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Type opinions.
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Th3rty7
Silver Member
I dont think this can be solved by simply looking at the shape. Some thickness, and flaking shots would help.
Aren't Lermas fairly thick with early flaking? If it's thin with woodland flaking my vote is Adena blade.
Aren't Lermas fairly thick with early flaking? If it's thin with woodland flaking my vote is Adena blade.
Neanderthal
Bronze Member
Treasure_Hunter said:
You can find points that LOOK like Lerma everywhere, but that doesn't mean they are the same point, or people.
ShowmeMoflint
Sr. Member
I have researched this point in overstreet and I have came to the conclusion that is a Lerma point.I found one recently that I think is lerma point.I haven't found anything that resembles my find inn the north central section but Lerma JMO.Here is my Lerma
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Rainbow Johnson said:Treasure_Hunter said:
Their range includes Indiana if you believe all the mis information thats out there. I was also told it's an angostura and an agate basin. It's actually a mid-late woodland blade. John Ray, Mike, and Josh are onto something with their posts. This is a highly unusual blade style for this area and most collectors here are stumped trying to give it a name. The outline most closely resembles a modesto of the Scherschel complex but the workmanship and material proves it's not. I'm not one to rewrite the books on point distribution. A lot more than outline goes into naming points but hey you can call it what you want. The link that shows lermas coming all the way to Indiana also shows fulton turkey tails going all the way to Maine (??) and aftons going all the way to Ohio (intrusive mound cluster). That typology site is an absolute joke. I sat up with a friend last evening going through it and we found error after error. I suggest opening a book by Greg Perino. Good discussion.
Neanderthal said:
Then maybe someone should notify Overstreet Indian Arrowheads Identification And Price Guide and tell them they are wrong so they can rewrite their book since they list Lerma Round Base as coming from that area, and even have pictures of some Lermas found in TN...
ShowmeMoflint
Sr. Member
I don't think anyone needs to contact Overstreet and tell them to republish because opinions given.I don't know if the point I found is Lerma or not but as stated I have not found any other point to correctly Identify my find but Lerma.Your find resembles mine and until proven to me that it is something else I am calling it Lerma for now.What do I know I am not a authenticator by no means.Just rely on books published for referenceTreasure_Hunter said:Rainbow Johnson said:Treasure_Hunter said:
Their range includes Indiana if you believe all the mis information thats out there. I was also told it's an angostura and an agate basin. It's actually a mid-late woodland blade. John Ray, Mike, and Josh are onto something with their posts. This is a highly unusual blade style for this area and most collectors here are stumped trying to give it a name. The outline most closely resembles a modesto of the Scherschel complex but the workmanship and material proves it's not. I'm not one to rewrite the books on point distribution. A lot more than outline goes into naming points but hey you can call it what you want. The link that shows lermas coming all the way to Indiana also shows fulton turkey tails going all the way to Maine (
Neanderthal said:
Then maybe someone should notify Overstreet Indian Arrowheads Identification And Price Guide and tell them they are wrong so they can rewrite their book since they list Lerma Round Base as coming from that area, and even have pictures of some Lermas found in TN...
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ShowmeMoflint
Nice Lerma point......
I use to hunt a lot in Central Missouri, I lived in Columbia, Mo for almost 20 years.....I was primarily a water hunter because you could find so many really nice points after heavy rains, I walked hundreds of miles up and down creeks, streams and rivers when I lived there............
Nice Lerma point......
I use to hunt a lot in Central Missouri, I lived in Columbia, Mo for almost 20 years.....I was primarily a water hunter because you could find so many really nice points after heavy rains, I walked hundreds of miles up and down creeks, streams and rivers when I lived there............
ShowmeMoflint
Sr. Member
I walk about 80 percent creeks versus fields for the simple fact that I find more whole points per ratio than I would field walking.Plus there seems to be a better quality of flint and knapping.Hope you can get your point typed correctly.There is wide variety of typology books available but the problem still lies some points found are hard to type.
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ShowmeMoflint said:
I walked the stone bottom creeks for the same reason you do, I found a lot more whole, high quality points in the creeks. My best day ever was a day after about a 6" rain fall, walked several miles up and back a small creek that always produced points and found 40 whole points that day, about 20 of them were really nice points. That was a great day, and was double my next best day for creek walking.
The creek had to have gone through several areas where there were camp sites for the amount of points it produced, it was a spring feed creek, with several small springs emptying into it at several different locations as it ran. One of my axe heads in my collection was sticking out of the side of the wall above the creek maybe 2.5-3 foot below the surface where the side had given way and fell in, found it on a different day though....
Durring heavy rains the sides of the creeks would crumble away and fall in, I would find the points where they washed down stream and got caught on the down stream side of logs, rocks, weeds, anything that caused them to be out of the current........While walking a small creek I came to a small waterfall of about 18 inches, at the base of the water fall was a hole dug by the falling water, out of that hole I pulled 8-10 points all mixed in with the other rocks, several of those were very nice............
