tickets and fines for detecting

[Tom_in_CA]

.... they would come in the morning and find large holes all over the battlefield unfilled.....

Rogerv, if anyone TODAY NOW were to ask NPS peopLe (archies ) :

"Why can't I/we detect Gettysburg?"

The answer would most certainly be: "Because of cultural heritage concerns". Right ? But look closely at your own post. If what your NPS worker friend says was accurate, it is VERY telling on the evolution of things:

The unfilled holes were the cause. NOT specifically that it was turf damage, but that it just became a giant neon sign for the park's people in the morning to realize: "people are md'ing".

Therefore a part of me wonders if: If those guys HADN''T left holes advertising themselves, and seeing as how they were going at night (therefore also not visible), then perhaps md'ing would never have been so thought of or noticed?

Thus durned those md'rs who left holes, eh ? If we md'rs would stop making such a lightening rod drawing attention to ourselves, then probably 1/2 of all of-flimits sites, would never have been off-limits to begin with!

 

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[Clay Diggins]

Rogerv, if anyone TODAY NOW were to ask NPS peopLe (archies ) :

"Why can't I/we detect Gettysburg?"

The answer would most certainly be: "Because of cultural heritage concerns". Right ? But look closely at your own post. If what your NPS worker friend says was accurate, it is VERY telling on the evolution of things:

The unfilled holes were the cause. NOT specifically that it was turf damage, but that it just became a giant neon sign for the park's people in the morning to realize: "people are md'ing".

Therefore a part of me wonders if: If those guys HADN''T left holes advertising themselves, and seeing as how they were going at night (therefore also not visible), then perhaps md'ing would never have been so thought of or noticed?

Thus durned those md'rs who left holes, eh ? If we md'rs would stop making such a lightening rod drawing attention to ourselves, then probably 1/2 of all of-flimits sites, would never have been off-limits to begin with!

Tom you are a wonder. I've pointed out several times before that detecting all National Parks is illegal because Congress passed laws to protect National Parks. Not because of holes or any other action of detectorists. No matter what local theory or rumor may be passed around it's always been illegal to detect or dig in National Parks.

Sorry if the facts don't fit your view of the world. Here are the facts about detecting in National Parks again.

Title 36 - Parks, Forests, and Public Property
CHAPTER I—NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
§ 2.1
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, the following is prohibited:
(7) Possessing or using a mineral or metal detector, magnetometer, side scan sonar, other metal detecting device, or subbottom profiler.
This paragraph does not apply to:
(i) A device broken down and stored or packed to prevent its use while in park areas.
(ii) Electronic equipment used primarily for the navigation and safe operation of boats and aircraft.
(iii) Mineral or metal detectors, magnetometers, or subbottom profilers used for authorized scientific, mining, or administrative activities.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tom you are a wonder. I've pointed out several times before that detecting all National Parks is illegal because Congress passed laws to protect National Parks. Not because of holes or any other action of detectorists. No matter what local theory or rumor may be passed around it's always been illegal to detect or dig in National Parks.

Sorry if the facts don't fit your view of the world. Here are the facts about detecting in National Parks again.

Title 36 - Parks, Forests, and Public Property
CHAPTER I—NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
§ 2.1
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, the following is prohibited:
(7) Possessing or using a mineral or metal detector, magnetometer, side scan sonar, other metal detecting device, or subbottom profiler.
This paragraph does not apply to:
(i) A device broken down and stored or packed to prevent its use while in park areas.
(ii) Electronic equipment used primarily for the navigation and safe operation of boats and aircraft.
(iii) Mineral or metal detectors, magnetometers, or subbottom profilers used for authorized scientific, mining, or administrative activities.

clay, the question of illegality was not being questioned. Everything you're saying is not in question. And I have no doubt that EVEN BEFORE those holes were seen, that it was *already* illegal at that exact spot. I mean, duh, go figure: Gettysburg is about as sensitive a historic monument as you can get, right ?

So don't get me wrong, I agree with you. I am just pointing out that based on rogerv's post, it was the HOLES that simply drew MORE "ire" and "awareness" of the supposed evils of md'ing.

Perhaps gettysburg and NPS is a bad example of the pyschology in action. But the psychology of "visibility" being the genesis of laws/rules does occur elsewhere on other levels. Where .... no one ever had a problem and no laws existed. Until the day came that someone waltzed himself right in front of bored archies, or left holes advertising the fact that "md'rs were here". Then presto: a law is born.

But you're right in this case: The law pre-existed those holes. But was just saying that the animosity and awareness just get front attention (and perhaps the long distance motion detectors now to "catch those scofflaws"), when some dingbat goes to leave holes.

 

[cudamark]

Tom you are a wonder. I've pointed out several times before that detecting all National Parks is illegal because Congress passed laws to protect National Parks. Not because of holes or any other action of detectorists. No matter what local theory or rumor may be passed around it's always been illegal to detect or dig in National Parks.

Sorry if the facts don't fit your view of the world. Here are the facts about detecting in National Parks again.

