Ulloas Trinidad

[pegleglooker]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

hey don... don't forget me if you find anything

PLL

 

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[encinitas77]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

This has been a fantastic thread...you guys and gals all know your stuff and I am amazed by all the bits and pieces that everyone can toss in. Your all here...dreamers and skeptics...now, how do we find out what Markey did or didn't find? I don't want to go all "black helicopter" on this but it seems to me the lack of information on something of this historical significance in defening. It would cost a lot of money to change the "Cabrillo National Monument" in San Diego to the "Ulloa National Monument" hmmmm? Those skulls and the gold have to be somewhere...(probably next the the Arc of the Covenant in that big military warehouse...ha ha ha!!!) and someone knows. Why aren't they saying. I would hate to see a good TH fouled up by a governmental info blackout for historical status quo.

1ripper1

Check with Professor Arturo Arevalos at Oceanside Mira Costa campus (he is also the dept chair for social sciences). I took a Chicano history class with him years ago. He claims to have read forged historical documents that were found at the Hotel del Coronado that were a bogus attempt by the previous owner of the hotel to disprove Ulloa. (The previous owner who forged a war record to be buried in Arlington National Cemetery, only later to be exhumed when it was discovered that he wasn't a vet http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...AA35751C1A961958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all seems he had some expertise in creating false historical docs)

The Hotel Del and the Cabrillo National monument are in clear view of each other, and with the Cabrillo monument being one of the most visited monuments in our country, there is a lot to loose out on if the 'discovery' were to have taken place in O'side instead of Point Loma. Tourism brings a lot of $$$$$ to SD. There is a lot of interest to keep that $$$ in SD and out of O'side.

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

encinitas77
I'm not sure SD would lose that much money. I mean O'side is in SD county. I would think it's more of a " pride " thing and the arche would HATE to be proven wrong. Which means they would put up a helluva fight. Even if it was absolutely proven that Ulloa was the first I don't see them saying... OO Oops we were wrong... sorry. I see them pulling out EVERY ancient paper to prove the the fore-arche's were correct and that's that.... Attitude and pride...If I'm wrong and they were to say that the " proof " ( if found ) was correct and they were wrong I would give a public apology via a full page ad in the Times... But I don't think that will e v e r happen..

PLL

 

[jamesrav]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

It was interesting and nostalgic to read this thread, for I too was intrigued by this
topic 25 or more years ago. I read all the articles at the old Oceanside library with
a youthful enthusiasm, even though I knew I'd never be the one to 'find the treasure'.
Now reading about it, the most amazing part is how casually the discovery of multiple skulls
and coins in a cave was reported in the media, it'd be a huge story today. It sounds
like the meeting of the Historical Society describing this find was no big thing, even
though on the face of it, the history of California would be dramatically changed.

I've heard of these things happening before - small, local Historical Societies announcing major
discoveries - usually at the core is someone who wants notoriety for their Society and for them self.
And a Neanderthal skull as well, what a great cave that proved to be

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Hey jamesrav,
Have you ever heard of the Yuha man and how it's skeleton was found only to come up missing at a college library around Brawley Very interesting story..... The man who found it also found a ship out in the desert ( south of the border )...

PLL

 

[Isayhello2u]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Hey Pll is your source on M.C. seeing the ship verbal or was it in print somewhere.
if in print where?

and did they ever catch the people responsible for the 1981 theft of the Yuha man

Thanks

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

hey gang,
hello Isayhello2u, the yuhaman was found by Morlin Childers from the Imperial Valley College and according to popular belief the remains were in a section of the College in a locked container. This box was under Childers control and was his responsibilty, and some believe that it was Childers who had the box " moved ". It was also Childers who found a ship on the Yuha desert. There was a article from the Imperial Valley news sometime in the 1960's ( I think ) that showed a picture of him with the mast of this ship sticking out of the mud. I have posted it before and will post it here again. Isayhello if you want any more info just send me a PM and I can get back with you then...





If I remember right this is Childers


enjoy
PLL

 

[gollum]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

I'm only about 95% sure, but I think the guy in the second picture is George Mroczkowski of San Diego.

