Trail Signs and Monuments-Spanish or Somebody Else

[sdcfia]

Here's a map of the United States that shows land claimed by Spain, at one time or another. ... They also did some exploration in Georgia, North Carolina and Kentucky(?). There might have been some Spanish gold mining in northern Georgia and Alabama.

Some searchers claim these treasure vault sites were placed along the trails moving away from the mining areas. So that means they should have been heading toward Mexico City. This map shows a main trail going to Mexico City from New Mexico. This trail should have been loaded with vault sites.

As you know, I don't accept that the caches you're referring to are Spanish. A few minor ones throughout the Spanish period, yeah, sure, maybe here and there. Maybe some French too. Are there major precious metals hoards marked by complex coded signs executed by unnamed, off-the-radar Spanish from Mexico in the shadowy past? Possibly one or two (anything's possible), but overwhelmingly, huh-uh, IMO.

Spanish miners or Mexican miners? There's a big difference. The Spanish were professional contractors who spent their own money financing mining expeditions, which were expensive. Their efforts were well regulated and documented risks, controlled and taxed by the Crown. Very much on the radar. Nearly all their projects were in central Mexico, although in the later Spanish period they forayed somewhat into New Mexico and the southern Rockies (Colorado and Utah mostly, operating out of Santa Fe). Mexican miners were much less regulated, and their projects were less expensive since they were already settled near the Northern Frontier. There was more Mexican activity than Spanish in today's US. Many/most old Mexican sites were rediscovered by Anglos following the Spanish American War and worked by Americans. Did the Spanish and Mexicans mark their discoveries? Sure, but not with complex and arcane codes, but with simple, easy to recognize signs - maybe tree blazes, crude rock carvings, and other trail markers.

Did the Spanish and/or Mexican miners cache their spoils near their mines and return home empty-handed, planning on returning later to recover the loot? Why would they do this? They were already there in uncharted and risky locations, they had the manpower and means, they had the loot in hand and they were headed home anyway, so why bury it only to have to refinance yet another expedition later to finish the job? They already spent a lot of time and money, and cashed in on their gamble - why leave all the proceeds behind? And, theoretically, if they did leave it behind, why would we expect that they didn't come back later and recover it? This makes no sense to me.

The alleged Organized Cachers that you're asking about were secret off-the-radar guys, IMO. They might be any nationality, not representing any government but working for their own group(s) for their own reasons. They could have hidden and marked their caches any time between the 16th century and today. These caches may have been moved and re-marked at various times. The coded signs allegedly marking their caches seem to be complex and unsolvable. Whoever these guys were (are), they seem to be highly intelligent, well-heeled and powerful. If they exist at all, of course.

 

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[mdog]

As you know, I don't accept that the caches you're referring to are Spanish. A few minor ones throughout the Spanish period, yeah, sure, maybe here and there. Maybe some French too. Are there major precious metals hoards marked by complex coded signs executed by unnamed, off-the-radar Spanish from Mexico in the shadowy past? Possibly one or two (anything's possible), but overwhelmingly, huh-uh, IMO.

Spanish miners or Mexican miners? There's a big difference. The Spanish were professional contractors who spent their own money financing mining expeditions, which were expensive. Their efforts were well regulated and documented risks, controlled and taxed by the Crown. Very much on the radar. Nearly all their projects were in central Mexico, although in the later Spanish period they forayed somewhat into New Mexico and the southern Rockies (Colorado and Utah mostly, operating out of Santa Fe). Mexican miners were much less regulated, and their projects were less expensive since they were already settled near the Northern Frontier. There was more Mexican activity than Spanish in today's US. Many/most old Mexican sites were rediscovered by Anglos following the Spanish American War and worked by Americans. Did the Spanish and Mexicans mark their discoveries? Sure, but not with complex and arcane codes, but with simple, easy to recognize signs - maybe tree blazes, crude rock carvings, and other trail markers.

Did the Spanish and/or Mexican miners cache their spoils near their mines and return home empty-handed, planning on returning later to recover the loot? Why would they do this? They were already there in uncharted and risky locations, they had the manpower and means, they had the loot in hand and they were headed home anyway, so why bury it only to have to refinance yet another expedition later to finish the job? They already spent a lot of time and money, and cashed in on their gamble - why leave all the proceeds behind? And, theoretically, if they did leave it behind, why would we expect that they didn't come back later and recover it? This makes no sense to me.

