tickets and fines for detecting

[ScubaDetector]

I have been given three citations for diving and detecting. ALL three were bogus (One I demanded before I left) and all three were tossed out of court.

If I am told to leave a spot by ANY officer, I will refuse to unless I get a citation. So I know first hand it does happen.

I DOUBT I still have a copy of any ticket. I got one in Livingston County Michigan, One in Macomb County Michigan and one in West Bloomfield Township Michigan. One was threatened in St. Clair County and another in Macomb county, but they never were issued.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

I have been given three citations for diving and detecting. ALL three were bogus (One I demanded before I left) and all three were tossed out of court.

If I am told to leave a spot by ANY officer, I will refuse to unless I get a citation. So I know first hand it does happen.

I DOUBT I still have a copy of any ticket. I got one in Livingston County Michigan, One in Macomb County Michigan and one in West Bloomfield Township Michigan. One was threatened in St. Clair County and another in Macomb county, but they never were issued.

Scuba, yet go figure: You were a cop in previous years. So perhaps to you this is something not scary. And you have a tough skin, etc... But to a lot of other folks, not immersed in such things, they are scared of any such "tickets". And the gloomy procedure, blah blah. So the average person is not going to take your route as anything "inviting" or easy-to glide through.

HOWEVER, you bring up a good point: That as scary as everyone seems to think a "ticket" is (as if it's the end of the world), yet there are times when, as you say, it works out for the better to clarify it (for future precedent). While I would not recommend this (since someone could get a bee-in-their-bonnet to invent a specific law), yet I have heard of cases, like yours, where it turned out for-the-better.

Example in the next post:

 

[Tom_in_CA]

A guy I heard got a ticket for md'ing in a city park in San Francisco. He decided to fight it. He sat his turn in the cattle-call court line-up on his appointed day. When it came his turn to speak, he launched into his rehearsed explanation/objection:

"Your honor, I don't know what this is all about. I was only metal detecting for loose change in the park. Doing no damage, leaving no trace. I had checked ahead of time, and saw that there was no rules or laws prohibiting. Yet the next thing I know, this cop is here.....".

Before he could even finish, the judge glances down at his paperwork, bangs his gavel, and says "dismissed". In 30 seconds, it was all over. The md'r took his paperwork, with the "dismissed" stamped on it, and told his friends the end-result. A few of them asked for xerox copies of that, to carry with them, in case they were ever hassled.

So it sort of became the in-house joke, that those of us who hunted SF parks wanted a copy of his ticket, to carry as if it were some sort of carte-blanche, haha. We all got a good laugh out of that

 

[cudamark]

I have been given three citations for diving and detecting. ALL three were bogus (One I demanded before I left) and all three were tossed out of court.

If I am told to leave a spot by ANY officer, I will refuse to unless I get a citation. So I know first hand it does happen.

I DOUBT I still have a copy of any ticket. I got one in Livingston County Michigan, One in Macomb County Michigan and one in West Bloomfield Township Michigan. One was threatened in St. Clair County and another in Macomb county, but they never were issued.

What were the citations for? Detecting? Diving? The area is not posted as being prohibited for such an activity?

 

[ScubaDetector]

What were the citations for? Detecting? Diving? The area is not posted as being prohibited for such an activity?

1, Diving without a flag while detecting a small pond, no boats with motors allowed. (Long story)
2. Trespassing in a lake while detecting (The one I demanded)
3. No light on my boat at night. (I was underwater detecting, no light required)

Threatened but NOT given were two other trespassing which I knew I was absolutely in the right and argued with the officers.

 

[cudamark]

So, none of them were for detecting. Just diving, boating, and trespassing violations......correct?

 

[ScubaDetector]

So, none of them were for detecting. Just diving, boating, and trespassing violations......correct?

Yes. I was detecting each time. I only came in the discussion because trespassing was part of the conversation.

 

[cudamark]

Gotcha, thanks.

 

[Dirt_Hunter]

The reason these battlefields are left untouched by archeologists is because they want to be respectful... However, all they are doing is letting the relics sit and be forgotten in the ground.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... However, all they are doing is letting the relics sit and be forgotten in the ground.

Ah but you don't know their come-back lines very well then.