Oh, it was Rainbow Johnson who found the point that started this thread not I................Good luck hunting points....
K
Keokukjeff
Guest
Here is a link to a Lamine Blade..............a Late Archaic rare type Blade,
Go back a page or two and read what little info there is on them................
Not much info have I ever found on them..........
http://books.google.com/books?id=-S...ory of Missouri&pg=PA163#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Go back a page or two and read what little info there is on them................
Not much info have I ever found on them..........
http://books.google.com/books?id=-S...ory of Missouri&pg=PA163#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Neanderthal
Bronze Member
Treasure_Hunter said:
Do you think Robert Overstreet comes up with the information in there on his own? No. Collectors send him points and tell him what they are, and he puts them in those categories. I know this, I submitted some for one years ago. So, you aren't drawing from his knowledge, you are getting whatever Tom, Dick & Harry want to call them - regardless of their knowledge of points. This is why you'll find so many flaws in it. I'm not just picking on Overstreet either, most publications out there are no better, and a few even worse!
I could go on all day and point out the flaws, but won't. I will say that the later issues appear to be greatly improved over the earlier ones. It's good for a book with pretty pictures of pretty points and I still believe collectors should own them. But if you're looking for an accurate source for typology, it's not your best bet.
Road Dog
Hero Member
My first thought.....Lerma, but Karnak and Nodena are good possibilities. 
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Neanderthal said:
I can find dozens of respected references as well as examples of Lerma points found from Texas to Kentucky, but since they are all wrong according to you I shall now bow out of this thread.
Have a nice day............
ShowmeMoflint
Sr. Member
Now that is a possibility Nodena is kinda more like it than a Lerma.But it could go either way.I guess it really depends on where it was found.I do agree that typology books have errors just like anything else no one is perfectRoad Dog said:My first thought.....Lerma, but Karnak and Nodena are good possibilities.
F
Flintfinder of Mo.
Guest
What helps me to type hard to type points is, Knowing what I'm finding on a particular campsite. Most of my sites have certain types of points found on them. An example, If I am walking a field here in Mo. That I have found Etelys, Wadlows, Sedalia, Godar,points and blades, and I come across a really nice made point that has all the characteristics of an agate basin. Should I call it an agate basin, or maybe try to assume that its a very well made Sedalia? If I haven't found one such piece that dates back to the Agate basin time period(on this site) then I'm not calling it that. I find a lot of points that just cant be typed
I think sometimes they just had to go with what the flint gave them, then there are salvaged, and re sharpend blades and points that take on whole new shapes and sizes. I have an Adena site that produces some great points. Its a small site, but if you would see the different types of Adena looking points its amazing. You might call one point a hidden Valley, another a Dickson, a wabeasa, an Adena, Gary etc. They are all a little different, and are text book types of these points. But how can that be? I think I will get them together and let you guys be the judge. I am sure you guys that have same site finds see the same thing.
As far as Overstreet,, I have a large collection of books and mags, and I don't own one. I stick to books that focus on points found in my area of the midwest. There are to many points out there that resemble each other to much to have to sift through all of them. Overstreet is to broad for me. I think the best thing to help you type your points is your Archaeological Society Mags Old, and new.
Sorry for rambling on........ Adam I know you already know this stuff. John
I think sometimes they just had to go with what the flint gave them, then there are salvaged, and re sharpend blades and points that take on whole new shapes and sizes. I have an Adena site that produces some great points. Its a small site, but if you would see the different types of Adena looking points its amazing. You might call one point a hidden Valley, another a Dickson, a wabeasa, an Adena, Gary etc. They are all a little different, and are text book types of these points. But how can that be? I think I will get them together and let you guys be the judge. I am sure you guys that have same site finds see the same thing.
As far as Overstreet,, I have a large collection of books and mags, and I don't own one. I stick to books that focus on points found in my area of the midwest. There are to many points out there that resemble each other to much to have to sift through all of them. Overstreet is to broad for me. I think the best thing to help you type your points is your Archaeological Society Mags Old, and new.
Sorry for rambling on........ Adam I know you already know this stuff. John
quito
Silver Member
"This is why you'll find so many flaws in it."
If I didn't have a point that was just about a perfect match I would have never noticed it, but................
Overstreets 9, has the same point listed twice. It is a a G-10 Pelican Lake on page 932 valued at 275 to 500, and it's a Samantha Dart point on page 937 valued at 250 to 425.
I wonder how that one got submitted twice.
If I didn't have a point that was just about a perfect match I would have never noticed it, but................
Overstreets 9, has the same point listed twice. It is a a G-10 Pelican Lake on page 932 valued at 275 to 500, and it's a Samantha Dart point on page 937 valued at 250 to 425.
I wonder how that one got submitted twice.
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