A2coins
Gold Member
Amazing thanks for sharing this
Tom´s Restorations
- Thread starter Tom_Restorer
- Start date
OP
OP
Tom_Restorer
Gold Member
- Oct 5, 2009
- 9,789
- 48,772
- Primary Interest:
- Other
- Thread starter
- #82
OP
OP
Tom_Restorer
Gold Member
- Oct 5, 2009
- 9,789
- 48,772
- Primary Interest:
- Other
- Thread starter
- #84
Black paint is removed - just need 2 minutes in acetone and everything was gone.
The silver color you see now is a corrosion inhibitor which is not to remove with acetone.
Last time I destroyed my entire electrolysis solution with this stuff! This time I clean it with air abrasion before I remove all remaining rust and put it in the electrolysis. The electrolysis was no longer working because the corrosion inhibitor - crazy stuff
All the pieces was just lying for 10 to 15 years in fresh water and never got an electrolysis. This is why they start to crack!
Because the parts of the grenade are cast iron, the material is very porous and the salt is everywhere in it.
Plug is also cleaned - sorry, not sharp on this photo.
It is still filled with black powder but this time it is very hard and not to clean up, so I think I let it in it.
The welding seams are good to see, even when it is still heavy encrusted with rust. They will come out nicely later.
The silver color you see now is a corrosion inhibitor which is not to remove with acetone.
Last time I destroyed my entire electrolysis solution with this stuff! This time I clean it with air abrasion before I remove all remaining rust and put it in the electrolysis. The electrolysis was no longer working because the corrosion inhibitor - crazy stuff
All the pieces was just lying for 10 to 15 years in fresh water and never got an electrolysis. This is why they start to crack!
Because the parts of the grenade are cast iron, the material is very porous and the salt is everywhere in it.
Plug is also cleaned - sorry, not sharp on this photo.
It is still filled with black powder but this time it is very hard and not to clean up, so I think I let it in it.
The welding seams are good to see, even when it is still heavy encrusted with rust. They will come out nicely later.
Attachments
xaos
Bronze Member
- Jul 3, 2018
- 1,062
- 2,302
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Tom, be very careful if it is still loaded...while the soak has been going on for a while, (perhaps it as never changed?) especially since you still not salt everywhere..I never trust that stuff...seen far too many cannon and weapons explode from the reaction. I'd rather have it out of there than wonder if it will ever go off.
You can dissolve the saltpeter in the blackpowder mix with a steam spray. I have used a water dental pick that a dentist uses to remove solid blackpowder, just feed it with boiling water. These water picks are actually quite handy for restoration work, as one can imagine, getting between teeth, in fact many dental tools are helpful.
(Acetone will create a hard film.)
Good luck. Keep posting!
You can dissolve the saltpeter in the blackpowder mix with a steam spray. I have used a water dental pick that a dentist uses to remove solid blackpowder, just feed it with boiling water. These water picks are actually quite handy for restoration work, as one can imagine, getting between teeth, in fact many dental tools are helpful.
(Acetone will create a hard film.)
Good luck. Keep posting!
Last edited:
OP
OP
Tom_Restorer
Gold Member
- Oct 5, 2009
- 9,789
- 48,772
- Primary Interest:
- Other
- Thread starter
- #86
-
There is real no chance this stuff goes off ! The black powder is completely dead after lying for such a long time in salt water.
OP
OP
Tom_Restorer
Gold Member
- Oct 5, 2009
- 9,789
- 48,772
- Primary Interest:
- Other
- Thread starter
- #87
CATASTROPHE !! 
Look what´s happen after one more night in Acetone. Fallen complete apart...
Most of this parts was fixed with glue and some other fragments cracked new because the salt.
Anyway, now I can clean the cracks with air abrasion from salt and Akaganeit and clean it from in- and outside until small areas of metal appears to put all pieces together in a steel net and in electrolysis.
Before this happen I let them for a while in alkaline solution. This makes it easier to wash out all bad stuff in electrolysis.
