Using the Deus in Two Tones? Try it.

[Bharpring]

Are you sacrificing any depth using Disc 10 with Pitch tone vs Full Tones with low (or no) Disc?

Without the Disc 10 in Pitch, big iron sounds very good like non ferrous targets.

 

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[vferrari]

You don't sacrifice depth with discrimination until you push it past 15 or 20.

 

[Bharpring]

I went out today with both my 9" LF and HF Elliptical to test the pitch program. Dug some decent stuff, but dug a lot more iron than I usually do too. Do you find that the advantage of using pitch is better depth than Full Tones with the same settings?

 

[vferrari]

I have two, 2 tone programs set up..... the first is Garys Sifter Program (you can find these settings on a google search which I think will take you to XP's web site) - I use this program in PA, reason being there is massive amounts of shale in this area and targets are rarely deeper than 5 - 6 inches, so when the iron and non ferrous are so close to the surface and close together, the shallow / mild settings in this program don't overload the iron in your headphones.

The second is the XP factory "Deep" program - only things I edit in both programs are;

Iron Volume off

Tones - 2 tone

Then to notch, go into expert and notch 0 - 25 (if you apply notch in the non expert field it will raise your discrimination to 25)

Ground Balance - Tracking (then in expert I apply ground notch to 83 for hot rocks, if you don't have H.R.'s no need to apply G.N. unless you are falsing for another reason)

Also I prefer 12 kHz over 18 kHz, you get a tad more depth in 12, I have the HF coil I will use and run these programs in 28 kHz in the Spring

The stuff I found in PA I was using Garys Sifter, the stuff I found in my yard in OH, which were deeper, I was using Deep

Again, you have to have tone + a VDI over 25 to dig, if not it'll be iron or nails......I'm not sure why these programs give tone but no VDI with notch set to 25, it's like the notch is only notching the VDI number and not the tone. I though notch would notch both tone and VDI number but I'm finding this is not the case.......that's why I'm saying it again (which goes what "normally" not to do with the Deus) - you must have tone and VDI over 25 to dig.

Also one last point I'll say again, this is a relic program, you will dig way to much junk using these in a modern trash area or park.......unless you make tone + a VDI over 80 a dig target

I am planning on experimenting with two tone this weekend and have a comment on the above - specifically when you say that to notch go into expert mode and notch 00 to 25 otherwise you will increase Discrimination instead, I think while it is true you need to set notch via expert mode so you can create a notch range of 00-25 (otherwise you are limited to a notch width of only 6 units (e.g., 00-06 or 06 to 12). So you need to set notch using the expert menu where you can expand the range and also set multiple (up to 3) notch sections if desired (though not in this case unless you want to notch the high vdi iron wraparound - I do not personally recommend that but depending on the situation, it might be warranted). The discrimination increased as a result of you trying to increase the vdi of of the first tone break point (not the notch point). Other than in full tones where the tone breakpoints are not adjustable, in multi-tones (i.e., 2, 3, 4, or 5 tones) the first tone break is always going to be based on where you have discrimination set. When you attempted to increase the first break when you were first attempting to program this mode, you were basically increasing discrimination as you discovered. So set disc where you want it and that will determine the ferrou-non-ferrous tone break and notch up to 25 (or whatever you chose) to get the non-ferrous 2nd tone you want and vdi. The other advantage to notching up to 25 vice setting disc up that high is that you don't affect depth as long as you keep disc at 10 or less (you can probably safely go to 15 without affecting depth but why add the additional processing). The other good thing about using notch is that it doesn't matter where the tone break occurs so you can set disc to whatever you like less than 10.

My opinion is iron volume is needed when using full tones, but I feel it's not needed when using 2 tones....i will be using these programs in heavy iron, after I've been through them in full tones, so I don't see the need for iron volume (in a 2 tone program) - as far as depth or the "edge of detection depth", that is really a non factor for me in heavy iron. I haven't messed with CD's pitch program much yet so we should leave that for him and wait for his opinion.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Even though there is menu selection for Iron Volume when using full tones, it basically does nothing. If you discriminate out iron in full tones you basically will not hear anything that is detected in the discrimination range regardless of how you have iron volume set. This is not the case when you are using multi-tones. The fact that iron volume can be adjusted in multi-tones means that you can set up this two-tone unmasking mode one of several ways. The way Ted has it set with a notch filter and no iron volume, or you can use iron volume (but I think you have to set the lower notch threshhold above the discrimination p,oint for this to work) or you can set up a two tone pitch program with iron volume and pitch like beep1971. Plan to try all of these various two-tone unmasking variations out to see what works for me. I think this can be a great tool to have in the kit and it is nice that multi-tones can be used in this manner. Thanks Ted, Calabash, and beep1971 from across the pond for pointing out this twist.