Your logic works like this: "What the heck harm does it do, to remove a barber dime or buffalo nickel from that forest or desert ? Obviously it is going to rot to eternity. And obviously EVEN THE MOST WELL-FUNDED park's dept. archies, will NEVER have enough time to find all the artifacts.

I mean, duh: They take weeks to do little 6' x 6' pits, digging with tweezers and paint-brushes. So logically: It would take them a million years to cover the entire acreage of a single state park. Right? So what the heck do they care ?

Have I spelled your sentiments correctly ? Well here's there comback answer:

"How do YOU know exactly where an archie would/might dig a pit 1000 yrs. from now ? They *might* put a pit a the exact spot you dug that buffalo nickel from. And then you have "ripped the item from context" and "deprived future generations from learning/knowing about their past" .

Take for example the pyramids of Egypt: No one would argue with the right of casual armchair hobbyists to pillage around the base of those. Right ? But a mile or two up stream or downstream of there, should be ok and innocuous, right ? There are worker-villages, that housed the workers who apparently built the pyramids, miles from the actual pyramids themselves. And they are currently digging at THOSE sites. And finding lots of great information on the daily lives, practices, customs, tools used, etc.... from digging there.

Prior to the discovery of those ancient village sites, someone could have brought up the same argument as you are doing here. Eg.: "what's the harm? No one will ever dig an archie pit here !" But as you can see: YOU NEVER KNOW. 1000 or 10,000 yrs, from now, you can't say for certain where a future archie may or may not dig.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Also for dirt-hunter:


Let's be perfectly honest: If the govt. *did* try to differentiate on true ground zero sensitive stuff vs innocuous. And *did* start to say: "Ok, you can hunt everywhere else in the forest, desert, beach, etc...". Then you know FULL WELL what would happen next: Md'rs would be perpetually "pushing the envelope" on how close we can get to cool old sites. Ie.: is it 100 ft. ? 1000 ft? Etc.... And would be perpetually pushing the envelope on what constitutes sites of a truly sensitive historic nature. Random cellar holes in the middle of nowhere ? A CCC camp from the 1930s ? etc...

So you can hardly blame them for just "making it simple". And saying "border to border."

 

[Honest Samuel]

Tom, your great interesting comment total confused me.

 

[aamkajutsu]

Close encounter with LEO:
So, the other day I'm at a little city park watching my son and daughter-in-law practice for an upcoming softball game. I walked over to where the rules for the park were posted and there was nothing about detecting so I went back to the car and geared up.

A little while went by and I had found some clad including 3 quarters in one hole by the swing set. I was about to dig a plug on a nice grassy area when I heard someone yell "HEY"! I looked up to see a LEO coming directly at me while wagging his finger and telling me I couldn't dig in the park. I replaced my plug and explained that I hadn't seen it posted so I decided to proceed; especially since I was replacing my plugs, etc. He said it wasn't posted but it wasn't allowed. He explained that the mayor had seen me and freaked out.

Anyway, we chatted for a few minutes and he said that he would suggest that they post it with the other park rules to make it easier on everyone.

When I returned home I decided to log on to the city's website to see exactly what the ordinance stated. To my surprise there wasn't anything in the city ordinances pertaining to metal detecting. The only thing that I could find that might pertain was a passage that said that it was illegal to cut any turf in the park.

So the question I have for the forum is this: do I just refrain from md'ing in that park or do I print out the city park rules and ordinances to show to the LEO if he stops me again... or do I ask the city clerk for permission... or??

Thoughts??

 

[Deft Tones]

The prohibition on cutting of turf likely was intended to cover sod removal.... like to steal some for your own yard.

It's up to you if you wish to argue before a judge the intent of that law. If you're willing to do so, detect until cited.

 

[Fletch88]

The problem was when you "geared up". In this case you should carry a small probe or flat tipped screwdriver only and a pinpointer in a small pouch. This way you don't look like you are geared up to go do a Rambo scene. Also I ONLY hunt these type places at daybreak or right after dark to avoid the whole situation to start with. Some call it sneaking around but IMO avoiding the lookie lou is worth going at low traffic times.
Now by exercising you right and chatting with the officer there will surely be singnage/ ordinances in place so you cannot even posses a detector in the park!