On the second pic you can see what nice surface it well get later. The alkaline solution made it possible to scratch this area clean just with a scalpel.
You can see on the thickness of some parts that there is a layer of rust mixed with gun powder which is up to half an inch thick. All this stuff must be cleaned away for doing a proper electrolysis.
Look what´s happen after one more night in Acetone. Fallen complete apart...
Most of this parts was fixed with glue and some other fragments cracked new because the salt.
Anyway, now I can clean the cracks with air abrasion from salt and Akaganeit and clean it from in- and outside until small areas of metal appears to put all pieces together in a steel net and in electrolysis.
Before this happen I let them for a while in alkaline solution. This makes it easier to wash out all bad stuff in electrolysis.
On the second pic you can see what nice surface it well get later. The alkaline solution made it possible to scratch this area clean just with a scalpel.
You can see on the thickness of some parts that there is a layer of rust mixed with gun powder which is up to half an inch thick. All this stuff must be cleaned away for doing a proper electrolysis.
Attachments
OP
OP
Tom_Restorer
Gold Member
- Oct 5, 2009
- 9,789
- 48,772
- Primary Interest:
- Other
- Thread starter
- #88
Here you can see the crystalline structure of the cast iron which looks a bit golden and a little bit from it´s structure like pyrite.
The pieces are now again in solution but I will make a better pic in a few days!
I never saw this before. The structure goes everywhere straight from in- to outside and if this was wanted and done by intention, this pieces crack open nice when the grenade goes off!!
The pieces are now again in solution but I will make a better pic in a few days!
I never saw this before. The structure goes everywhere straight from in- to outside and if this was wanted and done by intention, this pieces crack open nice when the grenade goes off!!
Attachments
OP
OP
Tom_Restorer
Gold Member
- Oct 5, 2009
- 9,789
- 48,772
- Primary Interest:
- Other
- Thread starter
- #90
I guess that is bad news / good news Tom ? Now it will have your own "personal" touch to it. You will make it good again !
-
It´s not real bad news Buddy. As I said, now I can deal with the problems it has and I can properly restore it to make it real stable!
xaos
Bronze Member
- Jul 3, 2018
- 1,062
- 2,302
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Crystalline structure of cast iron:
They would have kept these heated in the mold for a while to let the crystalline structure grow. The combination of ductile and brittle structure would let it blow apart and fragment, rather than just in half or powder.
Look at the way it fell apart, a perfect grenade! (at least you know you have all of the pieces. This could be valuable research information or for recovery/archeological operations, one knows they have grenade fragments, and to look for more, not just toss the pieces.
This one seems to be of much different construction than the last one. (2 pieces brazed together) I dont see that structure in this one. Same timeframe and/or location?
Too bad all of this knowledge of metal working, black smithing and gold smithing have been lost. We probably would have a difficult time recreating these today.
Good luck.
They would have kept these heated in the mold for a while to let the crystalline structure grow. The combination of ductile and brittle structure would let it blow apart and fragment, rather than just in half or powder.
Look at the way it fell apart, a perfect grenade! (at least you know you have all of the pieces. This could be valuable research information or for recovery/archeological operations, one knows they have grenade fragments, and to look for more, not just toss the pieces.
This one seems to be of much different construction than the last one. (2 pieces brazed together) I dont see that structure in this one. Same timeframe and/or location?
Too bad all of this knowledge of metal working, black smithing and gold smithing have been lost. We probably would have a difficult time recreating these today.
Good luck.
Last edited:
OP
OP
Tom_Restorer
Gold Member
- Oct 5, 2009
- 9,789
- 48,772
- Primary Interest:
- Other
- Thread starter
- #92
-
Xaos, that´s a good find! All the time I am thinking this structure can not be "natural"!
This grenade was also brazed together but it is not real to see with all the corrosion. It comes from the same ship as the other one! It is also clearly to see on that special shaped plugs. If you compare it to all other known wooden plugs, you will see that this are different from all others.
xaos
Bronze Member
- Jul 3, 2018
- 1,062
- 2,302
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Tom,
When you cool a metal quickly, the crystalline structure does not have a chance to form. What you are doing is really great to advance the understanding of metallurgy and forging of the day, and to identify different techniques of manufacture.