 

[Calabash Digger]

Silver coins at depth in my soil can read from 96-99 just depends on the depth actually have them on video doing so and how notch knocks them out. Also some use a high end tone tone break 97-99 and set it at 120 h so it calls those deep coins iron at that point. The test was shown in 7 kh with id norm off and on it doesn't matter when the targets get to a ceartain depth the deus will jack them up into that range.

On higher frequencies maybe just notch 99 - 99 and at 8 HZ notch 97 - 99 and turn off ID Norm? ID Norm jacks up VDIs. Maybe Calabash could show a video testing 12" deep silver quarter and half dollar ID Norm vs no ID Norm at different frequencies? Would be interesting

 

[Jeff H]

Silver coins at depth in my soil can read from 96-99 just depends on the depth actually have them on video doing so and how notch knocks them out. Also some use a high end tone tone break 97-99 and set it at 120 h so it calls those deep coins iron at that point. The test was shown in 7 kh with id norm off and on it doesn't matter when the targets get to a ceartain depth the deus will jack them up into that range.

That is very true Calabash. A couple years back I once dug a Spanish 1 real at 11" deep give me a small peep and flash a 96 at 8 kHz with Norm OFF. I think it was an 89 out of the hole. Every setting has a positive and negative consequence. The high end Tone break might cost you a deep silver in clean ground but it might also help you sniff out a few goodies from the iron trash.

 

[vferrari]

One thing I have found but have not confirmed it with a controlled test is the that by running disc as negative as you can stand, iron that will give you a wraparound high tone will also often have an iron grunt component. That would seem like an ideal candidate for a two tone unmask. Also, if you always get a grunt with wraparound, there is no need to notch high and possibly miss high ringing true treasure. I would rather dig junk than take the chance at notching out a keeper, therefore, I no longer use an iron wraparound notch and normally notch nothing. However, I see where notch can come in handy as in Ted's two-tone unmask program and have also seen it used as a last resort noise eliminator for electric doggy fences by notching up to 45 or 50. Sure you are going to mask some keepers, but if it is the only way you can hunt a site without going bonkers or missing a legit hit amongst all the noise, it might be worth it.

 

[Gravelwasher]

Very interesting, I am playing with some test items in back yard and trying to get the biggest difference in tones on ferrous and non ferrous.
Using the elliptical HF coil I am setting disc to 2 and 74khz no notch and reactivity around 2.
It seems if I go lower on disc the sound starts to merge into the same tone.

Any tips on this?

 

[vferrari]

Are you using full tones, two tones or iron vol/ pitch?

 

[Bharpring]

The ground that I hunt is very similar to Calabash. Neutral, but sandy and most of the old stuff is no deeper than 12". However, all of my sites are infested with iron and some infested with modern trash as well. The best finds are usually nasty ugly signals. I have found the HF Elliptical at 75Hz to be awesome with separation, it pulls out so many targets. I recently set the Audio Response to 7 and am able to get almost as deep as my 9" LF coil at 8Hz and Reactivity 2.5/ Silencer -1. I have been switching between Full Tones and Pitch for about a week. I usually notch 0 to 10 (only use the second notch slot in expert notch- using the first slot is no different than discrimination) and jack the Disc down to -6.4. I am trying to figure out the advantages of using Pitch over Full Tones. Is there more depth with Pitch at Disc 10 than Full Tones at Disc 10? Or is it that the non ferrous just pops so well?

 

[Calabash Digger]

non ferrous pops so well. imo is the advantage. I set the audio respon at 6 and and the pitch on pitch as high as it will go.

 

[Jeff H]

Good observation V. I also noticed the pronounced iron grunt when using negative disc as you mention. It's definitely an angle worth pursuing. The spot I tried it in had too much graphite and granite ledge and was very chirpy. I had to eventually use some ground notch. It quieted the machine down quite a bit but I had too many variables tweaked at that point to make sense of everything. But I am going to try negative disc again in better ground and learn how to use that iron grunt with Tones to my advantage.