 

[cudamark]

I wouldn't ask anyone if I can or can't. If there isn't a prohibition against detecting, I go for it.........at odd hours......like Fletch said.....early morning or late evening when few people are around to complain. Fighting city hall is asking for an ordinance against detecting on all city owned property. Not something you want to see. Better they don't know you exist.

 

[aamkajutsu]

All I had was my detector w/headphones, pin-pointer and garrett edge digger. ... that what I meant by gearing up.

The biggest problem with this particular park is that it shares a common parking lot with city hall and the police department.

 

[Fletch88]

Yes that usually will draw some attention! LOL. I may not carry anything there related to detecting especially since it's next door to City Hall and police dept! I have talked to a couple deputies while I was getting ready to detect and they have me advice on where to look on the school property I was about to hunt. No way I would want to be right by a whole shift of them or city hall and try to detect in peace.

 

[aamkajutsu]

The thing that was really interesting is that it was my third outing there in the past 3 weeks. I ended up with a pound of change. ... literally, I think I have a pound of change on my desk from that park. I didn't even spend much time going through since it was all clad. In fact, I was starting to get bored with all of the clad so I decided to start digging the deep stuff. That's when all heck broke out.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Close encounter with LEO:
So, the other day I'm at a little city park watching my son and daughter-in-law practice for an upcoming softball game. I walked over to where the rules for the park were posted and there was nothing about detecting so I went back to the car and geared up.

A little while went by and I had found some clad including 3 quarters in one hole by the swing set. I was about to dig a plug on a nice grassy area when I heard someone yell "HEY"! I looked up to see a LEO coming directly at me while wagging his finger and telling me I couldn't dig in the park. I replaced my plug and explained that I hadn't seen it posted so I decided to proceed; especially since I was replacing my plugs, etc. He said it wasn't posted but it wasn't allowed. He explained that the mayor had seen me and freaked out.

Anyway, we chatted for a few minutes and he said that he would suggest that they post it with the other park rules to make it easier on everyone.

When I returned home I decided to log on to the city's website to see exactly what the ordinance stated. To my surprise there wasn't anything in the city ordinances pertaining to metal detecting. The only thing that I could find that might pertain was a passage that said that it was illegal to cut any turf in the park.

So the question I have for the forum is this: do I just refrain from md'ing in that park or do I print out the city park rules and ordinances to show to the LEO if he stops me again... or do I ask the city clerk for permission... or??

Thoughts??

Thanx for posting your encounter. A few thoughts:

The LEO is right: There need not be any sign. And yes, he/they can, at their discretion, morph something and claim that md'ing falls afoul of it. Laws/rules like "cut" , or "deface", or "dig", or "alter", or "annoy", "take" "remove", etc..... Because laws are always written vaguely, so as to fit various circumstances that may arise in the field. Because it's impossible to write *exact* laws, for every last nuance or oddity that might occur. So that's why, for example, there's laws that forbid "annoyances", blah blah. Yes quite ambiguous. And yes could allow for arbitrary and capricious application on the part of an LEO. But it simply has to be that way. Otherwise cops would forever be arguing semantics with all sorts of yahoos in the field.

Eg.: "but officer, I wasn't technically nude in public, since I was wearing a single sock", blah blah

But on the other hand, JUST BECAUSE something could be construed to forbid md'ing, DOESN'T mean we all need to go grovelling for permission at every park we come to. Or that it automatically applies, until given a princely blessing to the contrary. We just have to realize that we're in a hobby with admitted connotations. Eg.: that you might be about to 'take something' or 'leave a hole', etc...

Thus unfortunately, we're in a hobby where you need to use a little discretion, and not swat hornet's nests. Ie.: pick low traffic times and avoid those who might gripe. Because you're never going to convert them, and get them to roll out red carpets for you. In fact, you can see from your own experience that it's quite the opposite. Because you say that now they're going to consider adding "no md'ing" to the list of rules on the sign there (hence making it official. Rather than a single fluke 'scram'). Why ? Because you dutifully informed him that it wasn't of the list of rules. Hence the wheels of his brain start to turn, resulting in the "rule to invent, that will address this pressing issue".

As Fletch88 alludes to: a park right next to city hall and the police dept. combined, is a risky place. If ANY place were going to generate a scram, that's high on the list. Parks like that I strictly hunt at night. So peaceful. So serene