The brazing may have required them to preheat the 2 sides, perhaps on purpose, or inadvertently forming a better fragmentation matrix.
I really hope you get a chance to PXRF the fragments. I am willing to bet with that structure, you will find they were adding some graphite to the mix. There are many of these devices in use in Germany, especially in the environmental business, used to identify cleanup of heavy metal contamination. Perhaps find one ans ask then to shoot it for you.
Thanks again for sharing your incredible work.
When you cool a metal quickly, the crystalline structure does not have a chance to form. What you are doing is really great to advance the understanding of metallurgy and forging of the day, and to identify different techniques of manufacture.
The brazing may have required them to preheat the 2 sides, perhaps on purpose, or inadvertently forming a better fragmentation matrix.
I really hope you get a chance to PXRF the fragments. I am willing to bet with that structure, you will find they were adding some graphite to the mix. There are many of these devices in use in Germany, especially in the environmental business, used to identify cleanup of heavy metal contamination. Perhaps find one ans ask then to shoot it for you.
Thanks again for sharing your incredible work.
Last edited:
PetesPockets55
Bronze Member
- Apr 18, 2013
- 1,700
- 3,045
- Detector(s) used
- AT MAX & Carrot, Nokta Pulse Dice (:
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Xaos, is this device used to determine the elemental composition of a metal or alloy?
If so, scrap metal recycling centers or even Pawn shops might have one they might be willing to use on it.
And I'm in complete agreement on his incredible work.
OP
OP
Tom_Restorer
Gold Member
- Oct 5, 2009
- 9,789
- 48,772
- Primary Interest:
- Other
OP
OP
Tom_Restorer
Gold Member
- Oct 5, 2009
- 9,789
- 48,772
- Primary Interest:
- Other
- Thread starter
- #97
-
Hi Buddy,
there are only a few people here who got this new 40.000$ XRF machines and they asking too high prices for analyses. Also most has the machines programmed on stuff they researching. So far I heard, there are basic versions (who can detect everything) but you have to by special expensive programs who can real detect all elements.
xaos
Bronze Member
- Jul 3, 2018
- 1,062
- 2,302
- Primary Interest:
- All Treasure Hunting
Yes, the devices are getting less expensive, and I have seen them in pawn shops, especially ones that advertise they buy gold and silver.
yes, that is correct, the prices have come down, but yes, the differences in price are the software packages. I have access to one that an environmental company uses for remediation work, and many times, there are enthusiastic people in these fields who wont mind shooting an artefact for you. (the Nitons work great!)
https://www.911metallurgist.com/blog/portable-xrf-analyzer-price
Tom, what you may consider is contacting a local Niton rep, they are always looking for some free press, and the archaeological measurement field is something they are marketing hard right now with the real vs fake in the art world going on. Perhaps a local museum may have some ideas.
Looking up blacksmith brazing, this was very interesting. They would have had to heat both halves to the melting temperature of the copper to braze the 2 pieces together. The brazing process is likely how the crystalline structure formed.
Last edited:
Dighere
Greenie
In for updates on leather pouch and broken grenade!
OP
OP
Tom_Restorer
Gold Member
- Oct 5, 2009
- 9,789
- 48,772
- Primary Interest:
- Other
- Thread starter
- #100
-
comes in the next weeks!
Here is how the grenade looks at the moment. Fixed together but parts of it needs air abrasion than the cracks will be filled with colored epoxy and it gets also a complete epoxy layer from inside to make it more stable. At the moment I can not make air abrasion because I renovate and rearrange my lab.
Top Member Reactions
-
2744 -
2019 -
1598 -
1583 -
1108 -
1072 -
1031 -
978 -
892 -
839 -
769 -
520 -
493 -
463 -
404 -
383 -
E
378
-
345 -
341 -
306
