen sifter that has 1" x 1" holes in it.....lets a lot of stuff pass through the holes.....increase the discrimination to 10 your screen sifter screen size shrinks 10 fold, or now it only has the screen size size of .10 x .10.....the coil is the screen......the ground is the material being sifted.......now my example is not to "scale" but what it means is if an iron nail that is being detected as a TDI of "5" and your Disc is set at 10 the nail doesnt get past the coil to the controller and headphone processing......if you notched 0-10....the coil (or sifter screen) will allow the nail to pass the coil and be processed by the controller and headphones BUT an audio signal will not be produced.....so the Disc setting is stopped at the coil and the notch is stopped at the controller or headphones (audio only)......this is the Layman way I understand it anyway.

I understand what discrimination does, Ted. I also understand what notch does. What I don't understand is what the difference is, aside from the fact that notch lets you apply discrimination in three "windows". The manual doesn't say anything about any other difference. Where did we get this idea that it is in fact simply audio elimination? And why is one better than the other? If I don't hear iron, then hasn't it been discriminated out?

 

[Tedyoh]

I understand what discrimination does, Ted. I also understand what notch does. What I don't understand is what the difference is, aside from the fact that notch lets you apply discrimination in three "windows". The manual doesn't say anything about any other difference. Where did we get this idea that it is in fact simply audio elimination? And why is one better than the other? If I don't hear iron, then hasn't it been discriminated out?

Notch let you apply notch in 3 different windows, not Discrimination in 3 different windows, this is why there's only 1 discrimination setting you can make and many notch settings you can make.

 

[Tedyoh]

Notch let you apply notch in 3 different windows, not Discrimination in 3 different windows, this is why there's only 1 discrimination setting you can make and many notch settings you can make.

I also like to add that people have contacted XP C.S. in France and they, in France, have said "notch and discrimination are the same" - this simply can not be true IMO.

 

[Iron Buzz]

Notch let you apply notch in 3 different windows, not Discrimination in 3 different windows, this is why there's only 1 discrimination setting you can make and many notch settings you can make.

Either that, or it is simply a confusing implementation. You say that even XP says there is no difference, and they wrote the code. The manual doesn't speak of any difference. It says of notch,

The Notch complements the discrimination: it enables a "window" of targets to be rejected whereas discrimination rejects all targets below a selected threshold.
For example, if you detect a redundant, undesirable target in the ground, you can decide just to reject the corresponding conductivity group and continue to detect targets whose conductivity is higher and lower than those in this group.

And discrimination:

Discrimination enables undesirable targets to be rejected by raising or lowering a threshold below which certain metals are differentiated. The conductivity scale (0 to 99) for metal targets shown below will help you better understand the discrimination range

I dunno... they sound pretty similar to me. Both are based on conductivity, both reject the target.

 

[Tedyoh]

Either that, or it is simply a confusing implementation. You say that even XP says there is no difference, and they wrote the code. The manual doesn't speak of any difference. It says of notch,



And discrimination:



I dunno... they sound pretty similar to me. Both are based on conductivity, both reject the target.

My company writes a lot of codes and regulations i do not understand but, (if in a jam) i will tell people what they want to hear....it's human nature, especially now-a-days, to get "the work off my desk"

Yes both reject targets, but it is "where" the targets rejected at........maybe ill do this tomorrow if im bored........ill discriminate to 99 in heavy iron and see what happens (both audio and VDI) then i'll notch 0-99 and see what happes (both Audio and VDI)

 

[vferrari]

I understand what discrimination does, Ted. I also understand what notch does. What I don't understand is what the difference is, aside from the fact that notch lets you apply discrimination in three "windows". The manual doesn't say anything about any other difference. Where did we get this idea that it is in fact simply audio elimination? And why is one better than the other? If I don't hear iron, then hasn't it been discriminated out?

The idea that notch is only audio elimination (or more correctly audio and target ID blocking) is covered in Andy Sabisch's book on the Deus which is endorsed by XP and it gets applied AFTER discrimination is applied. Discrimination applies a digital signal processing to the raw target signal.

You ask why one is better than the other, well I thought I explained it several different ways. For one thing you keep looking at it as if you only have a piece of iron underneath your coil - what is important is how the that iron affects your ability to pick up a desired target, not really whether or not you hear that iron. Discrimination helps with this, because it affects how the target ID is determined if you have multiple targets underneath the coil. Also, if you apply too much discrimination you will LOSE DEPTH CAPABILITY even for targets that have conductivities ABOVE the discrimination breakpoint. This is not true for notch. If you set DISC to 40 with no notch you set NOTCH from 00 to 40 with no disc, your detector will behave differently in each case. In the first case, you are applying heavy signal processing filtering. Digital filters and signal processing are not perfect, plus you affect the response of the detector because applying such filtering bogs down the microprocessor that is doing all the computations. The affects depth so a deep high conductor target, say a dime that registers a target ID of 93, but is a week signal because its deep may not be heard when you apply disc all the way to 40, even when the target ID of the dime is well above the disc breakpoint. Conversely, if you have no discrimination applied and simply notch all the way to 40, there is no signal processing applied only audio and target ID blocking, the dime signal will be unaffected. Yes, in both cases you will not hear iron nor get an iron ID, but the way the detector is responding to the desired higher conductor is way different. Try it yourself, but hopefully we can get a youtube expert to post a video demonstrating this. There are secondary effects to be considered also such as how the iron masks a desired target and how the deus processes a composite iron/coin target (iron can drag down the composite target ID, the degree to which this effect is seen can be mitigated through use of discrimination BUT NOT notch which will have NO effect on this blended target ID But using notch can help filter undesired audio and target ID artifacts without affecting how the signal is processed by the Deus. The key is deftly using both Discrimination AND notch in concert with each other to better bring out the desired target signal.