Title 36 - Parks, Forests, and Public Property
CHAPTER I—NATIONAL PARK SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
§ 2.1
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, the following is prohibited:
(7) Possessing or using a mineral or metal detector, magnetometer, side scan sonar, other metal detecting device, or subbottom profiler.
This paragraph does not apply to:
(i) A device broken down and stored or packed to prevent its use while in park areas.
(ii) Electronic equipment used primarily for the navigation and safe operation of boats and aircraft.
(iii) Mineral or metal detectors, magnetometers, or subbottom profilers used for authorized scientific, mining, or administrative activities.

I may be wrong, but, I find it hard to believe that the newly enacted "National Parks" came with prohibitions against metal detecting and digging from day one. Many of our National Parks were founded before there were any metal detectors. Were the politicians psychic? It's much more believable that the politicians did what they do now, and that is to react to a pressing issue brought to them after a "problem" is discovered. Thinking ahead was never their strong suit.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I may be wrong, but, I find it hard to believe that the newly enacted "National Parks" came with prohibitions against metal detecting and digging from day one. Many of our National Parks were founded before there were any metal detectors. Were the politicians psychic? It's much more believable that the politicians did what they do now, and that is to react to a pressing issue brought to them after a "problem" is discovered. Thinking ahead was never their strong suit.

You are right cudamark. The first National Park was in 1872, first metal detector was 1890 and the prohibition against metal detecting and digging in National Parks wasn't until 1938.

Are you suggesting that timeline fits your theory that National Parks prohibit metal detecting and digging because some detectorist in 1936 dug a hole and didn't fill it?

I'm interested now, it sounds like a fascinating story from the past. Please share the details of this legendary hole that caused National Parks to be closed to metal detecting.

 

[cudamark]

That wasn't MY theory, but, it certainly sounds plausible. If nobody was caught digging, why would they think it necessary to prohibit it? I was responding to your proclamation that "it's always been illegal to detect or dig in National Parks", which just simply isn't true.

 

[Bumpstick]

I wish I never saw this thread, You guys make me feel like some kind of criminal for having a detector in my truck. What am I going to do

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I wish I never saw this thread, You guys make me feel like some kind of criminal for having a detector in my truck. What am I going to do

Send me all your detectors and all your finds , and I will absolve you of all guilt .

 

[Gold_FInger]

I wish I never saw this thread, You guys make me feel like some kind of criminal for having a detector in my truck. What am I going to do

Simply. do not dig in a National Park....Good law

 

[treebound]

So basically, if I'm traveling cross country, or cross state, or to nearby states, I should probably keep my metal detector the same as a firearm and have it encased, unloaded (batteries removed) and out of immediate reach or resonably easy access if my travels might take me through a National Park. Fair enough.

(Side note, I think I used to be a member on this site numerous years ago, but couldn't remember my old user name, plus it was probably with some now defunct email address from a job long gone. Anyway, I'll post a howdy eventually.)

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

So basically, if I'm traveling cross country, or cross state, or to nearby states, I should probably keep my metal detector the same as a firearm and have it encased, unloaded (batteries removed) and out of immediate reach or resonably easy access if my travels might take me through a National Park. Fair enough.

(Side note, I think I used to be a member on this site numerous years ago, but couldn't remember my old user name, plus it was probably with some now defunct email address from a job long gone. Anyway, I'll post a howdy eventually.)

I have had metal detector in several National parks including Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, Grand Canyon, Glacer, told rangers I had it, all I was told to do was remove the batteries and not use it while in the parks per rangers. Have carried loaded pistol through multiple states, never unloaded it. An unloaded firearm is useless...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... if I'm traveling cross country, or cross state, or to nearby states, I should probably keep my metal detector the same as a firearm and have it encased, unloaded (batteries removed) and out of immediate reach or resonably easy access if my travels might take me through a National Park.....

I have had metal detector in several National parks including Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, Grand Canyon, Glacer, told rangers I had it, all I was told to do was remove the batteries and not use it while in the parks per rangers....

I've seen posts from folks saying that if you-so-much-as even possess (even to have) a detector in your car, trunk, etc... while traveling through a national park, that you'll be ticketed, arrested, fined, etc... Yet no one ever seemed to be able to cite an incident of such a thing ever happening. Doh!

Unless you're stopped for something else (speeding, DUI, etc...), why would anyone ever be riffling through your back seat or trunk anyhow ?? And even if someone did see (gasp) a detector in your vehicle, if you were not using it at sensitive historical sites, then most certainly they have bigger fish to fry. I mean, does anyone really think that someone's going to think "let me check to see if the batteries are out or not" ? Anyone know of such a "battery check" ever having been performed?

Some national parks have roads going through them, and it's the only way to get from point A to point B.

 

[cudamark]

I have had metal detector in several National parks including Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, Grand Canyon, Glacer, told rangers I had it, all I was told to do was remove the batteries and not use it while in the parks per rangers. Have carried loaded pistol through multiple states, never unloaded it. An unloaded firearm is useless...

Well, not totally useless, but, it has about the same weapon power as a rock. If displayed, it might deter someone however. After all, THEY don't know it's unloaded!

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Well, not totally useless, but, it has about the same weapon power as a rock. If displayed, it might deter someone however. After all, THEY don't know it's unloaded!