The alleged Organized Cachers that you're asking about were secret off-the-radar guys, IMO. They might be any nationality, not representing any government but working for their own group(s) for their own reasons. They could have hidden and marked their caches any time between the 16th century and today. These caches may have been moved and re-marked at various times. The coded signs allegedly marking their caches seem to be complex and unsolvable. Whoever these guys were (are), they seem to be highly intelligent, well-heeled and powerful. If they exist at all, of course.

Great post, Sdc. I can only speak, with confidence, about the owl, heart, triangle site that I have studied for the past several years. It seems way to complicated for what somebody might need for a cache site. It's in territory that was once claimed by Spain, but the measurements are all in inches and feet. If the King of Spain had all these strict rules that had to be followed to the letter, why would he switch from Spanish measurements to English? The measurements are also very precise as are the placement of the markers.

More evidence would be nice. Maybe someday somebody will post a document that tells how grampa helped some guys put a big rock, shaped like a heart, over by the spring. That's the kind of information I'm looking for now.

I have some questions that maybe some of you mining experts might be able to answer. When a Spanish miner recovered gold or silver ore, did they have to take it to a specific settlement before they could have it processed and cast into bars? Thanks.

 

[Quinoa]

Welcome to the grand illusion.

 

[sdcfia]

Great post, Sdc. I can only speak, with confidence, about the owl, heart, triangle site that I have studied for the past several years. It seems way to complicated for what somebody might need for a cache site. It's in territory that was once claimed by Spain, but the measurements are all in inches and feet. If the King of Spain had all these strict rules that had to be followed to the letter, why would he switch from Spanish measurements to English? The measurements are also very precise as are the placement of the markers.

More evidence would be nice. Maybe someday somebody will post a document that tells how grampa helped some guys put a big rock, shaped like a heart, over by the spring. That's the kind of information I'm looking for now.

I have some questions that maybe some of you mining experts might be able to answer. When a Spanish miner recovered gold or silver ore, did they have to take it to a specific settlement before they could have it processed and cast into bars? Thanks.

When folks quit listening to whiskey talk and use their own noodles, most begin asking the same kind of questions as you do. Things are seldom as they seem, but snake oil salesmen have always done quite well, and deluded minds seldom let facts interfere with a good story. There is definitely something going on with your Wildcat project, IMO.

Yeah, family secrets have led to most quiet recoveries of cached valuables. If you knew that grampa used the posthole banking system, you might be in luck. It's all about degrees of separation. In the real world, anyway.

Most Spanish mining was for silver in Mexico, which was easy pickings and extremely lucrative for them. They generally used the patio process in the old days, which required crushing the ore and using mercury and salt to release the silver. Later, technology was improved and they added copper compounds to the soup. The resulting concentrates could then be smelted into bullion. The big mines had their own setups. There may have been a skosh of Mexican silver mining in today's US, I guess, if someone stumbled onto real easy pickings, but these folks were looking for gold, not silver.

Placer gold is the easiest to find and recover, but it also plays out fast. Using mercury greatly improved the recovery. It can be pretty easily cast into crude gold-alloy bars or transported as nuggets and dust. Free-milling gold ore is also what the early prospectors were looking for - visible raw gold contained in rock, often quartz. This has to be crushed as fine as possible, then the heavier gold removed by gravity using water. The concentrates, similar to placer gold, could be smelted or transported as is. This all took expertise, but was low-tech and could be done on the frontier if need be.

 

[releventchair]

Great post, Sdc. I can only speak, with confidence, about the owl, heart, triangle site that I have studied for the past several years. It seems way to complicated for what somebody might need for a cache site. It's in territory that was once claimed by Spain, but the measurements are all in inches and feet. If the King of Spain had all these strict rules that had to be followed to the letter, why would he switch from Spanish measurements to English? The measurements are also very precise as are the placement of the markers.

More evidence would be nice. Maybe someday somebody will post a document that tells how grampa helped some guys put a big rock, shaped like a heart, over by the spring. That's the kind of information I'm looking for now.

I have some questions that maybe some of you mining experts might be able to answer. When a Spanish miner recovered gold or silver ore, did they have to take it to a specific settlement before they could have it processed and cast into bars? Thanks.

In addition to sdcfia 's mention of extraction from ore , arrastra's were used in other areas early on. In the S.W. for sure.

A furnace could be built but often were used a while and likely for anyone who wanted to use it , for a small fee of course.


