Updated! Is this a turtle? Or am I dreaming?

[kimmie4476]

Do you mean the turtle head? If that's the case, there is a "saddle" in between the mountain and the turtle where it looks like it would be easier to climb, then go across to the head. It also looks like on that side (the turtle would be facing it) that there is a rock out of place up there. I went up to those mountains again today, and I am working right now on the pics that we took of the area. Today we concentrated on what we know is man made (pictographs). All I know is I need help with this area. I had such a hard time distinguishing what was manmade and what natural, that I concentrated on what I know was man made. It is going to take a LONG time to figure out this area. If any of you come down to this area (Tombstone, AZ) send me a pm and I'll take you out there..... P.S. I saw hearts everywhere, but couldn't tell if they were real or natural! Also things that could be landmarks my imagination.....

 

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[Old Dog]

Kimmie,
Real markers will have confirmation marks or other signs that will tell you they are bonifide.
Tool marks such as chisel cuts are welcome things to see as well, they confirm trail markers as man made.
The fact that they will lead to other man made marks is a good confirmation as well.

 

[kimmie4476]

Here is a sign that the forestry service put up to tell us about these first pics in this post. These pictographs are at "council rock" in the dragoons. These are ones that everyone sees. The trail up here is so well marked from the indians that there are footprints carved into the rocks on the trail up. #2 has some blocks, Does anyone know what they mean? The scond pic is the whole thing from afar. #3 is from the top of the scene, #4 is just down from that, (what are those blocks?) and it looks like maybe a sun going behind another sun (in person). #5 three lizards? #6, close up of the 2 suns, #7 spiral (if it is a "snake", it is closed) #8 another spiral with the head pointing to the right. #9, matate holes

 

[kimmie4476]

The matates

 

[kimmie4476]

Ok, now these son't have any trails to them, which means they haven't been viewed as many times. These are southeast of council rock. My husband was tring to show me where he found, while he was hunting, an old camp with many pictographs. (we didn't find the camp because he wouldn't listen to me lol!) There are no trails to these, so who knows how many people have viewed them?

 

[kimmie4476]

So, here is some pics that I took in between the pictographs, the first is what looks like a snake kissing a man, and the second is another heart.....

 

[Old Dog]

And a lot more !!!
Thom

 

[Yellow Hammer]

All the pictographs look like there Indian. i don't see any Spanish pictographs. You need somebody to read and interpret what you found. You will know if it's Spanish when you see it chiseled in the rock.

 

[Old Dog]

Joe,
The Spanish used to take pictographs and petroglyphs and hide their signs and maps in them.
Many times altering them beyond recognition,
I have pictures of Freemont things that have been changed with crosses and things using the same medium.
Freemont predates the Anasazi.

All this is available to the casual eye in what the Spanish call Canyon Pintado (the Painted Canyon).
This Canyon is between Douglas Pass and Rangely CO.
Let me hunt up some examples and get back to you shortly ...

 

[DD-777]

Looks like a beautiful place to explore - sometimes, just being in a place like that is the treasure itself...

 

[Yellow Hammer]

Old dog,
All the symbols I have seen that the Spanish did had been chiseled in the rock.
Am I wrong to assume this is how they did it? I can't recall seeing any that were stained into the rock.
Please let me know if I am wrong. If I don't ask I can't learn. This philosophy has kept me alive.


As my gunny said there no dumb questions just dead people.

 

[Cynangyl]

fascinating thread!!

 

[Leones Corazon]

If in fact the spanish hid meaning along with native glyph's it remains to be seen. And i for one have not seen it with my own eyes.
Drill holes with an ID just under 2 inches....yes.....crosses carved heavily in the stone with a minor gitch to point direction yes....
arrows scratched into the rock that remove the natural patina yes....

Srferjoe from the 714 is very correct about death traps. Been there done that. And if there is anything old dog and i agree on anymore....
that would be the one. I don't care if it takes 4 seperate trips on 4 different days....do it until you have it figured out. And if it doesn't
look right...it probably isn't. They are real...and they are deadly. Spanish....haven't finished working around one as of yet to give the thumbs
up or down on that one so i have no comment. But silt from the river at 6 foot down....and the rock to your right ends up to be undercut...
i think you can envision the rest of the story that almost pile drived myself.

Throw away the BS books as well. Thats all they are...all they are is crafted copies of regurgated crxx some one copied from someone else...
who then mixed it all up to hide the copy of previous crud....and there ya have it...a new book. If you just have to have a book i'll tell you
what. Kenworthy did print one that i have personaly found to have a grain or to of truth to it. But finding that grain will only come in doing a
lot of ground pounding and studying of countless pictures to find. His first book is rather hard to find anymore....as it is out of print. But it is
more or less a picture book of markers....which it is of my personal belief are much older that the 1530's.....but i'll keep that rant to myself to
stay on topic. Keep the book in your rucksack while you hike and become familiar with the shapes used. Thats about all its good for. From there
debunk yourself over the entire spanish-ancient-anthropomorphic-mother nature-fractal theories that abound by using this simple lil tool. Become
your own worst enemy and scrutinize everything. If i see it once...cute. If i see it twice....hmmm. If i see it 3 or 4 times and in different areas it
is no longer anthropomorphic and or in the fractal arena. From there it is up to you to do your homework of known history...all the way back to
the time of solomon....leave no stone unturned. Look at some maps....as with the stage coaches of an era gone by....it was water hole to water
hole back then to survive. If they landed by ship who ever they were...they had to follow the water. Just because its a dry wash today....doesn't
mean it was back then....