Best-Mike

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Mike:
Now that's a name I haven't heard in ten years. George (RIP) was one of the good guys in the SC area. I seem to remember going into his treasure store in San Diego.

 

[gollum]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

That's what I keep hearing about him. He was a great guy, and would always have everybody laughing.

I know a couple of people who were good buddies of his (Dr. Roy Roush for one). They tell some pretty funny stories about him.

Best-Mike

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Mike:
Small world; it was Roy who introduced me to George. Quick story on Roy: We once went to Randsburg to MD, found a dirt parking area and Roy started to tune in his MD. He got an immediate hit--a 20s something SLQ. We never found anything that good the rest of the day.
Such is the nature of MD-ing.
Don.....

 

[gollum]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Was that his big a$$ed detector that had a little coil in each corner of the huge square coil? You know, he still has that thing. It weighs a ton too. Speaking of Roy, stay tuned for a big announcement next week. I am going out of town this Thursday till Monday to look at a site, but I'll talk more about it when I get back.

Small world indeed.

Best-Mike

 

[Mackaydon]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Mike:
Sounds like you're describing a WW II mine detector.
As to a big announcement from you and Roy, hopefully part of that announcement will be the sale of his 10,000th book or the completion of his house--during which construction period my children have grown to adults.
Best,
Don...
PS: Tell him I said hello; and my best to his wife also.

 

[gollum]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

I tell ya, it's hard to find slaves these days to work on that house. Although, everything in the Valley takes so much longer than anywhere else. I will say that last week, there were people there working on the house.

I'll tell he and Lydia that you said Hello.

Best-Mike

 

[Steve Lawson]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

I found this thread on the Trinidad intriguing. My name is Steve Lawson and for the last 25 years I’ve been researching and diving Southern California shipwrecks. I’ve published two books by Ed Ries on the history of sport fishing and fishing barges (many of which are regularly visited by divers such as myself). I’m working on a publication on shipwrecks of the San Diego area, hence, my renewed interest in the story of the Trinidad.

Here is what I know about the Trinidad (and can back up with documentation):

An early mention of Ulloa and the Trinidad appears in the Oakland Tribune, October 26, 1933.

In 1950, Dr. J. J. Markey enters the picture in his search for the wreck (Los Angeles Times Feb 13, 1950). In later articles, he asserts the wreck is that of the Trinidad and claims to find a cave with survivors of wreck with coins and other items dated from the period. Dr. Eileen Herbster also joins in the search and propagation of the story (Los Angeles Times May 1, 1957). In 1958 Markey also claims to find “San Luis Rey Man,” a 50,000 year old skull. (Los Angeles Times Jun 2, 1958).

In 1955 divers first located a wreck off Solano Beach (Los Angeles Times, July 30, 1956). A sketch and divers statements suggested that the wreck had cannons on board (San Diequito Citizen, date unknown). Scripps divers locate and examine the wreck and conclude “…it looks suspiciously like a lumber schooner…has information of an old lumber schooner that sank in a storm off Solano Beach three years ago. The indicated location coincides with that of the vessel on the bottom.” (Long Beach Press Telegram September 3, 1955). James Moriarity of USD investigated the wreck and its story, and “…went on record as stating that efforts put forth by Takasato and by Markey are all in vain. He theorized Takasato had uncovered an old lumber barge.” (The Blade-Tribune September 14, 1969). The article goes on to discredit the theory of the Trinidad having sunk off Solana Beach. A large salvage effort was under way in the summer of 1969 (The Blade-Tribune August 28, 1969). A 1990 article with Markey and skulls (Los Angeles Times, SD edition May 1931, 1990) cites Richard Crawford of the SDHS as being highly critical of the research and Markey. Mariarity would go on to write “Francisco de Ulloa’s Return: The Myth of the Sinking of the Trinidad.” CEDAM International Bulletin, 1970. Parts of a wreck washed ashore in 1991 near Cardiff. Members of the SDMM examined the wreckage and determined it was constructed between 1860-1900, based on woodpegs and construction techniques.