True even though mine are never unloaded, may have spent shells but not unloaded...

I make sure all my vacations and trips are to or through states that honor Florida's conceal carry permit....

 

[cudamark]

Same here, when possible. I never did get the Florida one......only Ca, Ut, and Az. Sure would be nice to only have to get one that would cover the whole U.S.

 

[ChampFerguson/TN]

Sorry for dredging up an old thread (but that's what the Inturweb is for isn't it?) and know that I am not taking a stand on the specific discussed here.

The problem with wanting verifiable examples of minor tickets/warnings/etc is that those kinds of things Do Not make the written or broadcast news for someone to look up a link for. I personally know of people who have been warned about picking up arrowheads on TVA lake beds. I have spoken with law enforcement friends who know how Their friends at TVA LE behave(not good, theyre mostly *******s). Any of that make the local news or national papers? Of course not.

But when I offer an example that someone asks for (such as happened above), I am told, 'well, that's a aggregious case and doesn't apply to the discussion'. Well How Convenient.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Champ, yes, I have heard this line of logic you cite. If I attempt to show the rarity of actual supposed fears, of "arrests", "tickets", etc... (for detecting innocuous parks, forest, beach, etc... where no specific law exists), the answer you give is sometimes given: That there ARE cases of people being roughed up. However, those people are understandably embarrassed. And don't parade such things in posts, etc....

Well I suppose that could be true, but it seems to be an "argument from silence". And on the contrary, it seems to me, that human nature being what it is: bad news travels FAST, while good news travels slow. Eh ? Eg.: no one's posting to the effect of "I detected here in such & such forest, and didn't get hassled or ticketed". I mean, why would anyone post a "non-event" like that, in the first place ? However, there are VAST #'s of examples you can find on md'ing forums, where people DO INDEED post their angst about having been hassled, or ticketed. Or links to "scary stories" where it happened to someone. So it's not like all such examples are "hidden" and "hush hushed". But sure: there are probably some md'rs who don't make waves, and it didn't get in a link. Granted.

And in cases where tickets, confiscations, jail, fines, etc.... were legitimately linked or recounted, in each and every case there is usually always some weak link in the story, where a) the person had every way at his disposal to have known better. b) someone who can't take a warning, or was in some way being obnoxious. c) someone night sneaking obvious sensitive monuments.

So when I ask for examples of ticket or fines etc... for innocuous ordinary parks or beaches, to say that "examples don't exist because the victim prefers to keep quiet", doesn't square. If examples do exist that float around generously for federal monuments, night-raiders, etc.... then so too should examples exist (even if only a "trimmed list") for the innocuous ordinary parks I ask for examples on.

 

[cudamark]

It seems to me that the stories we hear of people being ticketed are all 3rd hand (I know someone personally who got a ticket). I'd like to hear from someone 1st hand who got one and can produce a copy of the citation. They can blank their name if they feel embarrassed. I too have heard stories from people I know who claim to have been given a ticket or they "know" someone who has, but, when pushed to produce such a ticket, they then change their story to: "well, they actually didn't write one this time, they just gave me a warning".

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Mark: I know of 2 persons who "got tickets".

One was a friend who was detecting a private farmer's field near a historic site. When he was done, he turned of his machine, slung it over his shoulder, and made the hike back out to his truck. In doing so, he pass over a corner of state park property (an admitted historic sensitive monument was nearby). It was just vacant land, that he didn't even know was within the state's boundaries. Since the actual structure ..... one of the CA missions, was a block and a half away ! A ranger stopped him and popped him.

At first, my friend told him the obvious, that 1) He wasn't detecting . And had only been detecting legally on the farmer's land nearby, and 2) that he didn't know this was state land he was crossing . It had only been acquired for state park expansion just a year earlier, and was still nothing but a weed-choked pasture ! But to no avail, the ranger wouldn't listen.

My friend was going to fight it, since he was very honest that he wasn't detecting. However, he lives several hours away. And when he got the ticket, and saw that it was a measily $150-ish, it was obviously much cheaper just to pay it, than to fight it. Which would mean he'd have to take a day off work, etc... to appear, drive all day, etc...

The 2nd ticket was at a federal institution that was .... admittedly .... sensitive and historical. In that case, my friends could have known better. But they took their chances anyhow And like the first case, the ticket was a silly $100 to $200-ish. My friend (who isn't lacking for $$ in his personal budget), got a good laugh out of that, and concluded that if ... in his 20 yrs. of detecting, all he ever had to pay for having hunted lots of great old sites, was a single ticket of this insignificance, that he would do it all again, and take the same risks. It wasn't worth fighting, and he admittedly knew he was pushing his luck

 

[cudamark]

There again, not that I don't believe you, where are these people who have supposedly gotten these tickets? Why can't they come forward and produce a copy of the ticket showing that they were sited for metal detecting in an area where detecting is not specifically prohibited? I have yet to see a copy of one. Now getting one in a known prohibited area is another story. They deserve one there if they have ignored a posted law. In your first example, had he gone to court, it probably would have been dismissed, since he didn't actually detect on a banned area, but, was just crossing the land. Your second example sounds like he deserved one for ignoring the law.