I don't know if you have read this , and while Spanish are not your biggest question they had influence on another valuable commodity....

https://ir.uiowa.edu/cgi/viewconten....com/&httpsredir=1&article=1132&context=igsar

 

[sdcfia]

In addition to sdcfia 's mention of extraction from ore , arrastra's were used in other areas early on. In the S.W. for sure.

I don't know if you have read this, and while Spanish are not your biggest question they had influence on another valuable commodity....

https://ir.uiowa.edu/cgi/viewconten....com/&httpsredir=1&article=1132&context=igsar

We still find old arrastra ruins out in the brush. They were a low-tech way of crushing ore - better than busting rock with a double-jack. This one was used during WWII.


Good article - thanks for posting it.

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Welcome to the grand illusion.

Yep, on topic...

 

[mdog]

In addition to sdcfia 's mention of extraction from ore , arrastra's were used in other areas early on. In the S.W. for sure.

A furnace could be built but often were used a while and likely for anyone who wanted to use it , for a small fee of course.
View attachment 1671797

I don't know if you have read this , and while Spanish are not your biggest question they had influence on another valuable commodity....

https://ir.uiowa.edu/cgi/viewconten....com/&httpsredir=1&article=1132&context=igsar

Thanks RC. That was a real good article. As you know, I like reading about the early French explorers. Most people think the colonial French were only interested in the fur trade, but they were looking for cities of gold, also, just like the Spanish. Two of them were Marquette and Joliet of Mississippi River fame.

 

[mdog]

When folks quit listening to whiskey talk and use their own noodles, most begin asking the same kind of questions as you do. Things are seldom as they seem, but snake oil salesmen have always done quite well, and deluded minds seldom let facts interfere with a good story. There is definitely something going on with your Wildcat project, IMO.

Yeah, family secrets have led to most quiet recoveries of cached valuables. If you knew that grampa used the posthole banking system, you might be in luck. It's all about degrees of separation. In the real world, anyway.

Most Spanish mining was for silver in Mexico, which was easy pickings and extremely lucrative for them. They generally used the patio process in the old days, which required crushing the ore and using mercury and salt to release the silver. Later, technology was improved and they added copper compounds to the soup. The resulting concentrates could then be smelted into bullion. The big mines had their own setups. There may have been a skosh of Mexican silver mining in today's US, I guess, if someone stumbled onto real easy pickings, but these folks were looking for gold, not silver.

Placer gold is the easiest to find and recover, but it also plays out fast. Using mercury greatly improved the recovery. It can be pretty easily cast into crude gold-alloy bars or transported as nuggets and dust. Free-milling gold ore is also what the early prospectors were looking for - visible raw gold contained in rock, often quartz. This has to be crushed as fine as possible, then the heavier gold removed by gravity using water. The concentrates, similar to placer gold, could be smelted or transported as is. This all took expertise, but was low-tech and could be done on the frontier if need be.

Thanks Sdc. The reason I asked is because I started reading this link last night and it seems that the Spanish officials had pretty tight control over all of the mining, just like you've written in the past.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=miun.ael1949.0001.001;view=1up;seq=3

I've spent a couple hours looking at the index, so I still have a lot of reading to do. If I'm understanding this correctly, it seems the mined gold had to be taken to a specific place to be processed and stamped. If that is so, then any unstamped bullion bars, found in a wilderness cache, would be in violation of the law, and maybe some type of smuggling operation. A cache that is in unprocessed form(ore) would probably be heading to the appropriate processing center, and stamped bars have probably been stamped in Mexico and being taken somewhere else away from Mexico.

You have written about treasure legends appearing at times, during the 20th century. If the old Spanish mine legends involve either gold or silver bars or gold or silver ore, it could be a clue of some type.

Just some thoughts before I get more into the article.

 

[sdcfia]

Thanks Sdc. The reason I asked is because I started reading this link last night and it seems that the Spanish officials had pretty tight control over all of the mining, just like you've written in the past.

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=miun.ael1949.0001.001;view=1up;seq=3

I've spent a couple hours looking at the index, so I still have a lot of reading to do. If I'm understanding this correctly, it seems the mined gold had to be taken to a specific place to be processed and stamped. If that is so, then any unstamped bullion bars, found in a wilderness cache, would be in violation of the law, and maybe some type of smuggling operation. A cache that is in unprocessed form(ore) would probably be heading to the appropriate processing center, and stamped bars have probably been stamped in Mexico and being taken somewhere else away from Mexico.