Sometime in the early 1980s, I called Dr. Markey and asked him about the Trinidad. He said, “I don’t want to talk about it now” and hung up.

As mentioned earlier, Wagner researched Ulloa and his voyage, suggesting that the Trinidad never got any further than 27 degrees North and that Ulloa returned to Spain and was buried there.

Years ago, Roy Rousch (a mutual friend of other posters here) researched the wreck. He told me that an article was printed in a local SD paper showing Markey in a cave with the skulls. Another photo was published were showed mountain ridges in the background. Roy went to the purported site, obtained permission from the ranch owner (who laughed about the story) and was unable to find a mountain ridge in the area like any depicted in the photograph. Roy said he even crossed over into Camp Pendleton.

Roy said he found an article in an Argosy magazine c.1960 showing the same photo of Markey with the skulls, only this one was supposedly taken in the Philippines. The only difference between the photo in Argosy and the SD paper was that they were opposite—one was flipped right to left so it was reversed.

The George U. Hind was a barkentine built in 1919 in Rolph, California. She measured 231’L 43.5’B, 18.6’D and 1,389 gross tons. By 1930 she was purchased for use as a fishing barge (Los Angeles Times October 27, 1930). On April 4, 1935, she dragged anchor and stranded on Solana Beach (Modesto Bee April 5, 1935). She was later pulled off and re-anchored, however, a notice was published that the “Navy Branch Hydrographic Office warns mariners to keep clear of the lighted derelict barkentine George U. Hind anchored with decks awash in six and one-half fathoms off Carlsbad, Ca. The craft is to be removed in six weeks” (Los Angeles Times, September 21, 1936). Another article states that she would be blow up as a menace to navigation if not claimed or moved (Oakland Tribune September 30, 1936).

To the best of my knowledge, there is no archival or physical evidence suggesting the Trinidad or any wreck of antiquity lies in the area or has been located and quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. In my opinion, the tale is supported only by wishful thinking.

gollum-- I am very interested in learning more about the ballast piles and gold crosses said to have been found in the area. Are there any photographs of these?

pedleglooker-Regarding the yard arm found in the desert, what paper did it appear in and what date?

I would like to hear more about the Trinidad and other treasure wrecks and invite you to contact me direct at [email protected].

Regards,

Steve

 

[bobinsd]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

OK, let's put this baby to bed.

While researching local files, I found the name of an Oceanside Dr. (born in 1919, in Oceanside) who used to cut Markey's grass and was also a personal friend of the cave photographer who told him that the coins were "planted". No physical evidence was ever produced. My new contact (just today) was surprised anyone was still interested, and he speaks regularly at different places by invitation to discuss San Diego history.

In short, his credentials are impeccable, and he really enjoyed discussing other subjects in addition to Dr. Markey.

I am hoping that someday he may contribute to Tnet. If you have any questions, post them here or by PM and I will forward them on to this gentleman. For obvious reasons, he does not want his name used at this time.

Bob

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Bob in SD: But of course you know that when you say: ".... coins were "planted". No physical evidence was ever produced.... " that that is all just a part of the grand conspiracy to hide the truth. You see, it's never possible that stories run out of control to some folk. The human psyche wants to hard to believe legends (afterall, who wants to be "left out?") that any evidence to the contrary will just be dismissed

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

hey gang,
If the coins were ' planted " then where did they come from, and more importantly where are they today

PLL

 

[bobinsd]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Markey made many trips to Spain and could have easily procured coins. Even though a picture was taken, the lineage of the coins was not recorded. The photographer never saw any skulls, and certainly no a Neanderthal skull. If any of it was true, I'm sure the Smithsonian would have been all over it.

 

[ghostdog]

Re: Ulloa's Trinidad

Before the 405 South freeway was put in,their was a inlet close to the present day La Costa off ramp, that ran from the ocean inland. When I saw it in the 1960"s ,it looked like a over grown swamp,but still was clearly defined. I believe what remains left of it today is a bird reserve.
I read some where years ago that a Spanish ship may have attempted to traverse it . I have heard Spanish artifects have been found on beaches close by..Its worth a search..