 

[vferrari]

The ground that I hunt is very similar to Calabash. Neutral, but sandy and most of the old stuff is no deeper than 12". However, all of my sites are infested with iron and some infested with modern trash as well. The best finds are usually nasty ugly signals. I have found the HF Elliptical at 75Hz to be awesome with separation, it pulls out so many targets. I recently set the Audio Response to 7 and am able to get almost as deep as my 9" LF coil at 8Hz and Reactivity 2.5/ Silencer -1. I have been switching between Full Tones and Pitch for about a week. I usually notch 0 to 10 (only use the second notch slot in expert notch- using the first slot is no different than discrimination) and jack the Disc down to -6.4. I am trying to figure out the advantages of using Pitch over Full Tones. Is there more depth with Pitch at Disc 10 than Full Tones at Disc 10? Or is it that the non ferrous just pops so well?

I think that is a good approach (switching between pitch and tone) as long as it does not screw you up and you can do it "without thinking about it", that is, when you do it you are just focused on the target and not the detector, then that is a good way to go. I have a gold field variant custom program in one of my slots. Gold Field is a pitch program but is also set up more like a traditional all metal mode with threshold, but with the added advantage that you can add some discrimination (it is a applied in a different way than the traditional discrimination/tone modes), and you can also adjust detector response through reactivity (again this works a little differently in gold field than it does in the discrimination modes). It is not even really like putting the discrimination programs in pitch, it's really a different animal. I am digressing and not trying to sell gold field mode here, though, just trying to make the point that it is a completely different mode but I have gotten used to routinely switching it in seamlessly either in search mode or when trying to analyze a target when needed without thinking about it.

Just wanted to clear something up in Bharping's post though, there is no difference in the way Notch 1 and 2 operate (and Notch 3 for that matter). They are all just audio blankers and XP has provided the capability to apply three notches to any search program. In fact, they do not have to be applied in sequence (i.e., notch 1 in the lower TID range, notch 2 in the middle TID range, and Notch 3 in the upper TID range - people typically use notch 3 for iron wraparound, but you can just as easily use notch 1 for that if you want - though it makes more sense to just use notch 3 if that is something you use on every custom program). In other words, saying that the first [notch] slot is no different than discrimination is not true. The first tone break, however, is equivalent to discrimination. I think people get confused on this because of the similarity between the way you set up tone breaks and the way you set up notches in the expert menus. Bottom line: Notch 1 does not equal Discrimination. Discrimination is a filter that is applied to process the detected target's electromagnetic field while notch is just an audio blanker applied to the post processed tone. Just wanted to clear that up, not a big deal, and this is not meant to be a slam on Bharping, but it's little tidbits of misinformation like that that can have a big impact on the way people set up their machines. If I misunderstood what you were trying to say above or if you think I have it wrong (completely possible - I did not design the Deus and learn new things about it constantly), then by all means set me straight. That is what we all are here for, to learn how to use our machines better. HTH.

 

[Iron Buzz]

Discrimination is a filter that is applied to process the detected target's electromagnetic field while notch is just an audio blanker applied to the post processed tone.

I'm still confused by this. Why use Discrim at all, then? Why not simply use notch?

 

[Stretch Da Truth]

From what I get, Disc is applied first while swinging the coil. Usually the low end of the scale. IE - Disc 20. Will block Iron from being registered.
Notch is applied after and blocks out sounds. IE - Notch 40 - 50. Will not beep on most pull tabs but you will miss nickels.
Hope I got that right.
I have played with both and usually put Disc some where between -6.5 and 10. I was notching 97 - 99 here and there but have stopped. I was also notching 40 - 65 to avoid all the foil, slaw and tabs at one place but have stopped and only dig the 45's for the nickels. Wide open and good ears are the best way once you get comfy with the Deus.

 

[Iron Buzz]

From what I get, Disc is applied first while swinging the coil. Usually the low end of the scale. IE - Disc 20. Will block Iron from being registered.
Notch is applied after and blocks out sounds. IE - Notch 40 - 50. Will not beep on most pull tabs but you will miss nickels.
Hope I got that right.
I have played with both and usually put Disc some where between -6.5 and 10. I was notching 97 - 99 here and there but have stopped. I was also notching 40 - 65 to avoid all the foil, slaw and tabs at one place but have stopped and only dig the 45's for the nickels. Wide open and good ears are the best way once you get comfy with the Deus.

But that is exactly what I'm asking... what is Disc blocking, if not sound?