Target>Coil>Signal Detection>Signal Processing (Discrimination, Reactivity, Silencer filters are applied here depending on user settings)>Ferrous/Non Ferrous, depth estimate from signal strength for the horseshoe indication is generated as well as Audio and Target ID's from the processed signal>Notch (if applicable) is then applied here to block undesired tones and associated target IDs from being seen and heard>Display and Headphones respond.




Andy's book has further detailed explanations of the differences between notch and disc and makes a big point at his bootcamp sessions that notch DOES NOT EQUAL discrimination. Feel free to check out Andy's book instead of the paltry instruction manual if you want the details you are looking for or run some tests. Please don't just take my word on it, by all means. I'm all for skepticism, but I think it is perhaps going a little too far at this point so I think I am going move on.

 

[Bharpring]

Does Andy have a new Book on the Deus for Version 4? I believe there are some major differences between V4 and V3.2 filters.

 

[vferrari]

Not yet, but Andy is working on an update for the book thst will address the new filters in V4 and the other V4 changes. No release date announced.

 

[Bharpring]

So is there a "sweet spot" for max depth with a min Disc and Notch setting to unmask non ferrous in iron infested sites with either Pitch or Full Tones?

If so what are the settings in Neutral soil conditions?

Thanks

 

[vferrari]

I don't know what the sweet spot would be but I do know you start affecting depth above disc ~20. I personally go no higher than 10. I think Ted may have the sweet spot at disc 10 and notch 10-25.

 

[Tedyoh]

My edited "Deep Program" in 2 tone gets better depth than CD's pitch program, over an inch on a dime....I did test depth but not separation.

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[Bharpring]

Unfortunately the silencer filters for Deep Program are old and inferior to Deus Fast. Does anyone know if any other programs have the updated V4 silencer filters?

 

[Tedyoh]

Unfortunately the silencer filters for Deep Program are old and inferior to Deus Fast. Does anyone know if any other programs have the updated V4 silencer filters?

The silencer is turned off so don't worry about it, plus I doubt XP is putting inferior anything in the new updated programs, they are just different filters not inferior.

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[vferrari]

Silencer only comes into play for me when I want to bust up bottle caps so they sound crappy. I would not apply it to an unmasking program. I don't think it matters much which version of Silencer filters you use to do this. Not sure why XP even bothered to include the old filter versions in those new built in programs. If you want the newest filters, use Deus Fast as your base builder program.

 

[Tedyoh]

Silencer only comes into play for me when I want to bust up bottle caps so they sound crappy. I would not apply it to an unmasking program. I don't think it matters much which version of Silencer filters you use to do this. Not sure why XP even bothered to include the old filter versions in those new built in programs. If you want the newest filters, use Deus Fast as your base builder program.

My uneducated guess would be certian filters work better with the certain tones that are associated with the factory programs in V4.0, not so much with the silencer (my "proof" is listed below), 4.0 Fast has 3 tones, Hot uses full tones and Deep uses 2 tones.....all different tones, all different filters.....and ALL with the silencer turned off (-1)....if the silencer is turned off why do they say the filters are silencer filters?

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Side note and I may be wrong bit I think the Hot program uses 4.0 filters, not Deus Fast....

 

[vferrari]

Good point. I will have to fish out that info sheet Andy put together on the v4 filters for his bootcamp. Did not absorb the material yet.

 

[Bharpring]

Calabash Digger did a recent video testing the Silencer Filters from Deep, Hot and Deus Fast. He showed how all three performed differently with the Silencer turned off (-1). The Deus Fast with the V4 filter shined in his test. Actually it sounded so much better than both Hot and Deep that in my opinion it was no contest. So there is something going on with the filters for V4 vs the older software versions even when the filters are turned off? Maybe the coils have something to do with the filters working better on certain programs as well?

I know that Deus Fast with HF Elliptical is hard to beat. But my workhorse is the LF 9" coil for me. I am interested in learning some new settings that could maximize the unmasking in iron and aluminum trash without sacrificing depth. Trying out the pitch tones was a start, but I don't understand how to hear the low tones of iron in Pitch? I also need to get more familiar with using some Disc with notch.

I actually have a 4 Tone program that works great in heavy trash sites like public parks or old dumps. I start with Deus Fast and set Disc -6.4, go to Expert and select 4 Tones, go to expert and set the first, second, and forth Tones to 120Hz. I then set the third tone to 921Hz. Then set my tone breaks leaving the first tone alone at -6.4, the setting the second break at 30 and the third break at 97. Then go back to the main screen and set the Sensitivity to 93 and expert to TX Power 3. Go back to main menu and set Audio Resp. 6 (leave Audio Overload alone), Iron Vol 3, Reactivity 2.5, Silencer -1, and leave notch alone. Set the Frequency to 8Hz and go. Program is chatty with the iron but gives great feedback and great depth. Sometimes I change the second tone break to 90 to kill the silver or clad quarters.

I intend to try Disc at 0 and notch out 0 - 10 in my Full Tones program tomorrow to see how it performs. I ran a test in my garden today to see how the depth was affected by the additional Disc and depth was slightly affected, but not enough to miss deep targets. Any other ideas to use in iron infested sites?