You have written about treasure legends appearing at times, during the 20th century. If the old Spanish mine legends involve either gold or silver bars or gold or silver ore, it could be a clue of some type.

Just some thoughts before I get more into the article.

Some of the tales do talk about high-grade ore. Often this was allegedly stashed in the mine it came from and the entrance sealed and camouflaged. Or so the stories go. As you know, I suspect most legends, if they are at all related to true events, are cover stories for more modern caching activities in the general vicinity. Not all legends, of course, but one has to wonder how a lost mine/hidden treasure story can contain useful information when "the Indians killed all the miners."

 

[mdog]

Some of the tales do talk about high-grade ore. Often this was allegedly stashed in the mine it came from and the entrance sealed and camouflaged. Or so the stories go. As you know, I suspect most legends, if they are at all related to true events, are cover stories for more modern caching activities in the general vicinity. Not all legends, of course, but one has to wonder how a lost mine/hidden treasure story can contain useful information when "the Indians killed all the miners."

Or one of them lives just long enough to give all the details needed to create the legend.

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

This thread got deep, and suddenly!

I’m only sure about the things that I have seen and touched, and the paths that I have walked.

Beyond that, I trust what others say that they have seen and touched, and the paths that they have walked. But I have boundaries about whom I trust completely.

#;0{>~

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Here ya go, Louis Osmer from Silver City, NM

 

[cyzak]

Here ya go, Louis Osmer from Silver City, NM

What and excellent interview thank you for posting that Crosse De Sign seems there was a lot of activity in that area by the Spanish mining and smelting and building vaults to hide there silver and gold.

 

[sdcfia]

I've got crosse ds on ignore, but I do see from your blue quote box that he posted one of Terry's interviews with Lou Osmer. Unfortunately, Lou passed away recently. He was the last of the old time prospectors in the mining district and quite a character. That panel of carvings in the video is one of about two dozen similar or identical ones located all around the US western states - many sites in UT, and also some in AZ, CO, ID, NV, WY, CA and two here in NM. Most sites are quite remote although many are near railroad lines. They're called Mystery Glyphs and are linked to treasure lore. Of course, I could be wrong.

I've been to these petroglyphs several times. The panel is pretty subtle and hard to find unless you know just where to look. It was chalked for the picture shown in the video.

 

[cyzak]

Ya I am going to have to go thru them interviews there is a whole lot of info from old Lou on that what amazing person he seems to be and such and awesome location.I wonder what mdog and Carl will have to say when he watches the video should bring him up to speed on a few things.

 

[mdog]

Here ya go, Louis Osmer from Silver City, NM

That was a good video, Crosse. Thanks for sharing. I have always liked talking to the old folks. Course, now a days, most of them are my age, or younger.

 

[mdog]

Ya I am going to have to go thru them interviews there is a whole lot of info from old Lou on that what amazing person he seems to be and such and awesome location.I wonder what mdog and Carl will have to say when he watches the video should bring him up to speed on a few things.

I thought it it was a great video. He had some interesting information about metallurgy. I enjoyed the part where he said some guys thought his personal carving was a treasure sign. I studied the placement of those mystery glyphs, a few years back, the stones I could get information on, that is. The eye symbol and the M, posted by Sdcfia, could be important clues.

 

[cyzak]

I thought it it was a great video. He had some interesting information about metallurgy. I enjoyed the part where he said some guys thought his personal carving was a treasure sign. I studied the placement of those mystery stones, a few years back, the stones I could get information on, that is. The eye symbol and the M, posted by Sdcfia, could be important clues.

There is 2 more parts that go along with that interview with Lou from Terry Carter watch those to it gets even better just go to youtube and put Louis Osmer in.

 

[sdcfia]

I thought it it was a great video. He had some interesting information about metallurgy. I enjoyed the part where he said some guys thought his personal carving was a treasure sign. I studied the placement of those mystery glyphs, a few years back, the stones I could get information on, that is. The eye symbol and the M, posted by Sdcfia, could be important clues.

That "M and eye" is repeated a number of times around the country. So are other symbols, including the Egyptian-looking ones. This site has lots of photos. http://www.mysteryglyphs.com

You might be interested, dog, that an acquaintance of mine in Utah theorizes that many of the mystery glyphs derive directly from the Ojibwa tribe of the upper midwest. And, by inference, the connection is via the KGC. I recall that Terry Carter's YouTube channel has a couple of videos on the subject, but I didn't bookmark them.