And one more question for Kim. Do any of the triangles have tails?

 

[kimmie4476]

A little history of the area from the forestry website as well as a rough map of the locations that we have explored. Like I said, this is such a huge area, and wherever I go I find more and more signs...

Prehistory & History


The roots of human habitation in southeastern Arizona are still being traced, but the clues that have been uncovered have much to say. Finely shaped stone points of the Clovis Culture, found in conjunction with the remains of ice-age mammoths, tell us that these intrepid hunters ranged here as much as 11,200 years ago. The simple grinding and crushing tools of a people archaeologists call the Cochise Culture indicate that they responded to the disappearance of ice-age mammals by broadening their food supply to include a wide range of plants, as well as the deer and other animals which we see in southeastern Arizona today.


Eventually, pottery-making and agricultural peoples, such as the Mogollon and Hohokam, appeared. Their cultures reflect increasingly refined adaptations to local environments, and knowledge obtained from people living to the south, in present-day Mexico. Archaeologists debate their relationship to the later Sobaipuri, Tohono O’Odham and Pima.


These latter peoples were the inhabitants of the land of the Sky Islands when two very different groups of newcomers arrived on the scene, at very nearly the same time. The Apaches were Athabascan nomads from what we now call Canada. The Spaniards were fresh from their conquest of Mexico.


Conquistadores and Missionaries


In 1539, Fray (Friar) Marcos de Niza and a companion named Esteban became the first non-Indians of reliable record to enter what is now Arizona. They came searching for the Seven Cities of Cibola, a metropolis rumored to be richer than the gold-drenched capital of Aztec Mexico. Instead, they found the simple mud homes of pueblo Indians.


Lured by de Niza’s tales of treasure (though he in fact had found none), Don Francisco Vásquez de Coronado mounted a second expedition one year later. The entry of the Conquistadores into what is now the United States is marked by the Coronado National Memorial at the southern end of the Sierra Vista Ranger District. Evidence indicates that Coronado proceeded along a course roughly duplicated by the Montezuma Pass to Sonoita scenic drive through the San Rafael Valley. He continued north and east via the San Pedro and Gila River valleys, on a trek that eventually took him and his army all the way to modern-day Kansas. The expedition, however, was considered a total failure. The land through which it passed held so little of value to the Spaniards that they went back to Mexico and didn’t return for nearly a century.


In the late 1600’s the lure of another type of reward, souls for the saving, brought Father Eusebio Kino to the Santa Cruz Valley. Kino, along with other Jesuits and Franciscans, built a system of missions across the Southwest where the padres vied for the faith of the native Sabaipuris, Pimas and Tohono O’Odham, as well as the Apaches. On the heels of the missionaries came silver miners armed with tools for extracting from the land what their predecessors had failed to find for the taking among its residents.

Now, could it be that the indians and the spanish were here at the same time or one before the other? remember that the indians weren't always unfriendly, some say the spanish used them as slaves for their mines. On that one pictograph above the "snake kissing" formation, it looks like a hat of some sort (or maybe an alien which fits my UFO pic lol) and above that in the same scene is two spirals with a mountain range in-between, which on the rough map I drew could depict the small range between the pictographs and the hearts. And all over all three of the ranges are things that could be markers like the heart in the recent pics (the one on top of a hill), and what drew my eye to look that way was a formation of rocks that looked like a hand pointing to it. The hand formation doesn't come through the same in the picture I took, so I didn't post it (everyone would just say it was natural, but it made me turn around and look where it was pointing)

But anyways, like I said, this outing I was concentrating on what I knew was manmade, and getting a lay of the land that you can't see from the road. I needed to know what we would be able to carry when we went to follow those hearts at the bottom of the canyon, and I also wanted to know if those pictographs depicted anything like a map as I had seen them before, but that was before I found this website and I didn't know what to look for.

 

[Cynangyl]

Fascinating history Kimmie! Thanks for sharing with us!

 

[kimmie4476]

The triangles on the first turtle? No, at least I didn't see any, but then I haven't gotten up close enough to it yet to really look at it. That first turtle is really treacherous terrain, and I'm too out of shape right now to get to it (heck I'm sore from the 3 mile hike in the mountains yesterday!), but I'm hoping that by starting with the heart trail and exploring that area (less treacherous) that I will eventually be able to tackle that mountain as it looks very promising!

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

cochise stronghold is a wonderful and mysterious place.
not a place for the timid or out of shape hikers.
i have not seen evidence that the spanish or americans prior to 1886 entered those rocks other than 'guests' of the apache.
following the apache into that mountain was suicide.
find the waterfalls and you have found the treasure of the dragoon's.

 

[kimmie4476]

Lol, I've been to the waterfalls a couple of times...You're right..it is a treasure....Have you seen the heart and formations that I am talking about?

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

no, i have not seen the heart....but i did recognize the rocks before you posted the location...lol.

 

[kimmie4476]

found this under the "treasure legends" posts on this site..anyone else from this area hear of it?
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,149544.0.html

Here’s one ‘story’ :
Coronado National Memorial, off hwy. 92, 30 miles West Bisbee, AZ. is located somewhere close to the site where Coronado camped around 1540 with more than 1,000 fellow explorers. Prior to leaving the area, they buried a large quantity of bronze artillery and other weapons that would be worth a fortune today. Other relics and artifacts can be found at this campsite as well.

P.S. not that it's what I would be looking for, it's just interesting that it's these same mountains.......