 

[Stretch Da Truth]

But that is exactly what I'm asking... what is Disc blocking, if not sound?

I guess you could Notch 0-20 instead of Discriminating it out.... I see Disc as the machine saying don't read/acknowledge these things when scanning. I see Notch as the machine saying I see this but you don't want me to beep for anything in x - y range so it doesn't. This can get tricky with the ID Norm feature on the Deus as items ring in higher as you go up from 4 - 18. I use 8 pretty exclusively and that makes all those numbers easier to read/understand/keep track of... I don't look a lot I use my ears mainly but knowing what the good items VDI's are help so you don't notch them out.

I might have to try a couple of samples where I notch instead of Disc out the lower range but you can't notch out -6.5... hmmm. Maybe I will just stick with the Disc and not notch... that's they way I like my Deus.

 

[vferrari]

I did not design the discrimination and detection processing algorithms so don't take what I say below as gospel but the way I look at it is this: Like I said before discrimination is a signal processing filter that processes the received target signal and is part of the overall detection algorithm that tries to determine what the target is (Target ID). Notch merely blocks the post-processed Target ID and Target audio as determined by the detection algorithm.

Discrimination is a double-edged sword that can actually affect how the detection algorithm ID's the target for with both good and detrimental affect. If no discrimination is applied then the detection algorithm determines the signal and then passes it along to be visually and audibly ID'd. If you add discrimination to the detection algorithm you will indeed block sound and visual ID information that the detection algorithm determines to be ferrous below the ferrous target ID discrimination threshold you set, but, and this is key, discrimination also plays a role in the way the detection circuit determines the target ID especially if you have mixed ferrous and non-ferrous targets that are all being detected and processed simultaneously. That means without discrimination a nickel next to a piece of iron may sound different and display different if disc is set at 0 or minimum discrimination, as allowed by custom disc setting vs. what it may display/sound like when you have disc set at say 10. Conversely, let's say for the same situation, you set no discrimination but set Notch at 10. Yes, any ferrous ID below 10 will not be displayed, but the ID of the nickel may be pulled down by the adjacent iron. Adding discrimination of 10 may actually allow the nickel ID be closer to normal as if it is not next to the iron. That is the finesse of using disc, two-tone or pitch, and notch in combination to unmask a non-ferrous target.

Notice that I say "may" that is because this is not an exact science and the discrimination and detection algorithms are just idealized models of what is really going in with some very complex and infinite combinations of electromagnetic fields and conductivities not to mention the other environmental factos such as ground conductivity, ground mineralization, moisture, depth, target sizes, proximity between adjacent targets, how long the target has been buried, EMI, etc. A lot of variables involved here that cannot be fully accounted for by the discrimination and detection algorithm designers. This also helps explain why overdoing discrimination can be a very bad thing as you really distort the received target signal by over processing it which can affect depth and target ID accuracy.

Dunno if that helped or made things murkier, but that is why just notching zero to 10 is not the same as setting disc 10. Under certain circumstances they can give you completely different results on the same target situation.

 

[Iron Buzz]

I see Disc as the machine saying don't read/acknowledge these things when scanning.

How does it not read/acknowledge without reading/acknowledging to know if it should discriminate the signal or not? How can it ignore what it doesn't know?

 

[Iron Buzz]

... but, and this is key, discrimination also plays a role in the way the detection circuit determines the target ID especially if you have mixed ferrous and non-ferrous targets that are all being detected and processed simultaneously. That means without discrimination a nickel next to a piece of iron may sound different and display different if disc is set at 0 or minimum discrimination, as allowed by custom disc setting vs. what it may display/sound like when you have disc set at say 10. Conversely, let's say for the same situation, you set no discrimination but set Notch at 10. Yes, any ferrous ID below 10 will not be displayed, but the ID of the nickel may be pulled down by the adjacent iron. Adding discrimination of 10 may actually allow the nickel ID be closer to normal as if it is not next to the iron.

I hope I don't appear to simply be obtuse or argumentative, but I'm still confused. Disc is set by ID#, no? So if I set it to 10, it will ignore any signal with an ID of 10 or less. How does it know that the signal has an ID of 10 or less without first processing it? And your nickle/iron example... the sampled signal would not have an ID of 10 or less, would it?

Or... does a sample perhaps consist of a "bundle" of signals, and Disc tells the processor to first drop out any signals of (in our example) 10 or less before doing any averaging or whatever else it does to that bundle?